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abyrn wrote:
looking at the stats from NOVA I don't see how anyone can say that DA are in a good spot. They have a terrible win rate, as well as being second to last in average points.

I don't think that they are a terrible army, but the results demonstrate there are some glaring issues.

We know what those issues are:

1. Soup
2. Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood Angels will rank higher too not because they're a better ARMY but because they're a better soup ingredient.

 Stux wrote:

abyrn wrote:
looking at the stats from NOVA I don't see how anyone can say that DA are in a good spot. They have a terrible win rate, as well as being second to last in average points.

I don't think that they are a terrible army, but the results demonstrate there are some glaring issues.

We know what those issues are:

1. Soup
2. Marines

True, I think I'm just being salty lol

DA still have the best marine models so they can't be too terrible.

 ionusx wrote:
for the cost of belial you can have a captain with jump pack in artificers with a heavenfall blade and a storm shield and a storm bolter and you will SAVE points and have functionally the same baseline barring dueling knife, you can replace his sword if you want another weapon for added utility, nevermind replacing his gun. and all you sacrificed was a 2+ armor in exchange for a 3+ invul and you picked up free points to do it. in previous editions belial had the advantage of free weapons (even then i argued against it as for less points you could again build a better belial in the same melee weapons) but now he doesnt even have that.

Um, artificer armor? You sure you're playing 8th edition? That's not even an option anymore (and believe me, I wish it was, it might actually make me take a generic Master sometimes). Also, Belial doesn't have to pay for his weapons; it specifically says, in the points section at the back of the codex, that the named characters' costs include their wargear.

azreal costs a kings ransom in points and while his AoE buff is nice i dont look at just that. the sword of secrets is gak, his lions roar suffers from being a plasma gun that tries to actively kill him mid game, his baseline is only average and hes a foot marine who cannot deepstrike without a drop pod or fly transport, and who cannot keep up with other ground units youd normally want him around like ravenwings as an example because he only moves 6 and they move base 12. nevermind the fact that a chapter master somehow cant get better saves then a captain despite wearing stalwart fething protector and bearing the lions helm. he exists functionally as a PFG as he always has except now he costs exponentially more then he used too. and im aware that 8th jacked the prices on everything but in 7th he got a huge points jack and then they jacked him up further. somebody get this man a gun that doesnt kill him 25% of the time and we might have a conversation.

Where in the rules does it say that Azrael has to supercharge his gun every time he shoots it? Again, are we playing the same edition? I never supercharge him unless it's obvious he's going to die anyway (and I've had him survive and kill some nasty stuff before doing that). And how in God's green earth do you come up with that his points cost went up? He cost more points in 7th (and was useless back then). He's amazeballs now; easily the best Astartes character other than Bobby G himself (and for his points he's better than Bobby G!).

nobody has still picked a fight with me over veterans, guess we all agree thats a relic of a bygone age. good.

Veterans are not as bad as you say; they just don't look that good compared to other options (like Hellblasters or Devastators). The Marine statline just isn't what it used to be sadly, but that's a Space Marines issue, not a Dark Angels one.

I've come to the conclusion that you are just trolling, and I'm not sure why I'm taking the bait. Guess I must be bored this evening.

DA have some great strengths. WOTDA alone is amazing, and grim resolve helps encourage large squads. I have no reason not to believe DA will be better than BA after the September (October? November?) FAQ.

Process wrote:
As a codex marine player- i WISH i had some of the tools DA have available at their disposal.

I dont get how DA, BA and SW can say a thing about their codex when each one is basically Codex space marines plus a feth-tonne of awesome extra units, relics, stratagems etc.

Seriously, If dark angels are terrible, what does that make vanilla, none UM marines?

Vanilla marines are a dumpster fire outside of RG. Just because you’re the bottom of the barrel doesn’t mean the rest of us marine players aren’t the crust that forms the next layer above you in the bottom of the trash can. GK are obviously the ooze that’s leaking out the bottom of the trash can onto the floor.

 Stux wrote:

abyrn wrote:
looking at the stats from NOVA I don't see how anyone can say that DA are in a good spot. They have a terrible win rate, as well as being second to last in average points.

I don't think that they are a terrible army, but the results demonstrate there are some glaring issues.

We know what those issues are:

1. Soup
2. Marines


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood Angels will rank higher too not because they're a better ARMY but because they're a better soup ingredient.

