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Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch



Gotham

Not a Battle Report, but some of you may find it interesting...

Final standings and top lists at the link below.

https://www.battle-report.com/2018/10/08/2018-battle-for-salvation-grand-tournament/

Cheers,

Thoth

Ever changing ~ pts
 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

Thanks for sharing! Might have been best in the tournament discussions forum tho

Nurgle/CSM aficionado - Check out my P&M Blog! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/745328.page
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Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch



Gotham

 Zid wrote:
Thanks for sharing! Might have been best in the tournament discussions forum tho


Apologies.

Cheers,

Thoth

Ever changing ~ pts
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Westchester, NY

@Thoth

were you there to play

that's my club

Regards, RB

Word Bearers--5000 W1 L1 D0
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Thousand Sons---W5 L2 D0
AoS
Beast of chaos--W2 L1 D0
Dark Elves---W1 L1 D0



"We own the Night" 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch



Gotham

RB wrote:
@Thoth

were you there to play

that's my club

Regards, RB


Nah, just stalking people with the camera

Cheers,

Thoth

Ever changing ~ pts
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Kinda strange...top list has a squad of 20 witches and an avatar - both of which are garbage level choices. The rest of the choices are good though - I expect he didn't run into a bad matchup.

The other 2 that are posted are decent looking lists. 5 wave serpant eldar is something I expect to start seeing a lot more of. I play against serpent spam eldar and it is very hard to beat - serpants tie up your best units and use mobility to destroy you with their mortal wounds and they are pretty much indestructible before that.

Number 2 list does exactly what I would expect - sub BA for 3xDEJB. Still an unbeatable list.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Witches aren't really that garbage. With so many other threats on the board they get up the board, stop you from falling back and wreck horde infantry.

The stopping engaged enemy units from falling back is probably their strongest mechanic and I don't know of any other units that have that rule (you know, eldar being eldar...). I'm guessing you can use that plus clever charge/consolidate to really mess up peoples day.

I think the avatar is an attempt at a distraction? Pretty important to kill it before it gets into your lines and he makes those guardian squads fearless right?

I don't know. The list looks pretty good to me and doesn't have many in-meta counters.

Anyone know what the rest of the top bracket was?
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Witches ability doesn't work on fly keyword or vehicals- so it's useless against most everything you want to tie up that isn't going to have a screen anyways. I guess he expected to see a lot of dark reapers.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





*And* A Phoenix Lord. Impressive.

Maugen-Ra being the only long-range unit in the list, and the rest being short-range or CC? That's quite a change.

And the other top-3 list that was Eldar was *Biel-Tan*, and not just for the relic. An actual Shuriken spam list without Alaitoc!

Strange times, indeed.

That said, the Imperium list is exactly as expected. Swapped BAs back out for what they had replaced, otherwise mostly the same.

Would be nice to have top 10 lists.

Edit: Oh, Maugen-Ra and 1 unit of Rangers - they're technically a long ranged shooting unit. Technically.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 19:52:08


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Maugen-Ra - inferior to an autarch with a reaper launcher and laser lance in every way!

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch



Gotham

bananathug wrote:

Anyone know what the rest of the top bracket was?


If/when additional lists surface, we'll be updating the post on the website to include them.

Cheers,

Thoth


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated:

4. Nick Nanavati
11. Luke McCarthy

More to come... Stay tuned

Cheers,

Thoth

Ever changing ~ pts
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






okay pretty clear that this GT should just be ignored. Avatars, guardian spam, and ultra marines showing up in top 10. Obviously some insane kind of scenario like (opponent has 0 ability to shoot at you)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/08 22:17:18


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




There has to be a page of nicks list missing right? Gulliman and some other things? I'm only getting 1316 points...

Sniper scouts are really good and dev squads throwing mortal wounds down range are good as well with scout bikers provide some mean mobile dakka.

It just sucks that the list is 80% not space marines but we've already seen this trick done by Reece so it's not a fluke, it's just really good against the current meta.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






bananathug wrote:
There has to be a page of nicks list missing right? Gulliman and some other things? I'm only getting 1316 points...

Sniper scouts are really good and dev squads throwing mortal wounds down range are good as well with scout bikers provide some mean mobile dakka.

It just sucks that the list is 80% not space marines but we've already seen this trick done by Reece so it's not a fluke, it's just really good against the current meta.

pfff mono guard beats that list easily. Much less castellan guard with skycaptains.

