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 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Your complaints are baffling.

The third sentence in my original post spells out some of the models I have sitting around. That's right after I state the fact I'm thinking about using them for a new army.

You are the one with the complaints, who made a thread to voice them, this is my response to them. Baffling is the right word for it. You specifically said that this thread isn't about you personally it's about people considering starting a Chaos army, but then you list your own personal, completed Black Legion army as reason for why it's a bad time to start the army. Nothing about that makes any sense.

Of course that makes no sense because that's not what I said.

The fact I'm not painting Black Legion models anymore has nothing to do with a desire to paint another army.

 SHUPPET wrote:
And that's just your first point. How are you not grasping how illogical that is? Or how illogical it is to assume that the popularity of an army will dissuade most people from playing Alpha Legion? (hell I feel like that statement is self contradictory of itself). Or how illogical it is to declare that people should somehow feel limited in building their thematic Iron Warriors army and thus shouldn't do it, even though almost everything from their fluff is playable and more? Mutilators are wack but that has never been any different.

You are just making stuff up.

I'm not claiming anyone would share my opinions about other factions, but I am stating my own to illustrate the point that it's complex to start a Chaos army.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
I believe I've been clear that the issue is not with the fact the Legion traits exist but that this is a significant change from previous editions. You can't really tell someone 'play whatever you want' anymore, it takes a fair amount of decision making to decide on a Legion. People still do that in these forums.

The fact that other armies have enjoyed this kind of richness for a while now is irrelevant. I'm talking about differences in a thought process.

Other armies have enjoyed this kind of richness what? Chapter tactics equivalents are a new thing for pretty much every army in the game this edition. 'Bad time to start a Chaos army' makes no sense when the same thing applies to every other race in the game, it's the same story for everyone so it has no impact on whether or not to start a Chaos army or something else.

I'm not talking about every other army in the game, I am talking about Chaos. The fact other armies have a similar mechanic has nothing to do with the situation for Chaos.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of this they have tons of stylistic choices like Obliterators, Warpsmiths, they can finally take Knights, and I'd they DO want Guard tanks, the cost is 25 pt HQ tax for an RnH spearhead, and the tanks are all identical to AM ones minus the Regiment trait, and it's totally viable (similar to GSC). If you want your cultist fodders you obviously buy them from the CSM dex that's the whole strength of the army, nobody does cheap Fearless bodies as good as IW. I don't think its ever been a better time to bebe an Iron Warrior player. I said it before and I'll say it again, first world tabletop problems, this thread is an excellent example that some people will never be happy

That's great you are so satisfied with Iron Warriors and the performance of Renegades and Heretics. Other people have different opinions.

Not sure how you see the fact I wouldn't want to build an Iron Warriors army as a complaint and not a preference.

This thread isn't about what you personally want though is it - it's about your opinion that it's a bad time for others to start an Iron Warrior army, and the reasons you gave them for that are totally illogical. Your response "well I still personally don't want to start an Iron Warriors army and that's my preference" is not a counter to this. That was always your choice. It doesn't make it a bad time to start the army for others. This shouldn't be this difficult.

No, this thread is not about what I personally want.

This thread is about the thought process behind starting a new Chaos army, and how different it is than it was before. The way I introduced this perspective was by sharing my own experience thinking through the process and you seem to have an extremely difficult time with that.

It is a bad time to start a new Chaos army, the situation will be better once we know what's going on with Cult Legions. Until then, the advice I'd give people on the various legions is as such:

- We don't know what's going on with World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Wait six months and come back to it.

- Most CSM tournament lists include Alpha Legion and GW just nerfed one of their main mechanics. Steer clear of them until we know where the meta will settle. I could see them losing their 12 inch cover save or having it only apply first turn.

- Night Lords are okay if you are looking for a melee oriented army, but those morale modifiers mean little against hordes, Knights and armor. Consider them if you are okay with not having an advantage against half the armies out there.

- Word Bearers are Word Bearers. They don't give you a lot to work with.

- Iron Warriors might be okay, but there is a lot of misinformation about them on Dakka. Some strange fellow is going around talking about how great their morale is, how well they pair with Renegades and Heretics, etc. These are awful lies that will leave you very disappointed if you spend time and money on them. Only consider them if you can also use them in 30k, where they are decent.

