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THe rumor is marines are going down in cost. So I expect old Termi armor version of Calgor to move down into the 150-175 range, and the new Primaris Calgar to be in the 180-200 range.

The Codex: Space Marines should just be renamed Codex: Ultramarines. Not being snarky, just set the expectation properly. Make the special characters from the other chapters provide a buff if they're included in the detachment with ultramarine models. Give everyone access to the stratagems that were previously chapter specific.

 Marmatag wrote:
The Codex: Space Marines should just be renamed Codex: Ultramarines. Not being snarky, just set the expectation properly. Make the special characters from the other chapters provide a buff if they're included in the detachment with ultramarine models. Give everyone access to the stratagems that were previously chapter specific.

It used to be. First codex I ever owned was Ultramarines.

Do they expect anyone to feel even vaguely threatened by the Chaos Lord?

Especially compared to Calgar.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Do they expect anyone to feel even vaguely threatened by the Chaos Lord?

Especially compared to Calgar.

Calgar would grunt punt the worldtaker both in a one on-one-fight and as a leader. Raptors aren't great (most jump infantry lag behind) to build a list around, his ability to hunt down characters is limited by the Fly nerf, and his weapon is nothing to write home about. His ld reducing ability can be useful, but only when stacking in a night lord list.

He feels so much like a generic raptor lord that I'm kinda curious why he isn't one.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
Calgar would grunt punt the worldtaker both in a one on-one-fight and as a leader. Raptors aren't great (most jump infantry lag behind) to build a list around, his ability to hunt down characters is limited by the Fly nerf, and his weapon is nothing to write home about. His ld reducing ability can be useful, but only when stacking in a night lord list.

He feels so much like a generic raptor lord that I'm kinda curious why he isn't one.

Or even more, why he isn't a Night Lord himself, which might have made him at least useful in some kind of fluffy non-competitive Night Lords garbage list.

Why does the chaos guy bump up Raptor but not Warp talon as well? Aren't they basically the same thing just with specialist weapons?

For Calgar, it'll be interesting to see what lists he shows up in. With or without Guillermo?

 chimeara wrote:
Why does the chaos guy bump up Raptor but not Warp talon as well? Aren't they basically the same thing just with specialist weapons?

They're Daemons, but the point still stands, of course, it would be nice to get a proper Daemon Prince special character that's not completely useless and overpriced (*cough* Bel'akor).

I don't know why, but now I can't "unpicture" a Powerfist Sgt, Calgar and Guilliman as a Pokémon evolution

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 Galef wrote:
I don't know why, but now I can't "unpicture" a Powerfist Sgt, Calgar and Guilliman as a Pokémon evolution

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You are the winner. I just imagine it with some kind of corus music.

 chimeara wrote:
Why does the chaos guy bump up Raptor but not Warp talon as well? Aren't they basically the same thing just with specialist weapons?

For Calgar, it'll be interesting to see what lists he shows up in. With or without Guillermo?

Tiggy Calgar Guillermo and a Relic Contemptor sounds like an interesting spin on trying to build a punchy marine list, I still don't see it being hyper competitive but my ultramrine dreadnaught army has given me some fun games from a bad codex with prime roidrage Calgar backing up Big Baby Emps it could be funny.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Do they expect anyone to feel even vaguely threatened by the Chaos Lord?

Especially compared to Calgar.

Calgar would grunt punt the worldtaker both in a one on-one-fight and as a leader. Raptors aren't great (most jump infantry lag behind) to build a list around, his ability to hunt down characters is limited by the Fly nerf, and his weapon is nothing to write home about. His ld reducing ability can be useful, but only when stacking in a night lord list.

He feels so much like a generic raptor lord that I'm kinda curious why he isn't one.

He's actually worse. A generic Alpha Legion Raptor Lord can run around with the black mace or the blade of the hydra and be a lot more killy than Haarken while also buffing Warp Talons 1+ to hit. Which to me is what feels really silly about Haarken; he only buffs Chaos Raptors which are awful at melee. And as a Black Legionanire they don't have -1 to hit, so most of those raptors should be dead before they even reach their target. In this regard Calgar clearly demonstrates superiority by simply being better than a generic character. Only thing I think could beat him in a melee is Slamguinius using stratagems to fight twice too.