These tournaments are a joke. I'd beat most these lists with intercessor spam.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Thrall Wizard of Tzeentch



Gotham

bananathug wrote:
There has to be a page of nicks list missing right? Gulliman and some other things? I'm only getting 1316 points...

Sniper scouts are really good and dev squads throwing mortal wounds down range are good as well with scout bikers provide some mean mobile dakka.

It just sucks that the list is 80% not space marines but we've already seen this trick done by Reece so it's not a fluke, it's just really good against the current meta.


Updated and posted everything we could get our hands on today.

As you've noticed some lists may be incomplete. We'll try and correct as soon as possible.

Cheers,

Thoth

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 00:08:37


Ever changing ~ pts
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Xenomancers wrote:
okay pretty clear that this GT should just be ignored. Avatars, guardian spam, and ultra marines showing up in top 10. Obviously some insane kind of scenario like (opponent has 0 ability to shoot at you)


I think the format is what is to blame for the seemingly random/astonishing placings of some lists and armies.

As for the wining list, I think it can do more work than you’re giving it credit for, however, I think it should be a very first turn dependant list, as without first turn I’d expect a good chunk of the Wytches and Bikes to be killed. So, something happened somewhere to allow it to get 3 strong wins day 1 and then to win out the bracket day 2. Maybe it was just very heavy terrain setups or something?
   
Made in us
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Kdash wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
okay pretty clear that this GT should just be ignored. Avatars, guardian spam, and ultra marines showing up in top 10. Obviously some insane kind of scenario like (opponent has 0 ability to shoot at you)


I think the format is what is to blame for the seemingly random/astonishing placings of some lists and armies.

As for the wining list, I think it can do more work than you’re giving it credit for, however, I think it should be a very first turn dependant list, as without first turn I’d expect a good chunk of the Wytches and Bikes to be killed. So, something happened somewhere to allow it to get 3 strong wins day 1 and then to win out the bracket day 2. Maybe it was just very heavy terrain setups or something?

Harli bikes are not the problem - they are actually top tier units.

He probably DS the witches. Took them simply as a backfield counter. Scourges do that A LOT better though. Heck even Khabs in DS raiders/venoms do that better. I think it's pretty clear LOS blocking terrain was in excess at this tournament.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





There's a lot that Wyches can do that Scourges can't. Typically, I'd expect more out of Scourges. But the list would fall apart if he just swapped them out (even assuming no change to CP).
   
Made in us
Daring Dark Eldar Raider Rider



CT

The top list beat the second list. Beat The 8 serpent lists. Beat vault necrons. 90 plague bearers and 4 demon princes with Ahriman. 150 cultists, 30 pinks 30 bloodletters abandon Ahriman 3 sorcerers. And triple riptide tau.

 
   
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yeah in a list thats including mugan ra without reapers and an avatar...I think we could find room to improve this list all around.

Starting with replacing MR with a Biker autarch with Lance and Reaper launcher...literally...not even a question which is better. The Autarch is even 10 points cheaper. HE ALSO REGENS COMMAND POINTS.

Then we remove the Avatar and the whole which cult detachment. That gives us 594 points to make a sick DE batallion.

for 34 points less than that worthless pile of garbage you get for 594 points.
You can have 4 venoms 3 with shredder khabs and 1 with 2 archons with husk blades and blasters.

You can go flayed skull for reroll 1's or Black heart for AOV and 6+++ on the venoms. That is preference. You can take all blasters with the alotted points too.


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Reapers would be bad in that list. Which is hard to say, because it's hard for Reapers to be bad right now.

You might want to see if there's a recording of how it plays online. I have some theories about how it's games unfold, and I'm betting Kabs/Reapers/etc would not do well to replace things he has, without completely rewriting the list.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




OrdoSean wrote:
The top list beat the second list. Beat The 8 serpent lists. Beat vault necrons. 90 plague bearers and 4 demon princes with Ahriman. 150 cultists, 30 pinks 30 bloodletters abandon Ahriman 3 sorcerers. And triple riptide tau.


I'd 100% expect this list to melt the Necron list and 3 Riptides can only do so much when hitting on 5's and 6's on the bikes.

