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Onething123456 wrote:


Everything is 40k has unreliable narration.

Yes. Which is why when you spam the same things verbatim as if they were absolutes, it is both super-annoying and incorrect.

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Everything is 40k has unreliable narration.

Yes. Which is why when you spam the same things verbatim as if they were absolutes, it is both super-annoying and incorrect.

You were confirming what I thought. You said the Age of Strife betrayal was from unreliable narration in general, not the Imperium. And that is true, because everything in 40k is so.

Would anyone like some toast?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Would anyone like some toast?

I'm not hungry currently, but later. (if that was a joke, then alright)

How about now?

 Azreal13 wrote:
How about now?

Yes, yes, yes!

Onething123456 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
How about now?

Yes, yes, yes!

Onething is Cleverbot confirmed. (Also not sure if hes still unaware that dakka isn't a chatroom).

 Grimskul wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
How about now?

Yes, yes, yes!

Onething is Cleverbot confirmed. (Also not sure if hes still unaware that dakka isn't a chatroom).

I joked.

Spetulhu wrote:
So the xenos might still have been bitter at having to obey their benevolent and ever so slightly more equal overlords. At the risk of sounding like real-world politics, maybe it was a bit like being a minor country in the sphere of influence of the USA or USSR during the Cold War? They gave you stuff in exchange for your resources, they sometimes asked about your concerns, but also demanded you do this or that for them. You could clearly see that they didn't consider your problems as important as their own. DAoT humanity might have seen itself as bringing (their own brand of) civlization to the dark corners of the galaxy, thoughtlessly stomping on the toes of various xenos who didn't dare protest out of fear.

I think that it is exactly what it was like. But is that worth being paid back in campaigns of slavery and genocide?

From the human POV we trusted aliens and got burned. We aren't going to make that mistake again.

All the arguments for purging aliens don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Simply swap the word alien for Jew or black people or native Americans or Slav or Cossack etc. It’s basically bigotry and the xenophobia is just that. Justifiable by those committing the atrocities it their twisted world (universe) view. We have had this many times and I have seen onething try to justify genocide and mass murder and I am yet to be convinced.

Andykp wrote:
All the arguments for purging aliens don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Simply swap the word alien for Jew or black people or native Americans or Slav or Cossack etc. It’s basically bigotry and the xenophobia is just that. Justifiable by those committing the atrocities it their twisted world (universe) view. We have had this many times and I have seen onething try to justify genocide and mass murder and I am yet to be convinced.

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

 Crimson wrote:

Andykp wrote:
All the arguments for purging aliens don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Simply swap the word alien for Jew or black people or native Americans or Slav or Cossack etc. It’s basically bigotry and the xenophobia is just that. Justifiable by those committing the atrocities it their twisted world (universe) view. We have had this many times and I have seen onething try to justify genocide and mass murder and I am yet to be convinced.

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

The Imperium has good, legitimate reasons to hate aliens. Many aliens betrayed humanity in the Age of Strife, and ones that were hostile before the Age of Strife happened just swooped in and enslaved and slaughtered humans.

The Forgeworld books show there were alien slavers in our solar system around Saturn and Jupiter.

And the Nephilim were a minor race.

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium has good, legitimate reasons to hate aliens. Many aliens betrayed humanity in the Age of Strife, and ones that were hostile before the Age of Strife happened just swooped in and enslaved and slaughtered humans.

The Forgeworld books show there were alien slavers in our solar system around Saturn and Jupiter.

And the Nephilim were a minor race.

'Some foreigners did some bad things so it is OK to kill all foreigners.' That's bloody insane. And evil. Insanely evil, in fact.

 Crimson wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


The Imperium has good, legitimate reasons to hate aliens. Many aliens betrayed humanity in the Age of Strife, and ones that were hostile before the Age of Strife happened just swooped in and enslaved and slaughtered humans.

The Forgeworld books show there were alien slavers in our solar system around Saturn and Jupiter.

And the Nephilim were a minor race.

'Some foreigners did some bad things so it is OK to kill all foreigners.' That's bloody insane. And evil. Insanely evil, in fact.

"Some" does not cut it. So many ( and NOT SOME) aliens betrayed humanity in the Age of Strife. Many, if not most. Not some.