This is so true. BA numbers are padded because our most bitter ingredient that will make the opponent choke on the soup is spammed to hell. That unit will be nerfed soon and mono BA will be exposed for what we’ve known it is all along; crappy marines.

At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

I'd definatly like to see some vanilla Marine unique units. oddly the return of Gulliman and Cawl allows GW to do this without it seeming odd, as a lot of the time in the past it's been a case of "so this thing marines have had since M 35, why don't blood angels have it?"

a brand new Cawl device that the b lood angels, dark angels etc decided to PASS ON though....

Vanilla Marines necessarily cannot have unique units.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Vanilla Marines necessarily cannot have unique units.

sure they can, I just described how they could.

They aren't vanilla if they have unique units.

You can't have unique vanilla. It is a contradiction in terms.

I have a mostly Biker army I played as White Scars last edition.

This edition has been UNkind to my Loyalist army, and I'm actually selling it off. But before reaching that decision I researched all possible alternative Marine bike lists to try, leading me to Ravenwing.

Lacking any Troops for a legit Battalion sealed the tomb on my collection, but it would have been nice to see Ravenwing represented by gaining additional CPs in their Outrider Detachment.

The Talon Master is pretty cool. I could have built one easily.

Sammael is pretty cool. I also had a conversion idea ready using a HH scimitar Jetbike.

Their Chapter Tactic is pretty damn cool. For a Plasma Infantry build. I have no infantry, but lots of Dark Vengeance bikes so plenty of Plasma, and they have that nifty Strategem just for that.

Things I didn't like though, no Thunder fire Cannons, and no Storm talons. Which was the other half of my Biker army.

Decided instead of trying to work out my Loyalists (with no interest in Primaris) it's time to sell them off.

I miss having my Ravenwing Bike Squadrons as Troops, but three boxes of Scouts would give you a Battalion for the CPs.

I can't believe that this thread is still going...I can't stop feeding it!!!!

The Ravenwing/White Scars/Saim-Hann bikers as Troops thing is previous edition thinking. Back in the days of the Force Organisation Chart, moving bikers to Troops was necessary to allow you to field an all-bike army as with the old Force Org you must field at least two Troops and are limited to three Fast Attacks. It was mechanically impossible to run an all-biker army without bikers being Troops.

(7th Ed Formations muddied the waters there a bit but 7th Ed army selection was a clusterf*** to a grotesque degree so it’s hardly a valid comparison.)

In 8th Edition you aren’t required to take any Troops at all, and you can readily field more Fast Attack choices than you could conceivably use with the Outrider Detachment. Mechanically, there are zero restrictions preventing an all-biker army. The only effect taking an all-biker army has is garnering less CP.

Bikers are better than their equivalent footsloggers as a general rule. Marine Bikers are better than Tacticals, Deathwing Knights are better than Veterans, Windriders are better than Guardians. Taking an all-biker army means taking only better units. The tradeoff is that for only picking specialist better units, you get less CP. 8th Ed army selection is far from perfect, but at least that component appears to be working as intended.

Asking to have bikers be Troops is saying ‘I want to take only better stuff and still be rewarded with lots of CP’. Which sounds awfully like ‘I want to have my cake and eat it too.’

Yep, detachments with purely the Ravenwing keyword, or Deathwing keyword should get rewarded with more CPs. GW really missing the mark on CP allocation.

kombatwombat wrote:
The Ravenwing/White Scars/Saim-Hann bikers as Troops thing is previous edition thinking. Back in the days of the Force Organisation Chart, moving bikers to Troops was necessary to allow you to field an all-bike army as with the old Force Org you must field at least two Troops and are limited to three Fast Attacks. It was mechanically impossible to run an all-biker army without bikers being Troops.

(7th Ed Formations muddied the waters there a bit but 7th Ed army selection was a clusterf*** to a grotesque degree so it’s hardly a valid comparison.)

In 8th Edition you aren’t required to take any Troops at all, and you can readily field more Fast Attack choices than you could conceivably use with the Outrider Detachment. Mechanically, there are zero restrictions preventing an all-biker army. The only effect taking an all-biker army has is garnering less CP.

Bikers are better than their equivalent footsloggers as a general rule. Marine Bikers are better than Tacticals, Deathwing Knights are better than Veterans, Windriders are better than Guardians. Taking an all-biker army means taking only better units. The tradeoff is that for only picking specialist better units, you get less CP. 8th Ed army selection is far from perfect, but at least that component appears to be working as intended.