Apparently the game was pretty close vs the 6 Wave Serpent spam list, with the bikes only managing to kill 2 Serpents, and i believe someone said somewhere that the Chaos player "Misplayed" in a big way, though i can't find the comment now and i don't remember what happened. Plague Bearer lists can be tough, but the winning list has a LOT of str 4 shots in it that are very accurate, and as soon as the wytch units and characters get into combat more plague bearers are going to die quickly.

The fact that he beat the guy that came 2nd, is a testament to the guys ability and skill, but i'm not convinced this list has the ability to repeat this performance in a standard itc event.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
bananathug wrote:
There has to be a page of nicks list missing right? Gulliman and some other things? I'm only getting 1316 points...

Sniper scouts are really good and dev squads throwing mortal wounds down range are good as well with scout bikers provide some mean mobile dakka.

It just sucks that the list is 80% not space marines but we've already seen this trick done by Reece so it's not a fluke, it's just really good against the current meta.


Apparently the missing points from Nick's list were BobbyG, Emperors Champion, SW Primaris Runepriest and DA Primaris Libby.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 18:38:54


 
   
Made in us
Confessor Of Sins






Scranton

 Xenomancers wrote:
okay pretty clear that this GT should just be ignored. Avatars, guardian spam, and ultra marines showing up in top 10. Obviously some insane kind of scenario like (opponent has 0 ability to shoot at you)


yea... ignore the GT that had half of team america in it (they won this year at ETC...)... as well as many of the most competitive player on the East Coast. This is one of the most competitive events out there...

I'm pretty sure you have to acknowledge the talent that showed up as some of the best in the US east... and several of the players Fennel, Nick N, Brad Nichols, Sean (overall winner)... are usually top players in LVO and other events they attend... every time.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
OrdoSean wrote:
The top list beat the second list. Beat The 8 serpent lists. Beat vault necrons. 90 plague bearers and 4 demon princes with Ahriman. 150 cultists, 30 pinks 30 bloodletters abandon Ahriman 3 sorcerers. And triple riptide tau.


The general beat those lists man. well done Sean

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 22:20:18


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





VA

 Xenomancers wrote:

These tournaments are a joke. I'd beat most these lists with intercessor spam.


Sure thing buddy

   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Xenomancers wrote:
yeah in a list thats including mugan ra without reapers and an avatar...I think we could find room to improve this list all around.

Starting with replacing MR with a Biker autarch with Lance and Reaper launcher...literally...not even a question which is better. The Autarch is even 10 points cheaper. HE ALSO REGENS COMMAND POINTS.

Then we remove the Avatar and the whole which cult detachment. That gives us 594 points to make a sick DE batallion.

for 34 points less than that worthless pile of garbage you get for 594 points.
You can have 4 venoms 3 with shredder khabs and 1 with 2 archons with husk blades and blasters.

You can go flayed skull for reroll 1's or Black heart for AOV and 6+++ on the venoms. That is preference. You can take all blasters with the alotted points too.



I don't want go all in to appeal to authority, but I'm inclined to believe the captain of the ETC winning team and overall top-tier tournament player knows what he's doing. Avatar serves 2 functions in this list.
1) provides a fearless bubble for the guardians.
2) is an excellent counter-assault unit.

Wyches, meanwhile, are dirt cheap troops which can deepstrike, and lock down whatever infantry. they touch. Most good lists contain some sort of infantry, so those wyches will always be useful, especially in the hands of skilled player.

I also think you are underrating Ra here. Your argument completely ignores the fact that Ra is very respectable in close combat, where as the Autarch is not. Its clear Sean cares about protecting his guardians, so that fact probably matters a lot to him.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of the list, which is mainly about board control. The guardians are the key here, so Sean is doing whatever he can to get max use out of them.Your changes probably will make the list more killy, but leaves the guardians vulnerable. Top tier players will take advantage of this, and will likely take your backfield from you using deep-strike units.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/10 22:51:36


 
   
Made in it
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin





Salt donkey wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yeah in a list thats including mugan ra without reapers and an avatar...I think we could find room to improve this list all around.

Starting with replacing MR with a Biker autarch with Lance and Reaper launcher...literally...not even a question which is better. The Autarch is even 10 points cheaper. HE ALSO REGENS COMMAND POINTS.

