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Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



CT

The bracketing is simply to provide stretch goals to all the players in the event. By breaking the field into 8 man mini events you allow for people from top to bottom to compete for pride and a trophy and some prizes, from the top 2-1 guys all the way down to the guys finishing 0-3 day one. He top two brackets were combined into a top 16 in order to deal with the possibility of more than 8 3-0 players day one without adding a 7th game to the schedule.

After day one there were only 9 undefeated players, and one had to drop out. So by end of event there was only one undefeated player left. Now you could argue that Justin cook and his tau which ended up 17th at 5-1 could have risen up to third if given the opportunity but by the same token he may have lost those games if playing against other guys as well. And at what point do you cut off while maintaining the system that builds community competition from spots 1-75. And to be clear those 2-1 players were out of contention for 1st and were behind in points to the other 2-1 players who did make top 16.

The organizers are looking at the event and feedback for next year and may adjust this system again. This year they broke open the top two brackets into one which worked out very well. They’ll review and work on next years event.

But don’t get hung up on the brackets. They largely have no impact. If you’re trying to mine the event for results and army data be more complex about the research. The top 16 and their results day two are good data. And then look at the few other guys who won out in brackets 2-3 to finish with 1 loss. Those type of lists can help give you a judge of what is good in the meta.

I don’t care at all if people want to say my list is trash. I largely play with things I want to play with. And if things are too generally perceived as good I’ll avoid them. The more people say my list is bad the louder they are shouting how good I am at playing the game, so by all means rip it apart.

But do not disparage the event results or construction or the hard work of the organizers or the effort of the other players. By all metrics the event was run smooth and on time. Players were provided a great competitive experience on beautiful tables. Many of the top players in the country were in attendance playing their very best. Saying the results should be ignored is simply a lazy ignorant response.

Also wyches are amazing. That’s a fact jack.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




OrdoSean wrote:
The bracketing is simply to provide stretch goals to all the players in the event. By breaking the field into 8 man mini events you allow for people from top to bottom to compete for pride and a trophy and some prizes, from the top 2-1 guys all the way down to the guys finishing 0-3 day one. He top two brackets were combined into a top 16 in order to deal with the possibility of more than 8 3-0 players day one without adding a 7th game to the schedule.

After day one there were only 9 undefeated players, and one had to drop out. So by end of event there was only one undefeated player left. Now you could argue that Justin cook and his tau which ended up 17th at 5-1 could have risen up to third if given the opportunity but by the same token he may have lost those games if playing against other guys as well. And at what point do you cut off while maintaining the system that builds community competition from spots 1-75. And to be clear those 2-1 players were out of contention for 1st and were behind in points to the other 2-1 players who did make top 16.

The organizers are looking at the event and feedback for next year and may adjust this system again. This year they broke open the top two brackets into one which worked out very well. They’ll review and work on next years event.

But don’t get hung up on the brackets. They largely have no impact. If you’re trying to mine the event for results and army data be more complex about the research. The top 16 and their results day two are good data. And then look at the few other guys who won out in brackets 2-3 to finish with 1 loss. Those type of lists can help give you a judge of what is good in the meta.

I don’t care at all if people want to say my list is trash. I largely play with things I want to play with. And if things are too generally perceived as good I’ll avoid them. The more people say my list is bad the louder they are shouting how good I am at playing the game, so by all means rip it apart.

But do not disparage the event results or construction or the hard work of the organizers or the effort of the other players. By all metrics the event was run smooth and on time. Players were provided a great competitive experience on beautiful tables. Many of the top players in the country were in attendance playing their very best. Saying the results should be ignored is simply a lazy ignorant response.

Also wyches are amazing. That’s a fact jack.


Oh I fully understand that the bracket system allows that additional sense of competition, especially for those that were in 1-2 or 0-3 after day 1, and I agree that choosing the “correct” cut off point is incredibly difficult, but, like you said, any one of the people outside the top 16 on a 2-1 record after day 1, could have finished easily in the top 10 by going 3-0 day 2. It also has an impact on who plays who and their overall ITC score.
From a personal point of view, if I went 2-1 or 1-2 day 1 and then 3-0 day 2 and still could only top my 8-man bracket I’d probably have mixed feelings about it. It’ll all depend on who and what I played against day 2, but a mistake day 1 could simply lead to lists being mis-matched later on with no ability to re-right the balance day 2. This could have potential impacts on certain brackets and the event experience on the less competitively minded people at the event.

