Why does gamesworkshop hate orks so much?

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**lolman1c**

mmzero252 wrote:
They used to be 6 each and 12 for the twin, so it could be worse! Now you just have to deal with the rest of the terrible codex. This codex was my hope for my army to actually get even a little decent, but it looks like it's going to remain on the shelf.

apparently they're actually 5 each... so they lost a whole 1 point! Oh wow! XD

**Amishprn86**

Point costs dont mean much is they are strong enough to justify the cost.

Let someone actually read the codex fully for a few days before reacting shall we?

**Spoletta**

lolman1c wrote:
It's incompetence. A lot of stuff was a great improvement but the codex was written by 1 guy (they even said his name in stream and said he wrote the codex). However, they did listen to us when it came to seff dreads and Morkanaut so here is my suggestions of things that need to still be fixed:

1. Rokkits 12 points on a 5+BS model - 1 shot
2. Kannon is 15 pts on a BS 5+ model - 1 shot or d6 S4 shots.
3. Lootas 17pts on a BS 5+ model - still a heavy weapon
4. Stompa 892 pts with no invuln save - taken out after it couldn't even kill1 knight. The things also can't take Kulture traitz.
5. Flyers need a small price drop.
6. Hq's need a small price drop (big mek in MA is double the points of a Teckmarine even without the kff)
7. Gretchin need the Kultur keyword
8. Big shota is 3 pts but twin big shoota is 10pts. Tripple the cost of a big shoota! Wut?!? It's cheaperto run 3 big shootas now than to run 1 twin big shoota? Erm? Gw? You drunk?
9. Twin rokkits is double the cost of rokkits on a BS 5 model.... hahahahaaaaa wtf gw.

The list goes on... Basically the same mistakes from the index the guy just never bothered to fix.

1) Rokkits at 12 are more than fine. Actually they are the best weapon for the cost in its category. Guards pay 20 points for a missile launcher and have an accuracy of 50%, marines pay 25 at 66%. Orks pay 12 and have an accuracy of 38,8%. One is heavy 48, the other one is assault 24", which are about equivalent. One is damage D6 the other one is 3, again about equal, one is slightly better on high wound targets, the other one is a good counter to 3W models and has a more predictable output.

2) Same considerations as above, in this case the cannon compares not so well to a missile launcher, due to 12" less range while keeping about the same rate of hits/point. A bit worse than what guards offer, but not by a big margin.

9) That is normal for 90% of the weapons in the game. Twin weapons almost always cost 2 times as much as the single weapon.

In any case, you will notice with a bit of math that the BS 4,66 of Orks has been taken in consideration for the points costs. No need to act the victim too much.

**A.T.**

Impossible question to answer. They don't hate them.
Judgement reserved on the entirely separate question as to the power level of the new book until people have had a chance to play with it and the new chapter approved rules.

fe40k wrote:
Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.

They weren't half bad at the outset of 5th. Biker lists, kan walls, battlewagon spam among others.

**lolman1c**

A.T. wrote:
Impossible question to answer. They don't hate them.
Judgement reserved on the entirely separate question as to the power level of the new book until people have had a chance to play with it and the new chapter approved rules.

fe40k wrote:
Orks haven't been good since 3rd edition.
They weren't half bad at the outset of 5th. Biker lists, kan walls, battlewagon spam among others.

The thousands they pumped into them them this edition shows they don't hate them. The points cost changes are clearly there to push people towards the new stuff and stuff that you wouldn't normally see (I still hold the judgement if they made them good enough we wouldn't need nerfs to push us towards them), However, I honestly want to focus on what hasn't changed. A few things did need buffs but got no points change in the codex... but as I keep saying. So far things don't look terrible but I still see room for judgement in order to improve the codex more in the future.

**JNAProductions**

lord_blackfang wrote:
GW doesn't hate Orks, GW is just outrageously incompetent at game design.

Seconding this.