Do the Amazons have reason to hate men because Heracles and his crew raped them when their backs were turned? Same thing. And the Amazons were hunted before that by other men.

And the Emperor is clearly a human supremacist who thinks humans are better than other species. Sort of like baddies such as Hitler believed their race should rule.

I don't think there's any evidence that the Emperor is a supremacist in the sense that he thinks humanity is superior, he is motivated by the survival and protection of humanity. In his estimation, humanity could only survive through supremacy, and thus it's more of a means to an end than the motivation itself. The Emperor was ultimately a colossal screw up who made some really dumb mistakes and failed in his mission, but with threats like Chaos, Nids, Orks, Necrons etc. it's not hard to imagine that he was ultimately right that humanity would be doomed unless it were the united, dominant force in the galaxy. The way I see it is that the biggest joke in the setting is, in spite of the Imperium being a backwards, ignorant, bigoted and tyrannical state, they're ultimately right about the threats to humanity, but at the same time powerless to do anything about it thanks to those aforementioned deficiencies in their culture and society.

That 'most' aliens 'betrayed' humanity is human propaganda. And even if it was true, hating all aliens is insane. 'Aliens' is not some monolithic group with shared behaviour. Tau are not guilty of the things the Eldar did etc.

 Crimson wrote:

Andykp wrote:
All the arguments for purging aliens don’t stand up to any scrutiny. Simply swap the word alien for Jew or black people or native Americans or Slav or Cossack etc. It’s basically bigotry and the xenophobia is just that. Justifiable by those committing the atrocities it their twisted world (universe) view. We have had this many times and I have seen onething try to justify genocide and mass murder and I am yet to be convinced.

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

There's no such thing as evil, only different perspectives.

But from what perspective is it ok to judge an entire group of people and kill them because the actions of a few of them. I know it’s real world and fantasy comparisons here but like I say. Replace the word alien in the phrase “suffer not the alien to live” with the word Jew. All of a sudden it isn’t that ok is it. And the nazis believed, as the imperials do in 40k that the hated class has done much to them and presents a real danger.

Genocide isn’t ever justifiable. Regardless of evil or good. The imperium commits genocide on a regular basis and has it as one of its fundamental tenets. It always has. That alone, regardless of slavers on Jupiter makes the imperium an horrific regime.

The British (which I am) took slaves form west Africa and commit atrocities galore in the region. We were the alien slavers on Jupiter to the people of west Africa. But the people of west Africa, generati9ns on don’t despise the British generations on. If we were to superimpose imperium behaviour on to that real world situation then any British person going near west Africa would be killed instantly. Step foot in Ghana and you would be executed on site. And if they could they would come over and kill every British person they could find. And then go out and try to kill anyone else who was not west African “just in case”. And then even go and kill any west Africans who have been living peacefully with Non west Africans too.

 Crimson wrote:
That 'most' aliens 'betrayed' humanity is human propaganda. And even if it was true, hating all aliens is insane. 'Aliens' is not some monolithic group with shared behaviour. Tau are not guilty of the things the Eldar did etc.

Even the Eldar share common goals with those parts of humanity who best know what's actually going on, and at the current point in the setting you could make a good case that the only hope for either Eldar or humanity to survive is through their cooperation. But that is solely because the Eldar are aware of the stakes.

Take a relatively innocent race like the Tau, for example. They are a minor and naive race who barely have the faintest notion of the threats that face them in the universe. They may have good intentions, but their worldview isn't necessarily any less restrictive and hidebound than that of the Imperium. They just have totally different values and methods, which leave them totally unprepared to effectively face some of the greater powers in the galaxy. Assume that the Imperium of Man never came to be, and humanity joined the Tau and formed one big happy galactic communist federation - then throw in Chaos and nids. How long would they survive based on good will and the greater good?

The tragedy/comedy of the setting is that each of the races have a different piece of the puzzle and they each have values and methods which are at once the only reason for their survival thus far, AND the reasons they are ultimately doomed. It's a catch 22 all around. There can be no doubt that if humanity was unconcerned about genetic purity and heresy, they would have fallen to Chaos already. There can also be no doubt that because of their extremely rigid and dogmatic approach, rife with theocratic bureaucracy and corruption, they are mortally vulnerable to stagnation and entropy and most likely WILL fall to chaos in the end. The Emperor wanted to usher in a golden age of unity and reason without gods or superstitions, but now he IS a god and the superstitious worship of him is the only thing keeping the Imperium together. It's all over the top irony without any practical solutions, but they don't call it grimdark for nothing.

