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Chaos Space Marines are in a weird state right now. It might actually be the worst time ever to start a new CSM army.

Here's why I say that. I've been thinking about creating a new CSM army. There's a ton of unpainted CSM stuff sitting in my basement. 80+ CSMs on sprues, Land Raiders, Raptors, Bikes, Obliterators, Havocs, Predators, Fiends, Heldrakes, etc. More than enough models for several armies has been piling up. And I'm not going to paint any more Black Legion, it's 'done' for now.

Of the 8 other Traitor Legions, 2 have their own Codexes (Thousand Sons and Death Guard.) There's rumors 2 other ones might get their own Codex (World Eaters and Emperor's Children.) Assuming TS and DG are a guide to what might be coming, they don't use normal CSMs, they have Cult Troops instead. Also, some other standard CSM units don't have a place in their lists, like Bikes, Raptors or Obliterators.

If I wanted a force that makes use of all the stuff Chaos has to offer, I'm left with the following Legions to work with:

- Alpha Legion appears too often on the tabletop, this takes away the thrill for me. Like many Chaos players, I don't follow the crowd.

- Iron Warriors have never been properly represented and this would keep me from painting a whole army. If I did them it would be a small contingent to accompany a R&H army. And I'd probably use Mk III or IV armor instead of what I already have.

- Night Lords are good and scary, which I like, but their rules are so cc oriented playing them would be dissatisfying. They are the Chaos version of Blood Angels with no Death Company to make them worthwhile.

- The only Legion remaining is Word Bearers. Crap Legion trait, poor Stratagem and all. But fluffy.

After having to think about it, I realized, for the first time in a long time, Legions are no longer carbon-copies but for the paint. There are meaningful decisions to make that impact unit selection, playstyle and success on the tabletop. Any army built with the 'standard' Legions is going to take some playtesting to use properly because it's going to be different from any other Chaos army you take. So you can't just switch playstyles by swapping a couple units, there are real consequences to decisions about the Legion you use.

This is a good and bad thing. The Legion-specific Codexes create an expectation about what's to come. While I would really like to do an Emperor's Children army, it feels like it would be smarter to wait and see what's coming next. Of course, we don't KNOW there's an Emperor's Children Codex coming or when it could be released. All I know is, if I started an army today, there's a chance some models would have no place in it at some point in the near future.

On top of that, the Cult Armies do some incredible things. I watch Thousand Sons armies crank out 30 MW a turn for 3 or 4 turns a game. I watch Death Guard armies shrug off tons of wounds during long marches across the board. The anticipation of a new Cult Codex concerns me from the standpoint of being left out at some point in the future. Let's say I took the safe bet and built a Night Lords army, then the Emperor's Children Codex hit and it has incredible movement and assault rules. I would feel dumb for building a cc oriented Night Lords army that's now outclassed because I was concerned about being able to use some models.

Anyways, wanted to share and get other people's thoughts. This probably won't be a problem in a year, but right now it feels like there's no simple way to choose a Legion. Sure, you could go with a Cult Legion, but that means losing access to some units (and, to be fair, there's a lack of synergy with many standard CSM units in those Codexes.) You could choose a standard Legion, which runs the risk of bad rules / losing out on the possibilities of future Cult Codexes. Or you can wait, and you don't really know when to expect things to resolve.

I've been sad about Iron Warriors since 4th edition, at the height of their powers, the true gunline CSM legion. Sadly those times appear to be gone forever.

We're supposed to embrace the cult legions. Eventually we'll probably get World Eaters and Emperor's Children codices, like most codices, they'll have a few really solid units, a couple new ones with new models and amazing rules to sell them until they get price adjusted and we'll be flavor of the month for a bit.

I've gotten comfortable with abandoning any pretense of fielding a truly competitive army for a number of reasons, some of which simply involve not wanting to move 80+ models every turn. I just field something that I think will have a few moments of glorious carnage and hope for the best on the rest. *shrug*

I think it's a bad time, because I hate the old models and with new ones on the way at some point in the future I just don't feel motivated to crank out anything I currently have.