**ClockworkZion**

Overread wrote:
Orks are loved - they got their own minigame complete with new sculpts and what 5 or more new vehicle releases. That's pretty huge in this current wave of codex releases where many faction got one model or even no new models with their respective codex. Remembering that this current wave of codex releases has been superfast - we've had under 2 years and there are only 2 factions without a codex (Sisters and Genstealers) whilst GW has introduced several new codex and armies over that time and given a codex to every other. In the old days we might have had 4 codex over that same time period and some armies wouldn't even see a codex before the next edition of the game.

Sisters of Silence and Inquisition are lacking updated rules that pull them out of the Index era and into something playable as well. The Assassins could use a splatbook update as well. But otherwise, basically correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
So to add something a little more topical to this topic, I nicked this quote from B&C:

The tipping point for me actually writing this post was the release on the Community Site about the Deathskulls Kultur which starts as a direct copy of the Salamanders chapter tactic (re-roll one hit/wound each time they fight/shoot) except this get's improved to also being able to re-roll a damage roll. And it doesn't stop there. They then get an army-wide invulnerable save, AND objective priority.

So if I'm to believe the OP, Orks were screwed by GW, despite another poster pointing out that they have abilities that exceed that of Marine chapters (with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic) then the question is, for everyone who isn't as good as the Orks are, what's the point in even trying?

**An Actual Englishman**

Its almost as if rerolling to hit and wound on a model with better stats is worth objectively more than rolling to hit on a model that hits 1/3 of the time with generally weaker weapons.

GW don't hate works, they just don't understand how to balance them effectively. There's no malice here. Just stupidity.

**A.T.**

ClockworkZion wrote:
(with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)

Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.

**Stux**

A.T. wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
(with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.

Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.

One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.

**ClockworkZion**

Stux wrote:
A.T. wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
(with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.

Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.

One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.

Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.

I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.

**meleti**

Codex isn’t even out yet and people think it sucks. This might be a fun thread to revisit in three months.

**ClockworkZion**

meleti wrote:
Codex isn’t even out yet and people think it sucks. This might be a fun thread to revisit in three months.

It's just business as usual on Dakka. It's why I don't come here to understand how good/bad a codex is.

**Stux**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Stux wrote:
A.T. wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
(with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.

Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.

One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.

Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.

I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.

Boys also always miss on 3s and 4s and have a worse armour save.

Likewise, not saying Marines are good. Rather that it's too early to tell how that complete package for Orks stacks up.

**CassianSol**

SHUPPET wrote:
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.

What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?

You could play the game for once maybe?

The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.

**ClockworkZion**

Stux wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Stux wrote:
A.T. wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
(with one being a literal +1 version of an existing chapter tactic)
Though that in-of itself doesn't say anything about balance, if you assume that units have their points padded out in accordance with the power of the final combined statline+faction bonus.

Absolutely agree. You have to look at the whole package. How the units, strats etc available to the armies compare.

One tactic being strictly better than another in a vacuum is basically irrelevant. You have to take into account all of the differences and see how it stacks up in context.

Well.....Ork boys are nearly half the cost of a Tactical Marine, never miss on 6s, have exploding dice when shooting on 6s are better in melee due to having more attacks and can take kulturs that give them an Invul, a FnP or a cover save for free.

I'm not saying Orks are just going to dominate the tournament meta (we'll have to wait and see how points changes in CA shake out first), but they're in a far better place than Marines are at the moment.

Boys also always miss on 3s and 4s and have a worse armour save.

Likewise, not saying Marines are good. Rather that it's too early to tell how that complete package for Orks stacks up.

I'm not saying Orks don't have some downsides (worse BS, worse armour) but considering they have less penalties than they used to (boltguns no longer AP their armour, and they don't have to fight after Marines do in melee) they aren't nearly as weak against Marines in a fight as they used to be. Add in the bonuses from the codex and they should be at least upper middle tier in the hands of a good player.

**ValentineGames**

Good lord. And people moan about my negativity!

**Crimson Devil**

Banville wrote:
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by paranoia.

**Grimtuff**

CassianSol wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.

What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?

You could play the game for once maybe?

The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.

