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Ynnari is the problem, not CWE/DE/Quins. Aeldari army without Ynnari (outside of a couple certain DE lists) mainly Quins/CWE base are not scary at all and rather underpower.

Ynnari has 2 main problems

1) Out of turn/Phase sequence sequences
2) Extremely good specialist units doing what they are good at twice

Anytime you do something out of sequence, its already good and hard to balance, then on top of that letting a specialist unit able to preform what they are good at a second time when you need it, is just asking to break the game.

Ok so how to fix it while maintaining the fluff? Well thats not very hard, one way keeps it the same but well balanced, other ways require rewrites. I have 2 main ideas how to fix Ynnari.


First way, keep it basically the same, but add 1 more mechanic that is easier to balance and removes out of turn sequence. The second is a complete change, but is extremely easy to play with and effects the full army and giving the option of less played units a viable options to be played.


First option: Tokens

Change the rules to say:
Strength from Death: "Whenever any unit is destroyed while within 7" of a Ynnari unit, or the Ynnari unit itself has been destroyed, you gain 1 Soulburst token, if it was a character, instead gain 2, at the start of any phase you may spend the Soulburst tokens in order to preform a Soulburst action, follow the rules for the Soulburst action"

Soulburst: In your turn, at the start of any phase. When you choose a unit to make a Soulburst actions, spend the Soulburst tokens and preform the action, these actions do not stop the unit from preforming its normal phase, i.e if it used 2CP to move, it still can move normally in the movement phase after. These actions are in the phase, you must preform them before any normal actions and each unit can only preform a soulburst action once per turn.

Movement Phase: Cost 2: The unit can move, advance, or fallback, it is treated as being moved, if it advanced or fellback it is being treat as so.
Psychic Phase: Cost 2: The unit may cast 1 power, this does not let you cast the same power more than once, it only allows you the ability to cast an additional time
Shooting Phase: Cost 3: The unit may shoot, anything that would effect their shooting still does like normal, i.e if you moved in the movement phase you are still treated as being moved
Combat Phase: Cost 3: The unit may fight, this still allows the pile in and consolidate moves

The idea behind this is it wont break phase sequence, all Soulburst actions are in their own phases still. It also slows down turn 1 and 2 and speeds up turn 3 and 4. The opponent now has a chance to kill off units before they get to make actions, but at the same time if the opponent plays poorly AKA picks the wrong units to kill, it will hurt them late game. This makes it impossible to move or cast twice in turn 1. This also makes the game a bit more fun for both sides, you know when double actions will happen, you can prevent some of them and just in general more counter play, having killed 1 unit isnt enough (outside of a character) to preform the actions as well, and the more damaging actions will take even longer.

The power would be change to "Add 1 Soulburst tokens" the fluff behind it would be that the caster is gather the dead souls/powers of outside the battle.


Second Option: Token system 2, Buff chart




Third Option Army wide Buff chart

Change the rules to say:
Strength from Death: "Whenever any unit you gain 1 Soulburst token, if it was a character, instead gain 2"

Soulburst: At the start of any phase (yours of opponents), you can pick any number of units and spend any number of Soulburst tokens to give them a buff. Each unit however can only have one buff at a time. Each buff is 1 Soulburst token, once that one token is spent mark the unit in a way so you and your opponent knows. Vehicles can not be effected.

Fortified Strength: The unit is -1 to be wounded
Fortified Agility: The unit is -1 to be hit
Fortified Shields: The unit adds +1 to their saves
Fortified Stance: The unit adds +2 to their Leadership
Great Speed: The unit adds +2 to their movement and advance rolls
Great Strength: The unit adds +1 to wound
Great Dexterity: The unit adds +1 to hit
Great Precision: The unit adds a -1AP to melee weapon
Great Knowledge: The caster adds 1 to Cast or Deny rolls

The idea of this is to just throw away how Ynnari works and make them have buffs based off dead units (a bit more fluffy in a way), making it a very clean and easy rule.



What do you think? What are some of your ideas?

Added note: I play mostly only Aeldari, i also play Nids, and SOB, i know how powerful Ynnari can be, but mostly, i dont like how it makes balancing Aeldari extremely hard, if Ynnari wasnt a thing, i truly feel Aeldari would be more fun to play.

