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The way i've thought of balancing Ynarri is to scale back the action instead of the soulburst:
Movement phase - move 1d6 (instead of full movement)
Psychic phase - cast a power on 1d6 (instead of 2d6)
Shooting phase - only hit on 6s (like overwatch, maybe a strategem to hit on 5s)
Charge phase - charge 1d6 (instead of 2d6)

Since the actions are less reliable you only get a fraction of the units power instead of doubling it. Since the actions arent that powerful you could allow them to do soulbursts like they originally did. You could also have a 3 CP strategem to allow them to use a regular action during a soulburst instead of the watered down version.

Bharring wrote:
But should a Ynnari Harlequinn be able to ride in a Ynnari Wave Serpent?

That doesn't sound too bad, until you wonder if a Ynnari Fire Dragon should be able to ride in a Ynnari Venom...

Honestly being able to throw gak in a Raider is the only reason I considered making an Ynari army in the first place in 7th. Dire Avengers on a gunboat? Yes please!

 CptJericho wrote:
The way i've thought of balancing Ynarri is to scale back the action instead of the soulburst:
Movement phase - move 1d6 (instead of full movement)
Psychic phase - cast a power on 1d6 (instead of 2d6)
Shooting phase - only hit on 6s (like overwatch, maybe a strategem to hit on 5s)
Charge phase - charge 1d6 (instead of 2d6)

Since the actions are less reliable you only get a fraction of the units power instead of doubling it. Since the actions arent that powerful you could allow them to do soulbursts like they originally did. You could also have a 3 CP strategem to allow them to use a regular action during a soulburst instead of the watered down version.

I'm not sure I'd ever be tempted to give up my chapter tactic equivalents, free relic, and a decent warlord trait for 3.5" of movement, a 1/3rd chance to cast smite, or an overwatch attack. I see where you're going with that conceptually though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
But should a Ynnari Harlequinn be able to ride in a Ynnari Wave Serpent?

That doesn't sound too bad, until you wonder if a Ynnari Fire Dragon should be able to ride in a Ynnari Venom...

Honestly being able to throw gak in a Raider is the only reason I considered making an Ynari army in the first place in 7th. Dire Avengers on a gunboat? Yes please!

I like my avengers and dragons in a raider as much as anyone, but let's acknowledge that that opens up a new can of balance worms. ^_^;

Slipspace wrote:


Obviously that sucks for you, but I don't think the small percentage of gamers who only care about Ynarri rather than Eldar more generally should determine the best course of action for balancing the game. I just think Ynarri was a terrible idea in the first place - the fluff is like the worst type of fan-fiction and the faction has never been balanced in actual play, because the central gimmick of the army is fundamentally broken. What's really annoying is that GW had a glimpse of how broken it would be when they did a similar combined army of the Elven factions in the End Times for Warhammer. It broke the game in ways never before seen, but since the game was coming to an end it wasn't that big of a deal. The same could have been true of Ynarri - they could have just removed them in 8th with options to take the 3 characters in a regular Eldar army. Instead we have to deal with the balance problems the faction introduces, further compounded by being part of a larger faction that has some balance issues of its own, making it very difficult to balance all of it properly.

I've seen a lot of people say that the bonus action mechanics are beyond redemption, but chaos has a lot of the same bonus actions and more reliably (albeit with a CP cost attached). They can get bonus movement with warp time. They can shoot twice with slaaneshi units. Berzerkers can fight twice. I'm not under the impression that many people feel chaos is busted because of these options, so what is it about the aeldari/ynnari that makes those same effects "fundamentally broken?" Sincere question. Or maybe you feel that those same rules are busted in the other factions in which they appear?