If you want to punch out games without painting tons of old marines then there is plenty fun to be had experimenting with the legions.

And, if the CA modifies marines traits to be like newer codexes there could even be more windows opening.

Balance in 8th is good enough to be able to play every legion, which is a big step forward, compared to prior editions. You can play a nice Iron Warriors gunline with the help of FW (and even without). Havocs, Obliterators and helbrutes are solid units and with Votlw and sorcerers you can buff them properly.

Night lords suffer a bit from the same problem every 40K edition had - leadership is simply not that important and some armies outright ignore it. But that's only the trait, otherwise they have a good range of units and raptors bring special weapons where you want them.

Great comments.

@TwinPoleTheory - yeah, moving 80+ Cultists a turn isn't very satisfying. IW should just have more tanks than other CSM Legions, while I'm happy picking up FW units it's still not as good as IG can do. So I agree with you, sad.

@Daedalus81 - sounds like we're in the same place. I've done a lot of experimenting with other Legions, only to come back around to Black Legion and the comfort of Abaddon.

As far as older models go - one of my favorite paint schemes for CSM has been the Emperor's Children model that popped up in the 6th edition Codex. If there was an army I would do up with the old models simply because I liked it, it would be EC in that style.

But that doesn't help with the uncertainty.

@Sgt. Cortez - you are totally right, each Legion can be played. Some Legions just have fewer downsides than the others, and then there's Word Bearers...

In all honesty, it feels like DG are doing what IW should do with their PBCs. I don't mean to take away from what we've got with 8th edition, what concerns me is the next release is going to outclass the current one.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Great comments.

@Sgt. Cortez - you are totally right, each Legion can be played. Some Legions just have fewer downsides than the others, and then there's Word Bearers...

In all honesty, it feels like DG are doing what IW should do with their PBCs. I don't mean to take away from what we've got with 8th edition, what concerns me is the next release is going to outclass the current one.

Not sure about that. The PBC is just one vehicle, hitting on 4+, 5+ when moved. I'd say Rapiers, Havocs, Oblits all bring more firepower to the table than the PBC. That's in no way to say that the PBC is bad, if you ask me it's about 20-30points too cheap, but I just don't see DG being able to build a gunline because of it. Yes, DG can do it, Plague marines with 3 specials, defiler and all kinds of dreadnoughts, but that's still less than other Chaos Legions can do and with shorter range.

Let me help you right there with your choice : if you want to play regular chaos marine, or even cult troops, they won't be amazing anyway. So just build what you like the aesthetic of.
Death guard sucks at the moment.
Thousand sons is actually Codex : Magnus + tzangoors. If you play any kind of marine from TS codex your effectively gimping yourself.A
Of all the cult troops, only berserker and grenade launching DG pose a real threat, and they are usually pretty slow.

I don't say all this to bum you out of playing chaos, but just to say that any competitive chaos list is not chaos SPACE MARINE, just chaos in general. If you're going to be using csm, go all in in what please you. Most unit are still okay in what they do and will still be playable.

Right now I'm putting my WE away for a bit to field my IW. FW options I think are the way to go. Hellforged Scorpius, Rapier Artilleries and Decimators are awesome. Even Contemptor Dreadnought or leviathans. All good stuff from my experience.

Plus, their legion trait is awesome, since my meta includes lots of scouts and rangers. Or parking heavy weapons teams in buildings. Or even the new second turn strategem is mostly useless against IW.

Outside of the basic marine stats being non-competitive, I find CSM to be pretty fun to run - at least in local games. I don't think they're tournament-useful at this point, but luckily most people don't play in tournaments.

They're definitely subject to codex creep, and don't have any wiz-bang units. However Forgeworld gives you some great units, and they have a large codex with a ton of options. Renegades is a great Legion tactic which is often overlooked. CSM also have excellent psychic powers (arguably the best set of six I've seen). There's nothing stopping you from taking cult units as well, so adding a flavour without running a cult book.