- Black Legion is great. Just remember to take Abaddon. But consider waiting until the Cult Legions are released.

how well they pair with Renegades and Heretics

Pair well with stealing the Leman Russes and Basilisks from RnH more like. (Which are still worse than the guard variant)

Sir Heckington wrote:

how well they pair with Renegades and Heretics

Pair well with stealing the Leman Russes and Basilisks from RnH more like. (Which are still worse than the guard variant)

The only reason to take them is for the 490 point battalion that gives you the extra command points. And that's only if you feel you need the command points.

Sure, an Earthshaker Battery looks cool, what is it, BS5? You're not hitting much, there are no auras to give you rerolls, and you get nothing from your HQ.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

how well they pair with Renegades and Heretics

Pair well with stealing the Leman Russes and Basilisks from RnH more like. (Which are still worse than the guard variant)

The only reason to take them is for the 490 point battalion that gives you the extra command points. And that's only if you feel you need the command points.

Sure, an Earthshaker Battery looks cool, what is it, BS5? You're not hitting much, there are no auras to give you rerolls, and you get nothing from your HQ.

Never bad to fit a leman russ in your army, sure it's BS4, but I mean, grinding advance. The troops from RnH though you can throw in the nearest garbage can.

I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

Nature's Minister wrote:
I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

I can't even legally use my Iron Warriors army anymore. I have 6 havoc squads in my army, 4 with autocannons, 1 with heavy bolters and 1 with lascannons.

Nature's Minister wrote:
I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

My natural list is a Black Legion Chaos Gunline. 20+ lascannons with rerolls to hit on everything can get you very far in 8th edition. I swap out laspreds with Scorpius' when I feel like punishing someone.

I wanted to avoid the issue of FAQs in this thread, but they've done CSMs no favors.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Great comments.

@Sgt. Cortez - you are totally right, each Legion can be played. Some Legions just have fewer downsides than the others, and then there's Word Bearers...

In all honesty, it feels like DG are doing what IW should do with their PBCs. I don't mean to take away from what we've got with 8th edition, what concerns me is the next release is going to outclass the current one.

Not sure about that. The PBC is just one vehicle, hitting on 4+, 5+ when moved. I'd say Rapiers, Havocs, Oblits all bring more firepower to the table than the PBC. That's in no way to say that the PBC is bad, if you ask me it's about 20-30points too cheap, but I just don't see DG being able to build a gunline because of it. Yes, DG can do it, Plague marines with 3 specials, defiler and all kinds of dreadnoughts, but that's still less than other Chaos Legions can do and with shorter range.

Totally agree with this, PBCs are way more effective used as aggressive plague spewing distraction carnifexes. If I hit anything with the mortar it's a bonus. Pure death guard don't really gun line.

I run a million bloodletters and tzaangors and cultists now. Games that would have been tight or a loss with my iron warriors are now a 2nd or 3rd turn table

It's a bad time to be into any flavor of space marines if you like winning. Personally I am perfectly okay with indulging in our new daemonic buddies.

This is arguably one of the benefits of soup in general. World bearers/emperors children's potentially getting anew codex, meta shifts and such you will have a handful of models that can still be played along with the new worldbearers tzaangors.

World Bearers? Angron will not be amused!

Sir Heckington wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

I can't even legally use my Iron Warriors army anymore. I have 6 havoc squads in my army, 4 with autocannons, 1 with heavy bolters and 1 with lascannons.

You can run a spearhead with a battallion and get a whole bunch of heavy slots.

 chimeara wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

I can't even legally use my Iron Warriors army anymore. I have 6 havoc squads in my army, 4 with autocannons, 1 with heavy bolters and 1 with lascannons.

You can run a spearhead with a battallion and get a whole bunch of heavy slots.

Rule of 3 my dude. I've had to pick up some more MkIII marines just to shove them off to CSM squads.

Sir Heckington wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

Sir Heckington wrote:

Nature's Minister wrote:
I finally dropped the last of my iron warriors from my army. They were great when you could null deploy and drop in 12 obliterators but chaos gunlines are like playing the game on super hard mode

I can't even legally use my Iron Warriors army anymore. I have 6 havoc squads in my army, 4 with autocannons, 1 with heavy bolters and 1 with lascannons.

You can run a spearhead with a battallion and get a whole bunch of heavy slots.

Rule of 3 my dude. I've had to pick up some more MkIII marines just to shove them off to CSM squads.

Or right, totally gapped that...that's embarrassing....