I don't need to eat dog gak to know it's going to taste bad.

**Elbows**

I'm wondering what codex previews people have been watching...outside of the Stompa being too expensive, every single Ork listing I've seen has been pretty damn impressive...very strong Klan traits, obnoxious DDD rule, fantastic stratagems, good warlord traits. What book are people looking at?

**Crimson Devil**

It's just the puppet show that is Dakka. Lots of sound and fury signifying nothing.

**leopard**

Looks to me like you are going to find Orks are "meah" on their own, but good with strategems - while CP last.

in effect the ork player has an incentive, as they used to have with the codex, to "get on with it".

in effect if the Orks can hit hard and fast they will hit harder and faster, if they bounce off they are screwed faster

**SHUPPET**

CassianSol wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
CassianSol wrote:
jesus christ man they JUST had a whole bunch of incredible looking models released. The codex isn't even out. Grow up.

What sort of logic is this? If he knows whats in the codex why does he have to wait for release day to form an opinion?

You could play the game for once maybe?

The problem is many people love to whine pre-release about things but never reflect back on when they are wrong, which is very often. People were deriding the Necron codex for being op in the build up to release. People got many things wrong. It may prove right, but maybe give it a go first before whining again and again.

Fair enough, there's definitely a lot of whining like that

**Andykp**

Books not out and haters already slamming it. You’ve not even played a game with it. I have played ORKS for thirty years and only care about what the models and fluff is like. So glad prime ORKS didn’t appear and the new models are amazing. Play a few games before you starting your tantrums. GW love ORKS. They are a staple in the game. And as for being incompetent, they produce the most popular wargames and are a huge company making money hand over fist. You are all here talking about their product and buying it. So they are doing something right.

People need to get a grip. If the company makes a product you don’t like it isn’t personal. They didn’t do it to you on purpose. Grow up and realise you are talking about a game and a hobby. It’s supposed to be fun. Stop worrying about winning, (no one cares) and enjoy playing the game.

**Gulgog TufToof**

GW does hate orks. All you ork players should rage quit immediately and sell me your armies for pennies on the dollar.

After the Codex is officially released, I’ll happily sell you your stuff back for an entirely modest and reasonable increase.

**Kelligula**

Oh shoot. I thought this would be a good place to meet other people that also despise Orks.

No need to get angry at people for being upset over a codex though. Let dakka be dakka.

**Daedalus81**

Banville wrote:
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

I'll enjoy a romp through this thread when Orks make a top table at LVO.

**McMagnus Mindbullets**

Why so much spite?

The codex isn't even out yet. Who here has played a game with orks yet? Noone. Stop slamming them dex for being rubbish when you don't know how good it really is yet, and more importantly when the new Ork kulturs, stratagems and kombos are looking really darn fun. Oh no! You can't roflstomp a tournament because the codex is bad! What a shame! Have some fun. GW CLEARLY do not hate orks apparent through their gigantic hype train developed this month, a pile of new models (much more than many other factions got) and a really cool narrative setting up future releases tying in with the orks. Please stop complaining

**SHUPPET**

McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:

The codex isn't even out yet. Who here has played a game with orks yet? Noone.

Someone has, and they got tabled turn 3

It probably doesn't reflect much on the overall capability of the dex tho.

While I personally can't judge Orkz at this stage, I think if Tyranids got a bunch of changes, I'd be able to recognise pretty quickly what is bad or good. I have a pretty good track record of calling the best units in the dex on my first read of a codex.

That being said, I don't trust others to do the same. Time and time again has proved people with a VERY low grasp on the game will throw out HARD statements about the dex (even I just say "first glance, may be wrong") that are usually motivated by personal bias more so than any actual knowledge, understanding, mathemathics, or practical thinking.

**Daedalus81**

SHUPPET wrote:

Someone has, and they got tabled turn 3

The more I read this book the more it's apparent that the guy was not familiar with his options and was just blinded by the Stompa.

I don't care about that so much though - it was just a dude having fun playing a game attempting to showcase new stuff.