They have decent stratagems, though few that are grand (outside of some very strong Legion specific ones). There's nowt stopping you from allying in a daemon detachment for some heinous options there as well. They have crap for relics if you're not playing a specific Legion unfortunately.

I'd say you can absolutely play them and have fun, but you're unlikely to beat face on someone - and you'll get wiped by a proper tournament army.

I think you should go to your pile-o-chaos, pick about 3-4 kits that you enjoy building/painting, and form the best list you can around them. Paint them up in some non-legion specific scheme & use whatever special rules you please game to game.

VoidSempai wrote:
Let me help you right there with your choice : if you want to play regular chaos marine, or even cult troops, they won't be amazing anyway. So just build what you like the aesthetic of.
Death guard sucks at the moment.
Thousand sons is actually Codex : Magnus + tzangoors. If you play any kind of marine from TS codex your effectively gimping yourself.A
Of all the cult troops, only berserker and grenade launching DG pose a real threat, and they are usually pretty slow.

I don't say all this to bum you out of playing chaos, but just to say that any competitive chaos list is not chaos SPACE MARINE, just chaos in general. If you're going to be using csm, go all in in what please you. Most unit are still okay in what they do and will still be playable.

Thanks for the comment.

My personal choice aside, anyone looking to start a Chaos army right now has a lot to think about.

It's one of those rare moments where we got something good - Legion traits and more Codexes - and now it's not hard to see the downsides.

this is such a bad thread. It's a bad time to start CSM because you already own Black Legion, Alpha Legion is too popular for your liking, Iron Warriors don't have enough thematic models (even though the dex is borderline Codex: Iron Warriors), and two of the other legions that you can paint up might be getting their own Dex that you'll be able to play those models as?

this is like 1st world problems tabletop edition

 SHUPPET wrote:
this is such a bad thread. It's a bad time to start CSM because you already own Black Legion, Alpha Legion is too popular for your liking, Iron Warriors don't have enough thematic models (even though the dex is borderline Codex: Iron Warriors), and two of the other legions that you can paint up might be getting their own Dex that you'll be able to play those models as?

this is like 1st world problems tabletop edition

Thank God, for a minute there I thought no one else was gonna call this crap out. Of course it's a bad time to start a CSM army for you, you already have one! Try a different damn faction!

He's right though. New CSM are coming out. Quick everyone dump your old sculpts before people catch on. Never good to buy at the end of a product's release cycle.

EDIT: Okay the actual content of the OP is funny.

 SHUPPET wrote:
this is such a bad thread. It's a bad time to start CSM because you already own Black Legion, Alpha Legion is too popular for your liking, Iron Warriors don't have enough thematic models (even though the dex is borderline Codex: Iron Warriors), and two of the other legions that you can paint up might be getting their own Dex that you'll be able to play those models as?

this is like 1st world problems tabletop edition

Codex: Iron Warriors, except for the part where some of their most fluffy allies are dumpster garbage, kinda fething over the whole 'Codex: Iron Warriors' thing...

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Thank God, for a minute there I thought no one else was gonna call this crap out. Of course it's a bad time to start a CSM army for you, you already have one! Try a different damn faction!

No, thank you. I'll stick with Chaos (mostly.)

The point of the original post was to talk about how much has changed in 8th edition and reflect on how new options make choosing a new army more complex. The situation is a reversal of how things have been since 5th edition, when GW took Legion-specific rules away. The current state of CSMs is good and bad for someone looking to start a CSM army, and I found it a little surprising to be thinking that.

The thread is not about me, except for the fact I'm currently going through this thought process.

Apologies if talking about the models I own caused some offense, I only brought it up to illustrate the point. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

 SHUPPET wrote:
this is such a bad thread. It's a bad time to start CSM because you already own Black Legion, Alpha Legion is too popular for your liking, Iron Warriors don't have enough thematic models (even though the dex is borderline Codex: Iron Warriors), and two of the other legions that you can paint up might be getting their own Dex that you'll be able to play those models as?

this is like 1st world problems tabletop edition

A little harsh but a little true as well. But Shuppet you can't call out 1stworld problems here. Pretty much every post on this website is 1stworld problems.