As for getting rid of factions because some people (who presumably don't play that army) don't like the fluff, well, I hope you don't play any of the imperial or chaos factions I find poorly written or silly.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Slipspace wrote:


Obviously that sucks for you, but I don't think the small percentage of gamers who only care about Ynarri rather than Eldar more generally should determine the best course of action for balancing the game. I just think Ynarri was a terrible idea in the first place - the fluff is like the worst type of fan-fiction and the faction has never been balanced in actual play, because the central gimmick of the army is fundamentally broken. What's really annoying is that GW had a glimpse of how broken it would be when they did a similar combined army of the Elven factions in the End Times for Warhammer. It broke the game in ways never before seen, but since the game was coming to an end it wasn't that big of a deal. The same could have been true of Ynarri - they could have just removed them in 8th with options to take the 3 characters in a regular Eldar army. Instead we have to deal with the balance problems the faction introduces, further compounded by being part of a larger faction that has some balance issues of its own, making it very difficult to balance all of it properly.

I've seen a lot of people say that the bonus action mechanics are beyond redemption, but chaos has a lot of the same bonus actions and more reliably (albeit with a CP cost attached). They can get bonus movement with warp time. They can shoot twice with slaaneshi units. Berzerkers can fight twice. I'm not under the impression that many people feel chaos is busted because of these options, so what is it about the aeldari/ynnari that makes those same effects "fundamentally broken?" Sincere question. Or maybe you feel that those same rules are busted in the other factions in which they appear?

Fixing ynnari isn't something really hard to do.
Reduce the squad limit on reapers and spears. Done.

Ynnari are not a problem. Only those 2 units are a problem, and not only when Ynnari. They suffer from being extremely good buff targets, so you fix them by reducing the bonuses they receive from buffs i.e. reduce the squad limit.

Spoletta wrote:
Fixing ynnari isn't something really hard to do.
Reduce the squad limit on reapers and spears. Done.

Ynnari are not a problem. Only those 2 units are a problem, and not only when Ynnari. They suffer from being extremely good buff targets, so you fix them by reducing the bonuses they receive from buffs i.e. reduce the squad limit.

But then Spectres and big clumps of Windriders / Skyweavers become the FoTM abuse unit

Spoletta wrote:
Fixing ynnari isn't something really hard to do.
Reduce the squad limit on reapers and spears. Done.

Ynnari are not a problem. Only those 2 units are a problem, and not only when Ynnari. They suffer from being extremely good buff targets, so you fix them by reducing the bonuses they receive from buffs i.e. reduce the squad limit.

Then you dont know Ynnari well.

Skyweavers, Double shooting, thats 12D6 haywire shots
Guardians 40 bolters with ap on 6's, shooting twice, that could have a 4++ 2+, move after shooting 1st time to clear all your bubble wrap in 1 turn.
Wyches the ability to have 41 S5 attacks that can attack 3 times, where 1/2 gets re-rolls and ap
Hellions (I know this is crazy) but easily can have 40 S6 2D attacks, attacking twice or moving twice to charge turn 1


There are more, the problem with Ynnari is you are doubling the effectiveness of a unit, with Doom/Jinx/Guide you can 4x or 5x that units damage. Take Hellions for an example, Doom/Jinx their target 80 attacks with 2D with your vehicle only getting a 50/50 save while they are re-roll all wounds, it can do over 30 wounds to a Knight, without the Double attacks, its still 16 wounds, and that is before Stratagems. When a 200pt unit with 2 powers and 1 stratagem can melee down a Castellan knight in 1 turn, thats pretty damn good. Yeah its really "400pts" but those CWE HQ's are going to be helping all game non-stop, if they help for 4 turns, the 200 points is now 50pts per turn, so its really only 250pt unit killing a 600-700pt knight. Yeah you can say it needs to get there, but b.c of Fly and the 30" movement thanks to Ynnari it isnt hard to do.

Ynnari can make any unit outstanding when played well, and good units are getting nerf so they no longer will work without Ynnari.


I want my Hellions to work and be buff without fear of Ynnari, I dont want Shiny Spears to be nerf again, i dont want CWE to have nothing outside of Ynnari, I want Ynnari to be fix.