 Crimson wrote:
That 'most' aliens 'betrayed' humanity is human propaganda. And even if it was true, hating all aliens is insane. 'Aliens' is not some monolithic group with shared behaviour. Tau are not guilty of the things the Eldar did etc.

Prove that. How do you know?

I think you are full of it. Voss said that before, and he did not prove it, he even went to saying something different.

How is it? It was around during the Crusade.

You can't prove that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
People like Crimson say things like it is from human perspective, and they don't even try to prove it.

And Crimson, before that, when I said many aliens betrayed humanity in the Age of Strife, you did not really contradict me. Now you are.

 Luciferian wrote:
Take a relatively innocent race like the Tau, for example. They are a minor and naive race who barely have the faintest notion of the threats that face them in the universe. They may have good intentions, but their worldview isn't necessarily any less restrictive and hidebound than that of the Imperium. They just have totally different values and methods, which leave them totally unprepared to effectively face some of the greater powers in the galaxy. Assume that the Imperium of Man never came to be, and humanity joined the Tau and formed one big happy galactic communist federation - then throw in Chaos and nids. How long would they survive based on good will and the greater good?

Considering that the Tau have successfully pushed back a Tyranid Hive Fleet and an Imperial Crusade pretty much simultaniously. Have fought out against several major Ork Waaagh! in their history and did fought against the forces of Chaos on occasion, my best bet is that they would have been fine. Chaos is vulnerable to order and selflessness. The Imperial Creed requires from all obediance and self-sacrifice. In that it's anathema to Chaos. The Greater Good doctrine requires from all obediance and self-sacrifice to the whole community. In that, it's also anathema to Chaos, it's simply an atheist way to oppose Chaos.

So Crimson, the Horus Heresy books and Forgeworld (the Forgeworld books, not just the Horus Heresy books) books make it clear that the vast majority of aliens encountered were hostile, with very few exceptions (factions like the Interex were the exception, not the norm).


I would love to see you prove what you say, but you probably cannot in anyway.


And so damn what if hating all aliens is dumb? This is Warhammer 40k. Not Star Trek. Crimson, you would do well to remember this is Warhammer and not Star Trek where most humans and aliens just live happy with each other.

Good lord- he's going into a meltdown. Someone reboot him.

Onething, you're so confused about basically everything. Most of the 40K fluff is from someone's point of view; of course Imperials who constantly commit xenocide try justifying their stance by saying the aliens were hostile. Also, I have no problem with Imperium being horrible, that's kinda the point. What I have problem with is people trying to justify that horribleness, trying to make it seem somehow moral.

 Grimtuff wrote:
Good lord- he's going into a meltdown. Someone reboot him.

No. I am not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Onething, you're so confused about basically everything. Most of the 40K fluff is from someone's point of view; of course Imperials who constantly commit xenocide try justifying their stance by saying the aliens were hostile. Also, I have no problem with Imperium being horrible, that's kinda the point. What I have problem with is people trying to justify that horribleness, trying to make it seem somehow moral.

The blurbs about aliens betraying humanity do not undeniably come from human perspective, but it might be. And it might be something Chaos spewed, lying, in the lore.

 Crimson wrote:

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

Now now, this is a game, and one that requires significant life investment. You can't infer someone's dangerous or misguided simply for getting into character and reiterating what the fluff states.

The protagonists, whether good or bad, is the Imperium in this story.

I'd only like to add this: Where do we draw the line between good, normal xenos like Tau and Eldar and bad races such as Orks? Orks have whole books in their perspective, which to me tells me that despite their non-compatibility they are in-fact intelligent, sapient creatures. Yet you cannot live in peace with Orks; it's inferred that they would literally suffer and die from that alone.

Onething. I’ve said it before on this topic and I’ll say it again. U are wrong. And by being sooooo wrong you are missing the point. Crimson and I see the back ground in a very similar way and agree on many things. We can both see and admit how horrible and evil and vile the imperium. Would I like to see it changed. No. Because part of the point of the background is that the imperium is horrible. If they were well meaning and nice THAT would be like Star Trek. Instead we have a system of totalitarian genocidal madness that is utterly intolerant and sacrifices billions endlessly for sake of maintain its total control. And it makes for fantastic fiction and war games.