However I agree with the OP ONLY in so far as, IF you were a new player looking at CSM and you would be thinking about playing emperors children or World Eaters then you'd be in a difficult spot. My buddies large squad of lovingly converted green stuffed nurgle bikers plays testament to that or the nurgle heldrakes that flooded onto ebay when the DG dex dropped.

But the answer would still be, just buy the models you like and paint them the way you like and when the glorious days of more legion specific codices come out, IF and only IF it invalidates your models you can still always have a detachment of vanilla or other CSM.

Here is the thing though man, you already play Black Legion, and you already play them at a competitive level. So why, pray tell, do you need to worry about what is coming in the future from a second army?

You don't, that is the truth. You are free friend. If you need to play a game to win just trot out the Black Legion. You don't have to worry about whether or not your second army is streamlined and min maxed, and can instead focus on building and painting models you like.

If you want to flex your Chaos Daemons and build a Word Bearers army that focuses on summoning in hard counters to your opponents force, go for it. If you want to build an Emperor's Children army using Forgeworld Kakophony Marines, go for it. If you want to build up a large force of Night Lords terror troops, and abuse Raptors with the Icon of Despair for a -3 leadership debuff... have fun.

Thats the nice thing about a second... or third... army. You don't need to worry about them being competitive or bleeding edge. Your first army can cover your bases there, and you can focus on building something that moves you on a personal level.

I play Death Guard, I started before all the new stuff came out with eighth edition, which means I have some units painted up as Death Guard that are no longer in the codex, and some units that are a bit out of date model wise (classic plague marines for one) the solution would be to use them as standard chaos space marines in an allied detachment but I don't really need them anymore as something else seems to fit the bill.
I think we're probably spoilt for choice, which to me is both a good and a bad thing, but whatever happens I think the solution is to adjust.
And if someone asked me if they should collect Chaos, I'd say absolutely, but as with any other army, I'd advise just picking what you like the look of and work around the changes that have always happened.

 akaean wrote:
Here is the thing though man, you already play Black Legion, and you already play them at a competitive level. So why, pray tell, do you need to worry about what is coming in the future from a second army?

You don't, that is the truth. You are free friend. If you need to play a game to win just trot out the Black Legion. You don't have to worry about whether or not your second army is streamlined and min maxed, and can instead focus on building and painting models you like.

If you want to flex your Chaos Daemons and build a Word Bearers army that focuses on summoning in hard counters to your opponents force, go for it. If you want to build an Emperor's Children army using Forgeworld Kakophony Marines, go for it. If you want to build up a large force of Night Lords terror troops, and abuse Raptors with the Icon of Despair for a -3 leadership debuff... have fun.

Thats the nice thing about a second... or third... army. You don't need to worry about them being competitive or bleeding edge. Your first army can cover your bases there, and you can focus on building something that moves you on a personal level.

Good points and an interesting way to think about the issue. But let's pretend for a minute that I'm not involved. We're talking about some random player looking to start a CSM army.

Does he take a Cult Legion? Fine, but he's not going to get certain units that are in the Codex. Maybe that's a problem, maybe that's not. The point is, that's different from how it was before 8th edition, you never had to think about the units you would never be able to take before.

Does he take a Codex Legion? Fine, but he's not out of the woods. 2 of those Codex Legions will likely get their own Codexes at some point in the future and his army could change dramatically (or not.) That's different from how it was before 8th edition, we've never had something to look forward to once a new Codex comes out.

Does he take a Legion just because he loves the fluff? Fine, but he's committing to a specific style of play with the Legion he chooses because of Legion traits and Stratagems. That's different from how it was before 8th edition, you could just switch up the units since all Legions performed the same on the battlefield.

Does he take a Legion just because it's popular? Fine, there's some people who do that. But now Legion traits and Stratagems get nerfed due to FAQs and it would be wise to consider the meta (for example, Alpha Legion just lost one of it's most powerful tools. I feel sorry for Alpha Legion Berzerkers and Cultist mobs right now.) That's different from previous editions, where rule updates were rare and mostly dealt with trivial clarifications.