I've seen a lot of people say that the bonus action mechanics are beyond redemption, but chaos has a lot of the same bonus actions and more reliably (albeit with a CP cost attached). They can get bonus movement with warp time. They can shoot twice with slaaneshi units. Berzerkers can fight twice. I'm not under the impression that many people feel chaos is busted because of these options, so what is it about the aeldari/ynnari that makes those same effects "fundamentally broken?" Sincere question. Or maybe you feel that those same rules are busted in the other factions in which they appear?

All armies have to pay a cost ot use their stuff. An Inari player has it for no cost, and he does it on top of souping, while not really souping, but still getting the benefits.
If sudden;y GK got to cast all their psychic powers twice or for free, they would turn in to a real army, even with the less efficient points cost they have.

IMO the problem with ynari might not be as bad as we all think it is....

IF the universe hadnt adopted the ITC ruin rules:

When I go to events, and talk to competitive players, no one seems content with an events terrain, unless there is at least one L shaped ruin in each corner of every table. This table design, imo is the one defining reason for the Ynari build dominance in almost all 'competitve' events of the past few years.

Having easily accessible terrain, that their insanely fast melle elements, and shooting elements can happily spend most of the game hiding behind, while each turn jumping out hand hosing down units with dark reapers before phasing back through its walls, and deffending against melle threats with fresh units of spears, is what gives the army its power. Not because they are especially deadly, but because, they only ever have to interact with the enemy on their terms.

Karol wrote:

I've seen a lot of people say that the bonus action mechanics are beyond redemption, but chaos has a lot of the same bonus actions and more reliably (albeit with a CP cost attached). They can get bonus movement with warp time. They can shoot twice with slaaneshi units. Berzerkers can fight twice. I'm not under the impression that many people feel chaos is busted because of these options, so what is it about the aeldari/ynnari that makes those same effects "fundamentally broken?" Sincere question. Or maybe you feel that those same rules are busted in the other factions in which they appear?

All armies have to pay a cost ot use their stuff. An Inari player has it for no cost, and he does it on top of souping, while not really souping, but still getting the benefits.
If sudden;y GK got to cast all their psychic powers twice or for free, they would turn in to a real army, even with the less efficient points cost they have.

I have no problem paying for the soulburst stuff. Maybe a relic or something allows you to pick a unit before the battle round/turn that you can allocate soulburst to that unit only. or you can only soulburst with a character. maybe in the detachment they could be limited to how many models are in each unit(reapers, etc). or maybe make it like a morale type thing, the more models in unit the less chance of a soulburst(roll 2d6, must beat # of friendly models in X # of inches. It might be cool that the less models in the unit the better they get, so sounds kinda fluffy that the faction with a God of death gains power the more death that happens

there's lots of stuff they can do to alleviate all of the hate on the tabletop that doesnt include deleting them as a faction.
I happen to like the way that Ynarri were introduced and it makes sense that all of those souls in the infinity circuit would be focused as much as they would be in the warp(minus she who thirsts).

If you(in general)dont like something, maybe instead of automatically going straight to delete as a first response, you could bring options to the table and have a meritorious (while vigorous) discourse.

Karol wrote:

I've seen a lot of people say that the bonus action mechanics are beyond redemption, but chaos has a lot of the same bonus actions and more reliably (albeit with a CP cost attached). They can get bonus movement with warp time. They can shoot twice with slaaneshi units. Berzerkers can fight twice. I'm not under the impression that many people feel chaos is busted because of these options, so what is it about the aeldari/ynnari that makes those same effects "fundamentally broken?" Sincere question. Or maybe you feel that those same rules are busted in the other factions in which they appear?

All armies have to pay a cost ot use their stuff. An Inari player has it for no cost, and he does it on top of souping, while not really souping, but still getting the benefits.
If sudden;y GK got to cast all their psychic powers twice or for free, they would turn in to a real army, even with the less efficient points cost they have.

Well, the OP is suggesting giving soulbursts basically a command point cost, just like the various stratagems that do the same types of effects, so there's at least one way to give ynnari a more similar cost rather than removing them entirely.