I accept that those outside of the top 16 are out of contention for 1st place, but top 10, top 6 etc sounds, and feels, so much better than “top 20 and best of 17th-25th”.
I’d argue that they do have an impact on the lists seen in the top 16 at the end of the event though. In the top 16, either 1 person goes 0-3 day 2 or 2 people go 1-2. These lists potentially wouldn’t even appear in the top 30 if they had similar results in a non-bracket system. Likewise, lots of lists further down the order would be a lot higher. After game 4, half the lists in the top 16 likely get switched for 8 lists that were in 17th-32nd. After game 5, more top lists drop down, and more bottom lists rise up. I guess you could look at the day 2 results for those lists that went 3-0 outside of the top 16, but would they have gone 3-0 normally, or were there other factors involved? The game is already a fair bit matchup dependant. Restricting the potential matchups just increases the chances of 1 or 2 lists dominating each bracket as they’ll never match up against the other similar lists day 2.

In Justin’s case with his T’au, I don’t know what was in it, or what his skill level is, but, in your opinion would he have beaten (due to matchup) any of the lists placed 6th-16th? If yes to any of the potential 3 matchups, then, we can already see the brackets having an impact on the final standings.
I’m happy to accept the top 4-8 lists data wise, as, with winners playing winners you’d end up with (potentially) 4 undefeated players after round 5, with movement then taking place between the top 8 due to the potential of the 2 winners from 5-8 overtaking the 2 losers from 1-4. Beyond that though, you have to consider lists from 9th right through to something like 32nd due to potential matchups and rank movements.

In terms of your list, I am curious about it. From an outside perspective I do have a bit of a hard time reconciling how it did so well in some of the matchups. How did you find people generally approached trying to deal with your list? Was it things like pre-conceived and incorrect target prioritisation or simply that they didn’t have the tools to deal with 40 fearless Guardians and 28 Wytches? I learnt a long time ago that my approach to games and list building is pretty different to the vast majority of people on dakka, so I can’t help but wonder if my ideas on how to battle you with my standard lists would work or if I’d just get rolled over.

I’m with you on respecting and offering support to those running big events like this. I know I certainly couldn’t do it anytime soon, and their hard work and dedication should be praised! My point isn’t about “ignoring” these results, it is more about questioning what some people are proclaiming them to be/heralding, especially as, in my view/experience, it is a pretty different style of event. Repeatability of result is just as, if not more, important than the initial win itself.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






"I don’t care at all if people want to say my list is trash. I largely play with things I want to play with. And if things are too generally perceived as good I’ll avoid them. The more people say my list is bad the louder they are shouting how good I am at playing the game, so by all means rip it apart."

That is fine - that is mostly how I play too. It is more enjoyable. You are more or less proving my point though. You deliberately take weaker lists to a tournament. This is not some sort of meta change. It is more or less a fluke.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/11 14:08:20


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





"However - not nearly as garbage as an avatar. It's not even worth arguing with anyone who thinks an avatar belongs anywhere in a competitive list.

You'd struggle to find a worse unit in the codex."

In a codex with the Wraithknight and Storm Guardians, that's a silly thing to say. I've always considered it not impressive, but it's not nearly as terrible as some very well known options.

"Don't even need to go into detail about witches...8 point units with a 6+ save and t3 or 4. Garbage and unplayable."
But are fast, and get stuck/keep things stuck in CC amazingly. I imagine this list would be a lot less scary if "fall back and shoot them" was an option.

"Autarchs are also superior to Ra. A laser lance is a great weapon with flat 2 damage."
Great, so at range you get 5 shots for a potential 7 damage if you roll well. So much more amazing than, just how many shots does Ra have these days?
As for melee, the Autarch is s3 after the first round of combat - and this list is built for staying stuck in combat.

"Plus autarchs ignore overwatch (basically one of the best abilities in the entire game)"
A great ability he could really use. Especially if he's running a bunch of elite units instead of morale-immune Guardians/Wyches...

" and have something called an invun save which I've heard from some people is kind of good to have."
Which is great for when your character is soloing his way into squads with good AP. But a 2+ armor makes it much less important. This isn't 7th anymore - invulns are more impactful on bad-armor units. A 2+/- will typically outperform a 3+/4++.