By denying the imperiums massive flaws and the emperors you are missing the point of it all. U are missing out on just how dark and horrible the galaxy is. How there is no light side and bastion of hope. There is only war. (Bad in real life, very good in fantasy and sci-fi table too games.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lazzamore wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

Now now, this is a game, and one that requires significant life investment. You can't infer someone's dangerous or misguided simply for getting into character and reiterating what the fluff states.

The protagonists, whether good or bad, is the Imperium in this story.

I'd only like to add this: Where do we draw the line between good, normal xenos like Tau and Eldar and bad races such as Orks? Orks have whole books in their perspective, which to me tells me that despite their non-compatibility they are in-fact intelligent, sapient creatures. Yet you cannot live in peace with Orks; it's inferred that they would literally suffer and die from that alone.

ORKS aren’t “bad” as such. They are just a weapon of mass destruction run amok. They have much less of an agenda than all the other races. Humans are much more “bad” than ORKS. Humans aren’t the goodies in 40k. Their are no goodies in 40k. Read any book on eldar and they are sadistic evil gits. Dark eldar represent what an eldar is when he lets himself go fully. Not nice.

In AoS they have it right where you have forces of order, but that doesn’t make them good. The deepkin are horrible and grim but are forces of order. Blurred lines is the way to go.

I know this, and not trying to say the imperium are the good guys, just that the writers intended for even the war and genocide parts (terrible things in life they may be) are also 'blurred'. So I guess what i'm saying is, there are no endings were Orks stop fighting, and will destroy everyone else if not stopped. They can't be controlled by any means the characters in our story have, leaving only exterminatus as a solution I can think of right now.

However, they are still sapient, free thinking people. Just throwing what I think is a curve-ball, really

Andykp wrote:
Onething. I’ve said it before on this topic and I’ll say it again. U are wrong. And by being sooooo wrong you are missing the point. Crimson and I see the back ground in a very similar way and agree on many things. We can both see and admit how horrible and evil and vile the imperium. Would I like to see it changed. No. Because part of the point of the background is that the imperium is horrible. If they were well meaning and nice THAT would be like Star Trek. Instead we have a system of totalitarian genocidal madness that is utterly intolerant and sacrifices billions endlessly for sake of maintain its total control. And it makes for fantastic fiction and war games.

By denying the imperiums massive flaws and the emperors you are missing the point of it all. U are missing out on just how dark and horrible the galaxy is. How there is no light side and bastion of hope. There is only war. (Bad in real life, very good in fantasy and sci-fi table too games.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lazzamore wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Yeah, I really worry about the people who don't get that the Imperium (and even its predecessors) in 40K is evil.

Now now, this is a game, and one that requires significant life investment. You can't infer someone's dangerous or misguided simply for getting into character and reiterating what the fluff states.

The protagonists, whether good or bad, is the Imperium in this story.

I'd only like to add this: Where do we draw the line between good, normal xenos like Tau and Eldar and bad races such as Orks? Orks have whole books in their perspective, which to me tells me that despite their non-compatibility they are in-fact intelligent, sapient creatures. Yet you cannot live in peace with Orks; it's inferred that they would literally suffer and die from that alone.

ORKS aren’t “bad” as such. They are just a weapon of mass destruction run amok. They have much less of an agenda than all the other races. Humans are much more “bad” than ORKS. Humans aren’t the goodies in 40k. Their are no goodies in 40k. Read any book on eldar and they are sadistic evil gits. Dark eldar represent what an eldar is when he lets himself go fully. Not nice.

In AoS they have it right where you have forces of order, but that doesn’t make them good. The deepkin are horrible and grim but are forces of order. Blurred lines is the way to go.

When did I say it was ok? I said I can understand the Imperium hating aliens. I don't agree with the the Imperium.

The Eldar have reason to be arrogant as they are.

Andykp wrote:
But from what perspective is it ok to judge an entire group of people and kill them because the actions of a few of them.

The perspective of the ones doing it, of course. There's a reason they say if you think you might be insane you're not. It's because insanity looks perfectly sane from inside itself.