Asking to have bikers be Troops is saying ‘I want to take only better stuff and still be rewarded with lots of CP’. Which sounds awfully like ‘I want to have my cake and eat it too.’

Why are bikes better?

 JNAProductions wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:
The Ravenwing/White Scars/Saim-Hann bikers as Troops thing is previous edition thinking. Back in the days of the Force Organisation Chart, moving bikers to Troops was necessary to allow you to field an all-bike army as with the old Force Org you must field at least two Troops and are limited to three Fast Attacks. It was mechanically impossible to run an all-biker army without bikers being Troops.

(7th Ed Formations muddied the waters there a bit but 7th Ed army selection was a clusterf*** to a grotesque degree so it’s hardly a valid comparison.)

In 8th Edition you aren’t required to take any Troops at all, and you can readily field more Fast Attack choices than you could conceivably use with the Outrider Detachment. Mechanically, there are zero restrictions preventing an all-biker army. The only effect taking an all-biker army has is garnering less CP.

Bikers are better than their equivalent footsloggers as a general rule. Marine Bikers are better than Tacticals, Deathwing Knights are better than Veterans, Windriders are better than Guardians. Taking an all-biker army means taking only better units. The tradeoff is that for only picking specialist better units, you get less CP. 8th Ed army selection is far from perfect, but at least that component appears to be working as intended.

Asking to have bikers be Troops is saying ‘I want to take only better stuff and still be rewarded with lots of CP’. Which sounds awfully like ‘I want to have my cake and eat it too.’

Why are bikes better?

JNA look at it bike get T5 2W and double the shooting how are they not better? The mobility is just the icing on the cake. Just totally ignore how they cost double or more then their comparable foot slogging unit and have a glaring issue vs multi wound guns and you to can see how they are the best unit in the codex.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Why are bikes better?

Taking Marine Bikers as an example, they have double the wounds but not double the Attacks (which is a broadly useless characteristic on Tactical Marines), T5 which gives them protection against the most common Strength value in the game (Str 4), and have an increased susceptibility to multi-damage weapons. All of that should make them a bit more expensive than Primaris Intercessors, who share the 2 Wounds but lack the T5. They then have more than double the Movement, and Flat Out a fixed 6”. Movement is the most valuable characteristic in the game, and by far and away the most consistently undervalued by GW. They go from a 9.5” move including Advancing per turn for Tacs, to a flat 20” for bikes. They should be way more expensive, but they’re less than double the cost.

It’s not even a points thing though. Points are transient this edition; you can’t say ‘bikers are a better or worse type of unit than Tacticals because they cost X’, all you can say is that ‘bikers’ current points value of X makes them this much better or worse than Tacticals, so they are under or over coated’. Trying not to think about points for the moment, bikers have more than double the firepower of Tacticals owing to having two of the same gun, plus special weapons on some without losing the original gun. They also have way more ability to use those guns due to their mobility, and can take chainswords instead of Bolt Pistols to boot.

Overall bikers are the far more effective and flexible unit concept. If they are too expensive for what they offer then the solution is to drop their points, not hand out CP for taking a more specialised army.

 ionusx wrote:




change my mind

Don't tell me what to do!

 Mmmpi wrote:

 ionusx wrote:




change my mind

Don't tell me what to do!

I'm afraid you were ninja'd some time ago :p

 IronBrand wrote:

 ionusx wrote:
change my mind

You can't tell me what to do. You're not my real mother.

Try comparing DA to Vanilla Marines. They have pretty much all the benefits plus unique units and rules that put them a cut above. I play marines and would switch to DA in a second except there are no centurions (which I have an irrational love for). Try to find the positives and exploit them and not focus one the negatives.

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

Baal Predators are currently trash and are easily outclassed by Razorbacks.

Int Chap + Reivers + Eye of the Unseen + Mind Wipe combo cripples characters like no other. Once you manifest, success rates are:

Against Ld 10: 75.00%
Against Ld 9: 83.33%
Against Ld 8: 91.67%
Against Ld 7: 97.22%
Against Ld 6: 100.00%

Best used on +4 BS/WS targets as by turn 2, it'll be hitting on 6+.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/745954.page

 skchsan wrote:
Int Chap + Reivers + Eye of the Unseen + Mind Wipe combo cripples characters like no other. Once you manifest, success rates are:

Against Ld 10: 75.00%
Against Ld 9: 83.33%
Against Ld 8: 91.67%
Against Ld 7: 97.22%
Against Ld 6: 100.00%

Best used on +4 BS/WS targets as by turn 2, it'll be hitting on 6+.