Does he want to ally with Daemons? Fine, but there are considerations there too.

Games Workshop gave players options for how to build their Chaos army. I just hadn't stopped to consider how many there are until now, which caused me to reflect on what that must be like for other players.

There was a time when the advice you give new players was, pick a Legion you like and use them. That was safe advice since all Chaos armies performed the same. It's not really fair to say that anymore, the first question I would ask is about the player's preferred playstyle. I thought 8th edition Legion traits especially were just gimmicks, now that I have seen how people are using them I understand how important they are.

Also, when it comes to fluff, I would be asking people how much they want their army to line up with things they read about them. Black Legion has badass Abaddon in this edition, Iron Warriors don't really resemble the army we've read about. Same with Word Bearers and Thousand Sons. Certain forces line up with the narrative more than others, and that's important to some players. Hearing people moan about Tzaangor spam depresses me a little.

Again, these are not terrible problems to have. There's just this uncertainty that makes the situation more complicated.

techsoldaten wrote:The thread is not about me, except for the fact I'm currently going through this thought process.

The thread IS about you, because most of what you list isn't an issue for other people considered playing a Chaos list. Most of them aren't going to have a Black Legion army already, or care that Alpha Legion was popular earlier, or not play IW because Renegades and Heretics are wack (especially when the CSM Dex offers IW the strongest Cultists currently available). These are You problems, and not a reason to avoid buying into CSM right now.

techsoldaten wrote:Apologies if talking about the mod[list]els I own caused some offense, I only brought it up to illustrate the point. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

lol what? Nobody is offended by that, do you know how absurd that sounds? People are just incredulous because if makes literally no sense. It's a bad time for others to get into Black Legion, because you already own a Black Legion army? Are you reading what you're saying? lol

 SHUPPET wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:The thread is not about me, except for the fact I'm currently going through this thought process.

The thread IS about you, because most of what you list isn't an issue for other people considered playing a Chaos list.

Well, most people aren't thinking about it. That's why I started the thread.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Most of them aren't going to have a Black Legion army already, or care that Alpha Legion was popular earlier, or not play IW because Renegades and Heretics are wack (especially when the CSM Dex offers IW the strongest Cultists currently available). These are You problems, and not a reason to avoid buying into CSM right now.

I believe I'm speaking to issues any new player would face starting a Chaos army right now. The fact I have a couple additional issues probably isn't that important.

 SHUPPET wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:Apologies if talking about the mod[list]els I own caused some offense, I only brought it up to illustrate the point. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

lol what? Nobody is offended by that, do you know how absurd that sounds? People are just incredulous because if makes literally no sense. It's a bad time for others to get into Black Legion, because you already own a Black Legion army? Are you reading what you're saying? lol

You seem pretty offended Shuppet. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

Calling out absurdity does not mean one was offended.

As a player without a Chaos army, I’m definitely not worried about Alpha Legion being too popular, Iron Warriors not being represented (???) or having tons of Black Legion already.

Zothos wrote:
Calling out absurdity does not mean one was offended.

You would have to tell me what's absurd about my post. I have a lot of models lying around, that describes most of the people I know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:
As a player without a Chaos army, I’m definitely not worried about Alpha Legion being too popular, Iron Warriors not being represented (???) or having tons of Black Legion already.

Iron Warriors used to have a ton of armor. They haven't been the same since 4th edition.

I don't think any of the concerns raised are unique to chaos. This is for better or worse the most dynamic and fluid edition. It's not even 2 years old and look how much the meta has changed since it dropped. GW has never been this active with changing things post codex release and CA 2 is going to be another shake up. People wanted GW to be more active in the game to try to fix balance issues and with that comes the risk that your army might work differently in 6 months.

 techsoldaten wrote:

meleti wrote:
As a player without a Chaos army, I’m definitely not worried about Alpha Legion being too popular, Iron Warriors not being represented (???) or having tons of Black Legion already.