Doesn't that suffer from "Here are some CP, but they aren't really CP"?

Why not:
SfD: "When [current generation conditions], gain 1 CP. This is CP is not limited to one per turn. These CP may only be spent on stratagems that target friendly models with the Ynnari keyword."
SfD actions: Turn them into Stratagems. Tweak as needed.

Suddenly, Ynnari are much more in-line with the game.

Tokens could be CP, the purpose is the idea.

I view the CP version as the better form of the OP's. His idea, cleaned up some.

I'm not sure if it's a *good* change (probably?). I'm just trying to put it in it's best form.

My pitch is pretty similar to option 1:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746368.page

I proposed treating the tokens as pseudo-CP that can't be used for normal stratagems to cut down on unintended interactions. Having a new resource to fuel Agents of Vect, for instance, might be problematic.

Having ynnari characters be worth two tokens is interesting but maybe unnecessarry. I should know this, but my codex isn't in front of me. Are lhameans characters?

The buff chart has a nice feel to it. Viscerally rewarding as you slap a bunch of power ups onto your army. Some of those seem significantly more powerful than others though. -1 to hit, in an army that already has lots of to-hit manipulation, might be a bit much. I'd never spend resources on +2 Leadership over that. Fortified shields doesn't seem to make a ton of sense for armor saves (drinking souls doesn't seem like it should make banshee armor thicker), and I would worry that buffing certain units' saves by 1 reliably, especially in conjunction with Protect, could be a bit much.

So it's a cool concept, but I think I prefer the fire-and-forget approach.

yeah that was my thinking as well, not being CP means you cant use stratagems with the tokens.

But if others want to be CP's i'm glad to here their PoV even if i dont agree with it.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
yeah that was my thinking as well, not being CP means you cant use stratagems with the tokens.

But if others want to be CP's i'm glad to here their PoV even if i dont agree with it.

I'd be interested if they did act independently from stratagems or have a special "phase".

maybe have it be a form of battle forged in the list stage, you start off with x # of soul charge and like already stated do a soulburst when a+b=c.

CP generation for Soulburst is interesting and easier to balance than the current rules. My preference would be the easiest solution: get rid of them altogether. It's weird to me that a faction that's existed for all of 3 years, only has 3 models unique to it and has caused so many balance problems from the moment it was created isn't simply allowed to die (and not Soulburst back into life). Seriously, would anyone really be put out if Ynnari ceased to be? It's not like all your models would become obsolete.

Slipspace wrote:
CP generation for Soulburst is interesting and easier to balance than the current rules. My preference would be the easiest solution: get rid of them altogether. It's weird to me that a faction that's existed for all of 3 years, only has 3 models unique to it and has caused so many balance problems from the moment it was created isn't simply allowed to die (and not Soulburst back into life). Seriously, would anyone really be put out if Ynnari ceased to be? It's not like all your models would become obsolete.

well considering that the only reason I have any pointy ears is Ynarri, that might not necessarily work. I'm not really interested in playing them(harli/cwe/drukhari) otherwise so.....

They could just make it a narrative option and "ban" it in tourney.

Or they could just fix them and differentiate them further from "normal".

Because if all the Ynarri rules and models died, Ynead would be born, but tens of thousands of years too soon. Being born before Slanesh means Slanesh eats him instead of the other way around.

Because Chaos Gods are like fliers in 7E.

Please don't take this post seriously.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More on topic:
If GK and Corsairs (among others) are allowed to suck so bad for so long, why not do the same to Ynnari? They could just further nerf them into oblivion (basically, neuter SfD, but keep models legal) such that they have a place in the game, but you'd never see them in the tournaments.

I'd rather the options become bad then get removed.

I'd rather they just had access to the full range of eldar powers (harlequins, eldar seers, eldar warlocks) and could be taken with the keyword of the detachment they're in. Then, you drop their unique ynnari powers.

For example, Alaitoc Yncarne, means that the detachment is still alaitoc, and the Yncarne retains YNNARI and gains ALAITOC.

You could squat the ynnari powers altogether. Soulburst only affects YNNARI units, but since only these models have that keyword, it's not that bad.

Example:

Yncarne
Farseer
Rangers
Rangers
Rangers

only the Yncarne has the Ynnari keyword. So, it can still soulburst, but only it can do this. Not anything else in the detachment. And, the rest of the detachment maintains alaitoc and its benefits.