" Not to mention the reroll 1's bubble they provide which is basically essentially in every eldar army I have played AND have ever seen played."
Which is great, if it affected his entire army. Would not affect his Bikes. Would not affect his Wyches. Still, a useful ability Ra doesn't have.
"Nor to mention the the roughly tripple mobility."
Agreed that that's a big one.

So the Autarch has a better aura to affect a third of his list, and more mobility. But doesn't have the killyness of Ra. In a list with this much chaff, perhaps killyness was more needed?

"It is clear to anyone with common sense this tournament did not have a high bar for entry into top ranks."
I'm not sure it's that apparent. The usual suspects are mostly present in this tournament - by both player and list standards. It's suggestive that it wasn't that high a bar based on the variation of the top 3 lists from what we expected. But it's equally or more suggestive that what we expected might be wrong.

"I'd love to see the bottom half. Probably littered with fluff armies and greyknights and other trash space marine armies."
Enough of the usual top lists are present in the lists shared above to prove that there wasn't an absence of the 'usual lists'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/11 15:11:32


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Ra is 8 shots str 6 ap-1 and 6's are ap -3. That is pretty decent.

The autarch is actaully better in CC than Ra is though - with just a laser lance.

same number of attacks but autarch is rerolling 1's.
Same str but autarch is ap -4 where ra is ap -2.
Flat 2 damage vs d3 - tomatoes tomatoes.
Same T but autarch has an invo (ra doesn't)
Ra has +1 W. However Autarch is likely going to be warlord (cause CP regen) and will have +1W and 6+++ warlord trait.

Drawn out combats without invo saves don't happen - you just die if you don't have an invo save t4 6W 2+ save can not be expect to survive any kind of CC threat. First round of CC is all that maters most the time anyways. Autarch has fly keyword anyways and will do more damage just falling back and shooting.

The guy said it himself - he avoids units considered good. kind of like me any my mates do when we want to have a casual game and not steam roll people with OP units.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Do you think t4 5W 3+/4++ is going to survive much longer than t4 6W 2+? It's only AP-3 and worse where the first does better, otherwise the second is better - much better vs anything Ap-1 or less.

(Side note - the Autarch would get a 6+++ for Uthwe - which Ra can't get. But it doesn't tip the scales.)

It's only the same str on the first round of combat. After that, the Autarch is hitting on S3. Which might not be as big a deal in lists that don't have a ton of Wyches to keep things in CC or fearless Guardians to eat attacks.

The Autarch can fall back and shoot, but Ra can stay in and chop. And Ra will do more damage staying in and chopping than the Autarch will in either case.

Ra's got better shooting, CC, and survivability. Autarch has more mobility and utility. It's a tradeoff.

I would be curious who he chose for his warlord.
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Maugan Ra in that list has a variety of uses. He can pick up Culexus Assassins, hitting them on 2+, ensuring the psychic-dependent Eldar army keep rolling and/or ensuring they don't speed-bump the Avatar. He can also throw some wounds on Flyers or pick up small units camping objectives.

Avatar also gives re-roll to charges and buffs the Biel Tan stratagem. Locking Guardian Blobs in close combat with the Wyches, even after Deep Strike, is a key to keeping them alive against shooty armies. With a re-rollable 6" charge on the guardian blobs after coming on the board, hugging something in CC that doesn't get away due to either Wyches or wrapping, those nasty Intercessors aren't shooting anything. Kill the unit off with the Wyches in the opponents turn, free the guardians to shoot. Rinse-and-repeat.

Bigger things trying to fall back out of combat (assuming they can) against Sean's list also have to worry about that Troupe Master pulling Cegorach's Jest and An Example Made for several Fusion Pistol hits as they do so.

That list basically just hugs you in combat and has nearly every trick outside Skarbrand to make sure it stays in CC, denying you to shoot the units, while you cannot shoot the characters either.


Is it a meta-changing list? I don't think so. Few people will try to copy it. But it's certainly a good list, and Sean Nayden played Harlequin Bikes and Wyches back at the ETC too (though without Craftworlds, due to the team format).