Iron Warriors used to have a ton of armor. They haven't been the same since 4th edition.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Zothos wrote:
Calling out absurdity does not mean one was offended.

You would have to tell me what's absurd about my post. I have a lot of models lying around, that describes most of the people I know.

you were told what was absurd about your post and your only response is "lel sorry for offending you then".

Having some models laying around is not what you said in your OP. You said your Black Legion army is done. Having some models laying around for an army is a great reason TO start an army.

Almost none of your points make sense, least of which the one talking about different Legions having different rulesets. You realise that's a thing for every major race in the game right? None of that is at all a logical reason not to build into CSM. I feel like you just want to find a reason to complain about CSM.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:Apologies if talking about the mod[list]els I own caused some offense, I only brought it up to illustrate the point. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

lol what? Nobody is offended by that, do you know how absurd that sounds? People are just incredulous because if makes literally no sense. It's a bad time for others to get into Black Legion, because you already own a Black Legion army? Are you reading what you're saying? lol

You seem pretty offended Shuppet. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

this thread is starting to seem like a poor troll. Is this really going to be your response to everything that talks about how illogical your points are?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

meleti wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

meleti wrote:
As a player without a Chaos army, I’m definitely not worried about Alpha Legion being too popular, Iron Warriors not being represented (???) or having tons of Black Legion already.

Iron Warriors used to have a ton of armor. They haven't been the same since 4th edition.

CSM have tons of vehicles in the codex alone, and even more with Forge World. If you want to collect an Iron Warriors force with lots of tanks and vehicles, the options are overwhelmingly there. And furthermore, what they were in 3E doesn’t sound very relevant to a new Chaos player.

On top of this they have tons of good stylistic choices in the dex like Obliterators, Warpsmiths, Havocs, Fleshmetal, they can finally take Knights, and I'd they DO want Guard tanks, the cost is 25 pt HQ tax for an RnH spearhead, and the tanks are all identical to AM ones minus the Regiment trait, and it's totally viable (similar to GSC). If you want your cultist fodders you obviously buy them from the CSM dex that's the whole strength of the army, nobody does cheap Fearless bodies as good as IW. I don't think its ever been a better time to bebe an Iron Warrior player. I said it before and I'll say it again, first world tabletop problems, this thread is an excellent example that some people will never be happy

 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

Zothos wrote:
Calling out absurdity does not mean one was offended.

You would have to tell me what's absurd about my post. I have a lot of models lying around, that describes most of the people I know.

you were told what was absurd about your post and your only response is "lel sorry for offending you then".

Having some models laying around is not what you said in your OP. You said your Black Legion army is done. Having some models laying around for an army is a great reason TO start an army.

Almost none of your points make sense, least of which the one talking about different Legions having different rulesets. You realise that's a thing for every major race in the game right? None of that is at all a logical reason not to build into CSM. I feel like you just want to find a reason to complain about CSM.

Your complaints are baffling.

The third sentence in my original post spells out some of the models I have sitting around. That's right after I state the fact I'm thinking about using them for a new army.

I believe I've been clear that the issue is not with the fact the Legion traits exist but that this is a significant change from previous editions. You can't really tell someone 'play whatever you want' anymore, it takes a fair amount of decision making to decide on a Legion. People still do that in these forums.

The fact that other armies have enjoyed this kind of richness for a while now is irrelevant. I'm talking about differences in a thought process.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:Apologies if talking about the mod[list]els I own caused some offense, I only brought it up to illustrate the point. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

lol what? Nobody is offended by that, do you know how absurd that sounds? People are just incredulous because if makes literally no sense. It's a bad time for others to get into Black Legion, because you already own a Black Legion army? Are you reading what you're saying? lol

You seem pretty offended Shuppet. Would it make you feel better if I amended the original post?

this thread is starting to seem like a poor troll. Is this really going to be your response to everything that talks about how illogical your points are?

Please understand, I'm genuinely trying to grapple with your responses. They're simultaneously hostile, accusatory and ignorant of what was actually said.

In general, people call that offense. Given the name and icon you chose for your profile, it's hard to know what to make of all that.