Then we remove the Avatar and the whole which cult detachment. That gives us 594 points to make a sick DE batallion.

for 34 points less than that worthless pile of garbage you get for 594 points.
You can have 4 venoms 3 with shredder khabs and 1 with 2 archons with husk blades and blasters.

You can go flayed skull for reroll 1's or Black heart for AOV and 6+++ on the venoms. That is preference. You can take all blasters with the alotted points too.





I don't want go all in to appeal to authority, but I'm inclined to believe the captain of the ETC winning team and overall top-tier tournament player knows what he's doing. Avatar serves 2 functions in this list.
1) provides a fearless bubble for the guardians.
2) is an excellent counter-assault unit.

Wyches, meanwhile, are dirt cheap troops which can deepstrike, and lock down whatever infantry. they touch. Most good lists contain some sort of infantry, so those wyches will always be useful, especially in the hands of skilled player.

I also think you are underrating Ra here. Your argument completely ignores the fact that Ra is very respectable in close combat, where as the Autarch is not. Its clear Sean cares about protecting his guardians, so that fact probably matters a lot to him.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of the list, which is mainly about board control. The guardians are the key here, so Sean is doing whatever he can to get max use out of them.Your changes probably will make the list more killy, but leaves the guardians vulnerable. Top tier players will take advantage of this, and will likely take your backfield from you using deep-strike units.



Salt you miss a critical point. xenomancer is a garagehammer player so hard he can get hints about a complex list like Sean list, but you know he can defeat every list in that tournament with agressors like he said, i wonder why Sean is top ranked in ITC and he is not sound strange to me

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/10 23:19:39


I shall reap a terrible bounty from the death that I sow in your name, Father Nurgle
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






I said intercessors. LOL. Which I consider to be a pretty bad unit. However - not nearly as garbage as an avatar. It's not even worth arguing with anyone who thinks an avatar belongs anywhere in a competitive list.

You'd struggle to find a worse unit in the codex. As you'd probably struggle to find it more useful than the 30 gardians you could put in it's place. Which also aren't great units ether.

Don't even need to go into detail about witches...8 point units with a 6+ save and t3 or 4. Garbage and unplayable.

Autarchs are also superior to Ra. A laser lance is a great weapon with flat 2 damage. Plus autarchs ignore overwatch (basically one of the best abilities in the entire game) and have something called an invun save which I've heard from some people is kind of good to have. Not to mention the reroll 1's bubble they provide which is basically essentially in every eldar army I have played AND have ever seen played. Nor to mention the the roughly tripple mobility.

It is clear to anyone with common sense this tournament did not have a high bar for entry into top ranks. I'd love to see the bottom half. Probably littered with fluff armies and greyknights and other trash space marine armies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/11 04:30:34


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 blackmage wrote:
Salt donkey wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
yeah in a list thats including mugan ra without reapers and an avatar...I think we could find room to improve this list all around.

Starting with replacing MR with a Biker autarch with Lance and Reaper launcher...literally...not even a question which is better. The Autarch is even 10 points cheaper. HE ALSO REGENS COMMAND POINTS.

Then we remove the Avatar and the whole which cult detachment. That gives us 594 points to make a sick DE batallion.

for 34 points less than that worthless pile of garbage you get for 594 points.
You can have 4 venoms 3 with shredder khabs and 1 with 2 archons with husk blades and blasters.

You can go flayed skull for reroll 1's or Black heart for AOV and 6+++ on the venoms. That is preference. You can take all blasters with the alotted points too.





I don't want go all in to appeal to authority, but I'm inclined to believe the captain of the ETC winning team and overall top-tier tournament player knows what he's doing. Avatar serves 2 functions in this list.
1) provides a fearless bubble for the guardians.
2) is an excellent counter-assault unit.

Wyches, meanwhile, are dirt cheap troops which can deepstrike, and lock down whatever infantry. they touch. Most good lists contain some sort of infantry, so those wyches will always be useful, especially in the hands of skilled player.

I also think you are underrating Ra here. Your argument completely ignores the fact that Ra is very respectable in close combat, where as the Autarch is not. Its clear Sean cares about protecting his guardians, so that fact probably matters a lot to him.

I think you are fundamentally missing the point of the list, which is mainly about board control. The guardians are the key here, so Sean is doing whatever he can to get max use out of them.Your changes probably will make the list more killy, but leaves the guardians vulnerable. Top tier players will take advantage of this, and will likely take your backfield from you using deep-strike units.