I'm not sure what you mean by "souping , while not really souping, but still getting the benefits." You know that aeldari/ynnari are no longer valid keywords for a detachment, right? If you want both craftworld and dark eldar units, you have to take different detachments for each. If you want a given detachment to be ynnari, you have to have an ynnari HQ in that detachment. Having a ynnari HQ in one of those detachments means a ynnari special character must be your warlord meaning you're stuck with one of the crummy traits from the main book. Any ynnari detachments in the army lose their chapter tactic equivalents. Your army gives up its free relic.

Ynnari come out ahead on the bargain, but a warlord trait, at least one detachment's worth of chapter tactics, and a relic isn't nothing. Plus, outside of a single power that you have a slightly better than 50% chance of casting (with Yvraine), soul bursting only triggers if the last model in a unit to be wiped out is within 7" of a ynnari unit. So you have to get danger close to trigger the soul burst in the first place, and then your opponent can sometimes just deny you the burst by removing his last casualty from the back.

Your GK comparison is also a little confusing. You know that soulbursting doesn't let you use the same psychic power multiple times, right? When you are soulbursting with a psychic power, it's often to use whichever power you cared about the least because you've already attempted your other powers.

Ynnari are doing great at tournaments. They have some OP combos. But their problems seem very fixable. If orks can load up on CP and use shoot again, fight again, and da jump every turn, then ynnari can probably find a reasonable parody.

I really wish the shifting goalposts arguments would stop. "If reapers weren't busted, then they'd just do it with the 'next unit up'."

Come on, there's a HUGE difference in power between Dark Reapers shooting at you and flipping Guardians. If they're dropping Stratagems (Webway Strike), warlord traits and relics (detachment building for Ynnari), and now potency (nerfed reapers)... no matter what unit is "next up" for the broken Soul Burst mechanic, it won't be worse than 10 reapers crapping all over your day twice a turn. Which means Ynnari will be affected in the tournament standings, which is the point of the thread, right?

Fix reapers, ffs.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I really wish the shifting goalposts arguments would stop. "If reapers weren't busted, then they'd just do it with the 'next unit up'."

Come on, there's a HUGE difference in power between Dark Reapers shooting at you and flipping Guardians. If they're dropping Stratagems (Webway Strike), warlord traits and relics (detachment building for Ynnari), and now potency (nerfed reapers)... no matter what unit is "next up" for the broken Soul Burst mechanic, it won't be worse than 10 reapers crapping all over your day twice a turn. Which means Ynnari will be affected in the tournament standings, which is the point of the thread, right?

Fix reapers, ffs.

Yea lower their pts and make the unit max like 7, so CFW players can have decent heavy support.

The salt on this thread is amazing.

I think the best way to change Ynnari would be to eliminate them as a faction and to include those three characters in the Crafworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari codex as standard HQs and LoW.

 Blackie wrote:
I think the best way to change Ynnari would be to eliminate them as a faction and to include those three characters in the Crafworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari codex as standard HQs and LoW.

I'm actually not 100% against this, despite my other posts in this thread defending the ynnari. The Strength From Death mechanics aren't the thing that makes me love the ynnari. The fluff is. In the same way that I feel most if not all of the marine chapters could reasonably be condensed down into one or two books, you could probably just have the Ynnari characters be treated as special characters in other books. Sort of like the Phoenix Lords. In fact, simply allowing various eldar factions to replace their traits/masques/obssessions with "Ynnari" might be a decent way to streamline the sprawling mess that are the ynnari rules. Like, there's not really much of a reason to give up battle focus and rising crescendo and PFP just because you hang out with Ynnead's crowd. Ynnari as a "craftworld" or "kabal" could just give you rules that make sense for that particular codex's units. Maybe you gain Salamander rerolls on units who lost one or more models last turn and some stratagems that trigger on unit destruction.

The whole bonus actions reflecting invigoration from death thing is cool, but I'd argue not entirely critical to what makes ynnari ynnari.