 SHUPPET wrote:

meleti wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

meleti wrote:
As a player without a Chaos army, I’m definitely not worried about Alpha Legion being too popular, Iron Warriors not being represented (???) or having tons of Black Legion already.

Iron Warriors used to have a ton of armor. They haven't been the same since 4th edition.

CSM have tons of vehicles in the codex alone, and even more with Forge World. If you want to collect an Iron Warriors force with lots of tanks and vehicles, the options are overwhelmingly there. And furthermore, what they were in 3E doesn’t sound very relevant to a new Chaos player.

On top of this they have tons of stylistic choices like Obliterators, Warpsmiths, they can finally take Knights, and I'd they DO want Guard tanks, the cost is 25 pt HQ tax for an RnH spearhead, and the tanks are all identical to AM ones minus the Regiment trait, and it's totally viable (similar to GSC). If you want your cultist fodders you obviously buy them from the CSM dex that's the whole strength of the army, nobody does cheap Fearless bodies as good as IW. I don't think its ever been a better time to bebe an Iron Warrior player. I said it before and I'll say it again, first world tabletop problems, this thread is an excellent example that some people will never be happy

That's great you are so satisfied with Iron Warriors and the performance of Renegades and Heretics. Other people have different opinions.

Not sure how you see the fact I wouldn't want to build an Iron Warriors army as a complaint and not a preference.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Your complaints are baffling.

The third sentence in my original post spells out some of the models I have sitting around. That's right after I state the fact I'm thinking about using them for a new army.

You are the one with the complaints, who made a thread to voice them, this is my response to them. Baffling is the right word for it. You specifically said that this thread isn't about you personally it's about people considering starting a Chaos army, but then you list your own personal, completed Black Legion army as reason for why it's a bad time to start the army. Nothing about that makes any sense. And that's just your first point. How are you not grasping how illogical that is? Or how illogical it is to assume that the popularity of an army will dissuade most people from playing Alpha Legion? (hell I feel like that statement is self contradictory of itself). Or how illogical it is to declare that people should somehow feel limited in building their thematic Iron Warriors army and thus shouldn't do it, even though almost everything from their fluff is playable and more? Mutilators are wack but that has never been any different.

 techsoldaten wrote:
I believe I've been clear that the issue is not with the fact the Legion traits exist but that this is a significant change from previous editions. You can't really tell someone 'play whatever you want' anymore, it takes a fair amount of decision making to decide on a Legion. People still do that in these forums.

The fact that other armies have enjoyed this kind of richness for a while now is irrelevant. I'm talking about differences in a thought process.

Other armies have enjoyed this kind of richness what? Chapter tactics equivalents are a new thing for pretty much every army in the game this edition. 'Bad time to start a Chaos army' makes no sense when the same thing applies to every other race in the game, it's the same story for everyone so it has no impact on whether or not to start a Chaos army or something else.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

On top of this they have tons of stylistic choices like Obliterators, Warpsmiths, they can finally take Knights, and I'd they DO want Guard tanks, the cost is 25 pt HQ tax for an RnH spearhead, and the tanks are all identical to AM ones minus the Regiment trait, and it's totally viable (similar to GSC). If you want your cultist fodders you obviously buy them from the CSM dex that's the whole strength of the army, nobody does cheap Fearless bodies as good as IW. I don't think its ever been a better time to bebe an Iron Warrior player. I said it before and I'll say it again, first world tabletop problems, this thread is an excellent example that some people will never be happy

That's great you are so satisfied with Iron Warriors and the performance of Renegades and Heretics. Other people have different opinions.

Not sure how you see the fact I wouldn't want to build an Iron Warriors army as a complaint and not a preference.

This thread isn't about what you personally want though is it - it's about your opinion that it's a bad time for others to start an Iron Warrior army, and the reasons you gave them for that are totally illogical. Your response "well I still personally don't want to start an Iron Warriors army and that's my preference" is not a counter to this. That was always your choice. It doesn't make it a bad time to start the army for others. This shouldn't be this difficult.