I'll fix ynnari insantly better than you did in approximately 1 minute.

dark reapers max squad size 5x
Shinning spears points increase to 40 per.
Doom cast range reduced to 18"
Quickening cast range 12"

All ynnari units lose their craftword keywords


There - did it. WOW THAT WAS EASY.

Then if an when they get a codex they can get their own stratagems - non of which increase their ability to move or fight again.

The issue is clearly spears and reapers being exploited. You don't see people dominating with the yncarne and gardian swarms and wraithgaurd. In fact no one would even consider running ynnari over craftworlds if not for these 2 units.

Yeah, easy, all you have to do is delete Eldar from the game.

Have you ever faced Chaos Superfriends? It smashes Imperium way harder than Ynnari anything. Where's the outrage?

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, easy, all you have to do is delete Eldar from the game.

Have you ever faced Chaos Superfriends? It smashes Imperium way harder than Ynnari anything. Where's the outrage?

The eldar army is more than spears and reapers - plus spears will still exist with these changes - they just need to pay accordingly for their abilities. Have counters for their double moves (at least you will be able to counter doom and quicken with shorter cast ranges) 10 heavies in 1 squad is too much when a unit can shoot twice or intercept tablewide- this is a clear fix for both craftworlds and ynnari.

Furthermore I've seen a lot of eldar armies placing highly at tournaments without use of ether of these units. Seriously - have you ever seen fire prisms? Crimson hunters? Wave serpents? These are all top teir units. Keep in mind I play Eldar so I am not just trashing an army I don't like. I want a balanced game.

As far as chaos goes - Mortiarian has been OP for too long - time to nerf. Nerf their OP DG tanks too. Yeah I have faced it. It freaking blows - I hate being forced to kite all game.

I'd also like to see IK max invo save at 4++.

I bet you none of those things happen though. Because it would just make too much sense.

So now Ynnari Dire Avengers and Wraithguard can't ride in any Transports?

Now Autarchs don't give Reroll 1s?

Perhaps a fix needs at least a little more finesse.

Bharring wrote:
So now Ynnari Dire Avengers and Wraithguard can't ride in any Transports?

Now Autarchs don't give Reroll 1s?

Perhaps a fix needs at least a little more finesse.

You know I hadn't considered those two specific interactions. The best way to handle it would be to make a ynnari autarch datasheet and all ynnari transports gain ynnari keyword stating they can transport only ynnari infantry. These are simple fixes. Obviously a ynnari infantry should be able to ride in a ynnari serpent and ynnari autarch should actually function.

But should a Ynnari Harlequinn be able to ride in a Ynnari Wave Serpent?

That doesn't sound too bad, until you wonder if a Ynnari Fire Dragon should be able to ride in a Ynnari Venom...

My point is there are many edge cases that also need to be glossed over. Reapers being capped at 10 would be good. Spears going up to ~35ppm would be good. Runes of Battle dropping to 12" range would be good. But it's not quite as simple as suggested.

Ynnari as a whole need to be removed as a Faction, but allow the 3 Characters to be added to any Aeldari detachment without affected that detachment's Keywords/Abilities.

Change Soulburst/SfD into an Aura ability that each Ynnari Character has if it is the Warlord
Done.

-

So tell me how you feel about Adepta Sororitas.

Same-ish mechanic, yet the rage isn't there.

So I don't think it is the rule that is the issue, it is the interaction.

Honestly, what is Ynnari outside of a Reaper puddle and Shining Spear swarms? I think an entire faction is receiving a lot of anger over a couple of really strong combinations.

Maybe we should ask why Dark Reapers have a 3 damage gun instead of d3. That's what really gives them a lot of their punching power, on top of the flexibility their gun already offers.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
Honestly, what is Ynnari outside of a Reaper puddle and Shining Spear swarms? I think an entire faction is receiving a lot of anger over a couple of really strong combinations.

Maybe we should ask why Dark Reapers have a 3 damage gun instead of d3. That's what really gives them a lot of their punching power, on top of the flexibility their gun already offers.

Completely agree.

Bharring wrote:
But should a Ynnari Harlequinn be able to ride in a Ynnari Wave Serpent?