I would be ok with 3 HQ's that added a extra army rule, if a unit (friend of foe) dieds near them, then you get their Aura buff and it effects all Aeldari.

Aura could be different for each one.

Many ideas, can be anything. But yeah, i'd rather have CWE/DE/Quins not get nerf due to Ynnari being a must in soup.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I think the best way to change Ynnari would be to eliminate them as a faction and to include those three characters in the Crafworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari codex as standard HQs and LoW.

I'm actually not 100% against this, despite my other posts in this thread defending the ynnari. The Strength From Death mechanics aren't the thing that makes me love the ynnari. The fluff is. In the same way that I feel most if not all of the marine chapters could reasonably be condensed down into one or two books, you could probably just have the Ynnari characters be treated as special characters in other books. Sort of like the Phoenix Lords. In fact, simply allowing various eldar factions to replace their traits/masques/obssessions with "Ynnari" might be a decent way to streamline the sprawling mess that are the ynnari rules. Like, there's not really much of a reason to give up battle focus and rising crescendo and PFP just because you hang out with Ynnead's crowd. Ynnari as a "craftworld" or "kabal" could just give you rules that make sense for that particular codex's units. Maybe you gain Salamander rerolls on units who lost one or more models last turn and some stratagems that trigger on unit destruction.

The whole bonus actions reflecting invigoration from death thing is cool, but I'd argue not entirely critical to what makes ynnari ynnari.

Most of CFW units don`t have battle focus or are not really units you expect to do much. Don`t really want to have more HQ like the Phoenix Lords, overpriced and mostly useless.

Kill them. Kill them with fire. Now.

Seriously though, having a cheapshot psychic power to give a free soulburst is one of the big problems. Soulburst should only ever occur when something dies, so (a) your opponent has some freedom of action to choose what unit they try to kill and limit the enemies that can take advantage, and (b) it is tied to an actual significant non-renewable loss. It should not be possible ever to get Soulbursts through psychic powers, stratagems, artefacts or other cheaty-eldar shennanigans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Purifying Tempest wrote:
I really wish the shifting goalposts arguments would stop. "If reapers weren't busted, then they'd just do it with the 'next unit up'."

Come on, there's a HUGE difference in power between Dark Reapers shooting at you and flipping Guardians. If they're dropping Stratagems (Webway Strike), warlord traits and relics (detachment building for Ynnari), and now potency (nerfed reapers)... no matter what unit is "next up" for the broken Soul Burst mechanic, it won't be worse than 10 reapers crapping all over your day twice a turn. Which means Ynnari will be affected in the tournament standings, which is the point of the thread, right?

Fix reapers, ffs.

QFT. Reapers with Yvrainne sat behind them giving them 2 shots a turn it the only experience I have had that is conclusively overpowered. Not saying there arent others, but that is the easiest one to see and play.

Cheeslord wrote:
Kill them. Kill them with fire. Now.

Seriously though, having a cheapshot psychic power to give a free soulburst is one of the big problems. Soulburst should only ever occur when something dies, so (a) your opponent has some freedom of action to choose what unit they try to kill and limit the enemies that can take advantage, and (b) it is tied to an actual significant non-renewable loss. It should not be possible ever to get Soulbursts through psychic powers, stratagems, artefacts or other cheaty-eldar shennanigans.

I mean i get the pointy-ear hatred but Fire?
What ever did fire do to you to deserve such a fate?

Jokes aside, the double shooting/etc, effects need to cost CP, that's the reason comparatively no one complains about CSM, which bring alot of these double phase effects to the table but with a CP cost.

I like to pair Cat Lady to Gman. Both make balance really hard. Unless they are incredibly points-expensive (Gman is about there), they buff their doods so much that there isn't a fair balance point between units with them and units without them. Which means the balance is either unfair to people who play against them, or people who play those factions without them.