Salt you miss a critical point. xenomancer is a garagehammer player so hard he can get hints about a complex list like Sean list, but you know he can defeat every list in that tournament with agressors like he said, i wonder why Sean is top ranked in ITC and he is not sound strange to me


Exactly its clear Xenomancer has just reached an enlighten peak that us mere more mortals can never ascend to. With such strong arguments like "this unit sucks because it has weaknesses!' and "this unit sucks because I said so and you're idiot to think otherwise!" how can I even compete? I'm sure Sean just got lucky when he defeated all those top tier lists despite having 600ish points of pure trash. Who needs synergy or unit role variety when you can just spam what's good?

On a non-sarcastic side note I fell for this bait because xeno is showing an opinion that is far too common on Dakka; that top players win only because they spam what's best without any other considerations. They have this view because it provides them an easy excuse. for why they don't win. "Well I could be just as good as any pro if I spent money on what's best like they do." So when Sean Nayden wins a GT with "bad" units, it couldn't be because Sean is a great player who makes and plays list that maximize a unit's potential. No, he must have just gotten lucky or played a bunch of scrubs (despite all the evidence to the contrary). That way these forum pros don't have to admit that 40k require skill outside of just spamming what's OP, and that they to can be as good (or better) as the pros if they wanted to. I am giving this rant because guys like Sean spend a lot of time and effort to be as good as they are. Therefore I get annoyed when people like xeno feel the need to criticize/ minimize Sean's achievement in order to feel better about themselves.

(P.S. not trying to insinuate that you're a bad person xeno, I just think you're trying to protect yourself from a somewhat harsh truth, a very common trait among people)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/11 07:22:34


 
   
Made in us
Brainy Zoanthrope





VA

Salt donkey wrote:

On a non-sarcastic side note I fell for this bait because xeno is showing an opinion that is far too common on Dakka; that top players win only because they spam what's best without any other considerations. They have this view because it provides them an easy excuse. for why they don't win. "Well I could be just as good as any pro if I spent money on what's best like they do." So when Sean Nayden wins a GT with "bad" units, it couldn't be because Sean is a great player who makes and plays list that maximize a unit's potential. No, he must have just gotten lucky or played a bunch of scrubs (despite all the evidence to the contrary). That way these forum pros don't have to admit that 40k require skill outside of just spamming what's OP, and that they to can be as good (or better) as the pros if they wanted to. I am giving this rant because guys like Sean spend a lot of time and effort to be as good as they are. Therefore I get annoyed when people like xeno feel the need to criticize/ minimize Sean's achievement in order to feel better about themselves.


Preach!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/11 09:44:15


   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Not sure if I’ve been added into that group comment, but, if I have then I apologise and stick with my comment of
The fact that he beat the guy that came 2nd, is a testament to the guys ability and skill, but i'm not convinced this list has the ability to repeat this performance in a standard itc event.


The main issue I have with this event is the whole bracketing day 2 thing (which apparently is common in the US, but I’ve never seen done here in the UK (just seems super restrictive to me as positions 6-16 can all be contested by players outside of the initial top 16) along with the supposed implications people are trying to take away from this event.

If a similar list goes out and wins the next big event, then, yes, we might be onto something, but, until that happens I do not think that this list has the repeatability to go on and win more events. Sean might be able to pull it off due to his experience with it, but it’s not going to be the next Guard/BA/Castellan list, or anywhere close to it imo.

I agree that Sean’s list revolves around table control, but I’m also genuinely surprised that the big squad of Wytches and the 2 Guardian squads weren’t just shot off the table. Sure, if you’re running Knights you need to deal with the haywire pretty quickly, but, if you’re not, or have counters to doom, then they don’t really have that much to offer. In ITC missions you need to contest objectives and kill things, with the secondaries supporting that. His list is basically offering you up 3 big, relatively easy to kill units to earn points off – immune to morale or not.

I’m also interested in how many times he went 2nd in his last 3 games.

Currently the internet seems to be breaking with people running around and proclaiming this is the new “be all and end all” list and all sorts of comments are being made, on dakka, reddit competitive and elsewhere, with pretty much all (but not all) questioning comments about the list seemingly being taken as an attack on Sean.

The internet is a polarising place with very little discussion or thought. You’re either right, or wrong, unfortunately.
   
 
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