That doesn't sound too bad, until you wonder if a Ynnari Fire Dragon should be able to ride in a Ynnari Venom...

My point is there are many edge cases that also need to be glossed over. Reapers being capped at 10 would be good. Spears going up to ~35ppm would be good. Runes of Battle dropping to 12" range would be good. But it's not quite as simple as suggested.

Not in a AM infantry cant ride in a taurox.

Purifying Tempest wrote:
So tell me how you feel about Adepta Sororitas.

Same-ish mechanic, yet the rage isn't there.

So I don't think it is the rule that is the issue, it is the interaction.

Honestly, what is Ynnari outside of a Reaper puddle and Shining Spear swarms? I think an entire faction is receiving a lot of anger over a couple of really strong combinations.

Maybe we should ask why Dark Reapers have a 3 damage gun instead of d3. That's what really gives them a lot of their punching power, on top of the flexibility their gun already offers.

Well, i play lots of SOB as well as Ynnari and they are leaps and bounds different for 2 main reasons.

1) AoF are only at the start of the turn. They dont happen later in game turn where it could be devastating.
a) You have to use AoF before you move, before Powers buff, and before you weaken other units
b) Its more limiting without large investment of points, Ynnari oly needs to be within 7" where AoF gets 1 then you need 200pts/40pts to gain a 2nd or 3rd, and even if you can do 3 a turn (equal to Ynnari normally) they are less effective

2) They dont have CWE/DE/Quins/SOUP to support it, it only effects SoB uits and has 0 powers that really effect them.
a) With very little imperial support to use like Aeldari Soup, you dont get to pick the best units for the job. Example, SKyweavers, Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, Guardians, Swooping Hawks, etc.. etc..
b) Imperial powers are no where near as good and dont support SOB like CWE powers does


Over all its much weaker, yes there are a couple units its nice on (Doms, Rets, Seraphim, Celestine) but over all the effectiveness of it being at the start of the turn, on weaker units, and no additional support. Its rather weak in comparrision.

With that said, i want it to change. I'd rather it but a large buff to the unit(s) kinda like Orders and each character lets it happen with 3+ roll (Celestine/Imagifers work automatic) but unlike Orders make it more SoB friendly.
Examples:
1: Re-roll the Dice when determining hits for any D6 roll (example, the number of hits on Flamers)
2: Give a unit +2 melee attack characteristic for the turn
3: Give a unit +6" movement
4: A unit can fallback and still Shoot


I was practicing for a GT last year and i was taking SoB with Custodes (Horde sisters with 3 Shield Caps on Daweagles)

I kept track of AOF, and over 4 turns i was able to do about 10 on average (4 turns,1 AoF army, 1 Celestine for 2-3 turns, 2 Imagifiers), and the impact of those was mostly to get itno better positions and for sure didnt make them better, but playable. Without those AoF idk if i could even have a chance at the time.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I'll fix ynnari insantly better than you did in approximately 1 minute.

dark reapers max squad size 5x
Shinning spears points increase to 40 per.
Doom cast range reduced to 18"
Quickening cast range 12"

All ynnari units lose their craftword keywords


There - did it. WOW THAT WAS EASY.

Then if an when they get a codex they can get their own stratagems - non of which increase their ability to move or fight again.

The issue is clearly spears and reapers being exploited. You don't see people dominating with the yncarne and gardian swarms and wraithgaurd. In fact no one would even consider running ynnari over craftworlds if not for these 2 units.

Ynnari are in this weird place where soul bursting combos really well with a couple specific units but is way less useful for most other units. Like, when I want to play a casual game, sometimes I just play Ynnari without reapers or spears because you give up so much stuff for soul bursting which doesn't scale well at higher points. One of the things I like about the OP's proposal (and my own) is that it makes sub-optimal ynnari more viable and allows them to scale a bit better. Units that don't take advantage of soul bursts as well as others (like most troops for instance) can serve as batteries for tokens to fuel soul bursts on other units.

So to me, changing ynnari should be about more than just nerfing them into the ground.