I also don't think Sean was interested in CP regen. He had a Harlequins Warlord, with access to Player of the Twilight, which is post-FAQ among the best CP regens out there, given it has an exception from 1 CP per battle round. Instead he took the extra movement, again making it easier to get into the thick quickly and/or charge easier after deep strike.






Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bharring wrote:


I would be curious who he chose for his warlord.


Troupe Master with 'One Foot in the Future'

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2018/10/11 16:32:45


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Bharring wrote:
Do you think t4 5W 3+/4++ is going to survive much longer than t4 6W 2+? It's only AP-3 and worse where the first does better, otherwise the second is better - much better vs anything Ap-1 or less.

(Side note - the Autarch would get a 6+++ for Uthwe - which Ra can't get. But it doesn't tip the scales.)

It's only the same str on the first round of combat. After that, the Autarch is hitting on S3. Which might not be as big a deal in lists that don't have a ton of Wyches to keep things in CC or fearless Guardians to eat attacks.

The Autarch can fall back and shoot, but Ra can stay in and chop. And Ra will do more damage staying in and chopping than the Autarch will in either case.

Ra's got better shooting, CC, and survivability. Autarch has more mobility and utility. It's a tradeoff.

I would be curious who he chose for his warlord.

Ra literally has worse shooting - CC - and survival. It's not a tarde off - the autarch is better at everything and costs less.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



CT

I never said the units I chose were bad. I said they were off the main stream.

The avatar is not a trash unit. He has great rules and abilities. A good stat line. He is however maybe 65-75 points too expensive. But eldar are largely so efficient you can often stomach that swell.

Wyches are amazing. They often could probably cost a little less points. But when they make the charge that is often forgotten as they will wreck people. But their stats and rules are great.

Guardians are a tier 1 unit and have been since the codex came out.

Maugen ra is a tool box unit that can not be duplicated by anything else. As mentioned he kills culuxes and stragglers from units. And is just a consistent platform.

And as always the units in the army compliment each other in ways that make the sum greater than the total of the parts. Balance and board control are the two keys to 8th edition and offense usually beats defense.

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




OrdoSean wrote:
I never said the units I chose were bad. I said they were off the main stream.

The avatar is not a trash unit. He has great rules and abilities. A good stat line. He is however maybe 65-75 points too expensive. But eldar are largely so efficient you can often stomach that swell.

Wyches are amazing. They often could probably cost a little less points. But when they make the charge that is often forgotten as they will wreck people. But their stats and rules are great.

Guardians are a tier 1 unit and have been since the codex came out.

Maugen ra is a tool box unit that can not be duplicated by anything else. As mentioned he kills culuxes and stragglers from units. And is just a consistent platform.

And as always the units in the army compliment each other in ways that make the sum greater than the total of the parts. Balance and board control are the two keys to 8th edition and offense usually beats defense.


Thanks for the reply Sean! It makes it much easier to see your thought process rather than having to make a bunch of assumptions. I guess my only question is why you used rangers? Was it just to drop them on random objective later in the game? Curious because I remember you calling them bad on a recent podcast.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Ordo/Sunny,
Thank you for your insights.

Ordo,
Congrats on the win! Great list.
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




I can see how all three of these lists are effective in their own ways. Even the #1 list. Wyches are cheap. Cheap is good in 8th ed. I don't necessarily need more analysis than that to see their value.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




To be clear I don’t think Sean’s list is in any way meta defining. It doesn’t max efficiency and seems very difficult to play. But there’s a large gap in-between “top tier meta defining” literal trash, like xeno implied.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/11 22:01:23


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran






 Xenomancers wrote:
okay pretty clear that this GT should just be ignored. Avatars, guardian spam, and ultra marines showing up in top 10. Obviously some insane kind of scenario like (opponent has 0 ability to shoot at you)


Lol yea.... your clueless.

Congrats Sean
And thanks for veryone who came. You guys made 4 months of hard work and prep worth it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Salt donkey wrote:
To be clear I don’t think Sean’s list is in any way meta defining. It doesn’t max efficiency and seems very difficult to play. But there’s a large gap in-between “top tier meta defining” literal trash, like xeno implied.


And if you knew Sean you would know that he does that a lot... it’s what makes him such a great player and fun to p,ay against. He never chases the meta and is always making use out of units most don’t .

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




ignore

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/13 02:13:55


 
   
 
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