That said, they are losing some luster. The Battle Brothers change and the bump in Reaper points put a dent in them. Spears are rumored to be going up too. Ten Windriders or 20 Guardians or max Spectres might be their next-best - or maybe even Spears are still good at their new points cost. But regardless of which way that goes, the gap between them and Imperial Soup (and other contenders) will lessen.

If spears only go up the rumored 3 points they will still be worth the cost, but “the” ynnari list is at a breaking point where the only way it can handle point increases is just straight dropping units. IMO after the first 2 nerfs to ynnari, everything since then has just pushed them into more of a monobuild without doing much to actually decrease their power.

Marin wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
I think the best way to change Ynnari would be to eliminate them as a faction and to include those three characters in the Crafworlds, Harlequins and Drukhari codex as standard HQs and LoW.

I'm actually not 100% against this, despite my other posts in this thread defending the ynnari. The Strength From Death mechanics aren't the thing that makes me love the ynnari. The fluff is. In the same way that I feel most if not all of the marine chapters could reasonably be condensed down into one or two books, you could probably just have the Ynnari characters be treated as special characters in other books. Sort of like the Phoenix Lords. In fact, simply allowing various eldar factions to replace their traits/masques/obssessions with "Ynnari" might be a decent way to streamline the sprawling mess that are the ynnari rules. Like, there's not really much of a reason to give up battle focus and rising crescendo and PFP just because you hang out with Ynnead's crowd. Ynnari as a "craftworld" or "kabal" could just give you rules that make sense for that particular codex's units. Maybe you gain Salamander rerolls on units who lost one or more models last turn and some stratagems that trigger on unit destruction.

The whole bonus actions reflecting invigoration from death thing is cool, but I'd argue not entirely critical to what makes ynnari ynnari.

Most of CFW units don`t have battle focus or are not really units you expect to do much. Don`t really want to have more HQ like the Phoenix Lords, overpriced and mostly useless.

I only mentioned Battle Focus because it's a little odd that you forget how to shoot on the run when you start hanging out with Yvraine and pals. It wasn't a comment on balance or mechanics so much as me painting a vague image of what Ynnari-as-subfactions within other 'dexes might look like. I.e. you could probably retain battle focus and then gain Craftworld: Ynnari benefits instead of Craftworld: Alaitoc.

I for one actually love the Phoenix Lords. I dig their fluff, they're cheap enough to not ruin whatever list you put them in, and my first model was Baharoth. But then, I'm one of those crazy people who sometimes plays games that aren't at or in preparation for tournaments.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Jokes aside, the double shooting/etc, effects need to cost CP, that's the reason comparatively no one complains about CSM, which bring alot of these double phase effects to the table but with a CP cost.

I feel there's a little wiggle room there. The OP's first post presented "CP-but-not-CP" that would fuel soulbursts. My own pitch even turns soulburst actions into stratagems. In a system where we keep soulburst actions but make some of them cost more than others (making shooting cost 3CP or Soul Burst Tokens, for instance), then having Word of the Phoenix generate a single extra Token might not be utterly game breaking. Especially now that you only cast it a little more than half the time without spending CP on a reroll (Yvraine basically needs to roll a 7 for it).

I could play daemon's advocate and point out that you're theoretically spending points on a Ynnari psyker in place of spending CP, but I won't as Yvraine is too good a deal for her points for that to really be a downside.

I don’t think eliminating them as a faction is the best solution. I think there are better ways some of which people have mentioned already, but another alternative would be instead of killing the faction off- build the faction up. A novel idea I know.

If GW would make full fledged ynnari kits and fill out the faction to have ynnari specific units balanced around either a revamped Sfd rule, or making it so the units are balanced specifically around sfd and keeping sfd unique to the new ynnari units that imo would be a better alternative then just axing a faction that has the potential to be real cool and fun.

As it stands currently ynnari have two units that are over priced and meh at best, and yvraine which on her own isn’t that impressive unless you team her up with an already strong unit to spam word of the Phoenix on. Another alternative could just be remove word of the Phoenix. Losing the on demand sfd would greatly hinder how the faction currently plays.