Lowering reaper squads down to 5 max seems reasonable to me. Reapers benefit from asuryani buffs more than most units, so capping the synergy there is probably a good move. Upping the cost of spears is probably a good idea too, but 40 points seems a bit much. Spears usually die at a reasonable clip when they aren't zipping away from combat using soul bursts. They're durable, fast, hard-hitting, and get a lot of oomph out of their buffs, but they're still basically just two marines in a trench coat when you start throwing small arms fire at them. The issue here is specifically the synergy between spears and soul bursting. Punishing non-ynnari spears for the sins of optimized lists isn't ideal.

Lowering the range on Doom feels like the wrong solution to the right problem. I'm not sure what I'd do differently (other than just making proper ynnari unit entries including farseers that don't have access to Runes of Fate), but the mobility of a farseer on bike means that they'll still be able to plop it wherever they need to. Except maybe against the castellan hiding in the back row, but I'm quite fine with being able to doom those things. If the issue with Doom is specifically that it synergizes too well with specific units or that it synergizes with non-asuryani, I feel like those are the issues that should be tackled.

Lowering the range on Quick is... probably fine. I still have flashbacks to being frustrated by Index Runes of Battle that frequently stopped working as my warlock failed a charge and fell out of range or flubbed an advance roll or what have you. 12" is probably sufficient, but I could see something like banshees or hawks quickly outpacing their warlock and having to decide whether or not to give up movement for a slightly better than 50% chance at getting even more movement. 18" is nice for movement powers because you don't have to fidget quite as much with model placement.

Someone rename the topic: Led`s nerfs Ynnari and Craftwords to the ground.

Doom is only a problem for deathstars and superheavies. Any list without either doesn't have much to fear from Doom.

And I have less sympathy than I should for things that screw over those types of "this unit is my list" things.

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah, easy, all you have to do is delete Eldar from the game.

Have you ever faced Chaos Superfriends? It smashes Imperium way harder than Ynnari anything. Where's the outrage?

No one plays chaos. And chaos wasn't good for 30+ years.

Doom is only a problem for deathstars and superheavies. Any list without either doesn't have much to fear from Doom.

Ever tried to play an elite meq army vs eldar this edition?

And this is where soup becomes an issue. Ynnari are a terribly written little piece of fan-fiction...and have no purpose or place in the game right now. However, because of poorly written rules people want to hammer the basic Craftworld units that benefit from them. As a mono-codex Eldar player it's a bit on the frustrating side.

"And chaos wasn't good for 30+ years."
Umm... Demon Summoning?
2++ Rerollables?
Invis?

7e Demons had some of the strongest builds at a couple different points. That was not 30+ years ago.

"Ever tried to play an elite meq army vs eldar this edition?"
Yes. But then, MEQs usually play MSU - which Doom does very little against. A 30-man Boyz squad is far more hosed by Doom than most Marine squads.

Just ditch it, it's one of those ideas that shows the gulf between how GW thinks the game is played and how its actually played

Racerguy180 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
CP generation for Soulburst is interesting and easier to balance than the current rules. My preference would be the easiest solution: get rid of them altogether. It's weird to me that a faction that's existed for all of 3 years, only has 3 models unique to it and has caused so many balance problems from the moment it was created isn't simply allowed to die (and not Soulburst back into life). Seriously, would anyone really be put out if Ynnari ceased to be? It's not like all your models would become obsolete.

well considering that the only reason I have any pointy ears is Ynarri, that might not necessarily work. I'm not really interested in playing them(harli/cwe/drukhari) otherwise so.....

They could just make it a narrative option and "ban" it in tourney.

Or they could just fix them and differentiate them further from "normal".

Obviously that sucks for you, but I don't think the small percentage of gamers who only care about Ynarri rather than Eldar more generally should determine the best course of action for balancing the game. I just think Ynarri was a terrible idea in the first place - the fluff is like the worst type of fan-fiction and the faction has never been balanced in actual play, because the central gimmick of the army is fundamentally broken. What's really annoying is that GW had a glimpse of how broken it would be when they did a similar combined army of the Elven factions in the End Times for Warhammer. It broke the game in ways never before seen, but since the game was coming to an end it wasn't that big of a deal. The same could have been true of Ynarri - they could have just removed them in 8th with options to take the 3 characters in a regular Eldar army. Instead we have to deal with the balance problems the faction introduces, further compounded by being part of a larger faction that has some balance issues of its own, making it very difficult to balance all of it properly.