While I think mindwipe is a very cool power, the problem is that most often it would be way easier just to kill the model rather than stacking mind wipes.

That combo sounds like heaps of fun, if it all goes off it'd be sweet. Interrogator-chap with jump pack moves in 3" close for the eye's benefit, jump pack librarian hits them with mind wipe, then hit them with aversion, reivers moves within 3" shoots a shock grenade at them. With all the takes to hit the interrogator-chap, Libby and reivers should do well against a unit that can't be picked to fight till last.

Bremon wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

Baal Predators are currently trash and are easily outclassed by Razorbacks.

DA have special Land Speeders and Black Knights. You can even convert Repulsor to Land Raider and it looks very nice with LS Vengeance.

 Draco wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

Baal Predators are currently trash and are easily outclassed by Razorbacks.

DA have special Land Speeders and Black Knights. You can even convert Repulsor to Land Raider and it looks very nice with LS Vengeance.

While Ravening Land Speeders and Bikes are better than those of other chapters, I still think they are pretty poor. Just way too fragile for the points you pay. Plasma Inceptors are way better than Black Knights imo, still T5 and 2W, but being able to deep strike that much plasma changes everything!

Vengeance is also pretty underwhelming.

The best Ravenwing vehicles by far are the Dark Shroud and Darktalon.

 Stux wrote:

 Draco wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

Baal Predators are currently trash and are easily outclassed by Razorbacks.

DA have special Land Speeders and Black Knights. You can even convert Repulsor to Land Raider and it looks very nice with LS Vengeance.

While Ravening Land Speeders and Bikes are better than those of other chapters, I still think they are pretty poor. Just way too fragile for the points you pay. Plasma Inceptors are way better than Black Knights imo, still T5 and 2W, but being able to deep strike that much plasma changes everything!

Vengeance is also pretty underwhelming.

The best Ravenwing vehicles by far are the Dark Shroud and Darktalon.

Huh, I didn't noticed earlier that inceptors have 2d3 shooting attacks, not d3. You are correct, BKs are outclassed. I just don't like looks of primaris models.

 Draco wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Draco wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 mew28 wrote:
At least BA get the baal predator would love to have that for my Iron hands.

Baal Predators are currently trash and are easily outclassed by Razorbacks.

DA have special Land Speeders and Black Knights. You can even convert Repulsor to Land Raider and it looks very nice with LS Vengeance.

While Ravening Land Speeders and Bikes are better than those of other chapters, I still think they are pretty poor. Just way too fragile for the points you pay. Plasma Inceptors are way better than Black Knights imo, still T5 and 2W, but being able to deep strike that much plasma changes everything!

Vengeance is also pretty underwhelming.

The best Ravenwing vehicles by far are the Dark Shroud and Darktalon.

Huh, I didn't noticed earlier that inceptors have 2d3 shooting attacks, not d3. You are correct, BKs are outclassed. I just don't like looks of primaris models.

That's fair enough! I love them personally, but I get it. Conversely Space Marine bikes in general have never really appealed to me.

 Stux wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Int Chap + Reivers + Eye of the Unseen + Mind Wipe combo cripples characters like no other. Once you manifest, success rates are:

Against Ld 10: 75.00%
Against Ld 9: 83.33%
Against Ld 8: 91.67%
Against Ld 7: 97.22%
Against Ld 6: 100.00%

Best used on +4 BS/WS targets as by turn 2, it'll be hitting on 6+.

While I think mindwipe is a very cool power, the problem is that most often it would be way easier just to kill the model rather than stacking mind wipes.

Mind Wipe vs Baneblades. Thank me later.

 Galas wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Int Chap + Reivers + Eye of the Unseen + Mind Wipe combo cripples characters like no other. Once you manifest, success rates are:

Against Ld 10: 75.00%
Against Ld 9: 83.33%
Against Ld 8: 91.67%
Against Ld 7: 97.22%
Against Ld 6: 100.00%

Best used on +4 BS/WS targets as by turn 2, it'll be hitting on 6+.

While I think mindwipe is a very cool power, the problem is that most often it would be way easier just to kill the model rather than stacking mind wipes.

Mind Wipe vs Baneblades. Thank me later.

Single mind wipe on gunships are pretty fun too with their innate -1 to hit from moving and firing heavy weaps unless they hover... in which case ends up getting shot down as soon as it hovers.