 Wyzilla wrote:

He's actually worse. A generic Alpha Legion Raptor Lord can run around with the black mace or the blade of the hydra and be a lot more killy than Haarken while also buffing Warp Talons 1+ to hit. Which to me is what feels really silly about Haarken; he only buffs Chaos Raptors which are awful at melee. And as a Black Legionanire they don't have -1 to hit, so most of those raptors should be dead before they even reach their target. In this regard Calgar clearly demonstrates superiority by simply being better than a generic character. Only thing I think could beat him in a melee is Slamguinius using stratagems to fight twice too.

True, if he only buffs Raptors and doesn't also provide the basic Chaos Lord functionality of re-roll 1s that would bump him down from trash to irredeemable trash.

However, to be fair, if the rumors hold, Alpha Legion won't have -1 to hit anymore anyways, so the Legion debate has grown a bit more interesting at least. Now you can at least make an argument for WE Warp Talons and Raptors, assuming you're dead set on fielding trash.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

He's actually worse. A generic Alpha Legion Raptor Lord can run around with the black mace or the blade of the hydra and be a lot more killy than Haarken while also buffing Warp Talons 1+ to hit. Which to me is what feels really silly about Haarken; he only buffs Chaos Raptors which are awful at melee. And as a Black Legionanire they don't have -1 to hit, so most of those raptors should be dead before they even reach their target. In this regard Calgar clearly demonstrates superiority by simply being better than a generic character. Only thing I think could beat him in a melee is Slamguinius using stratagems to fight twice too.

True, if he only buffs Raptors and doesn't also provide the basic Chaos Lord functionality of re-roll 1s that would bump him down from trash to irredeemable trash.

However, to be fair, if the rumors hold, Alpha Legion won't have -1 to hit anymore anyways, so the Legion debate has grown a bit more interesting at least. Now you can at least make an argument for WE Warp Talons and Raptors, assuming you're dead set on fielding trash.

I forget, can Thousand Sons field warp talons or not?

No they cannot.

At least Haarken's buff applies to all raptors, regardless of legion so that's something. Also they don't mention how much his leadership aura reduces by, if it's -2 then it could be worth it. Maybe.

I realise this guy is a nobody compared to calgar, but it's the first time chaos has gotten a new character in a while (that I can remember at least) so I was hoping for something a little...more.

This is just a quality of life buff. He's more of a beffy fighter now but at 220 points...Holy crap. That is really getting up there now.

Primortus wrote:
I realise this guy is a nobody compared to calgar, but it's the first time chaos has gotten a new character in a while (that I can remember at least) so I was hoping for something a little...more.

You're not alone. In the past two months Chaos has gotten two new special characters, the first to appear in what, 20 years?

You couldn't pay me to field either one of them.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Does Gravis armour have a movement penalty?

Ayup. 5" base (excluding Inceptors).

Inceptors have a 10" move, which would be consistent with being jump-pack Gravis armor.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

You're not alone. In the past two months Chaos has gotten two new special characters, the first to appear in what, 20 years?

You couldn't pay me to field either one of them.

Dose that count the Blackstone Fortress Character?

I do feel like, for consistency, he should be 5" movement. Otherwise he seems solid assuming Marines get the appropriate fixes in Chapter Approved.

Primortus wrote:
That's an impressive profile when you combine it with his re-roll aura and all the command points he gives you. Couple that with the rumoured significant point drop in CA and I definitely think he'll find a place in any UM army. If only the new chaos hero was even half as good.

He's only there to take a whooping until Vigilus 2: Abaddon's Revenge. Followed soon after by Vigilus 3: Return of...

 Galef wrote:

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I know their power levels are drastically different, but the chaos lord seems woefully underpowered compared to the latest primaris lieutenant.

It seems like it might have made more sense to have a chaos character who could reasonably have challenged calgar to be his new nemesis.

That's clearly intentional. Calgar needs a foe he can smack down with ease as a warm-up for a later big-bad. Likely Abby, Fulgrim or Angron. And Guilliman will make an appearance after that.
Character escalation is the name of the game.

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Would be a neat time for Angron to show up, and then be countered by Russ.

How confirmed in the 220? I saw someone say 220 based off the old 20xPL formula.

Is it confirmed anywhere?

No, but the point to power level conversion is pretty spot on - particularly for models with fixed weapons. If he had options for different weapons then his starting cost would be less. However, with fixed equipment, it's damn likley he's between 210-220 points.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Primortus wrote:
That's an impressive profile when you combine it with his re-roll aura and all the command points he gives you. Couple that with the rumoured significant point drop in CA and I definitely think he'll find a place in any UM army. If only the new chaos hero was even half as good.

He's only there to take a whooping until Vigilus 2: Abaddon's Revenge. Followed soon after by Vigilus 3: Return of...

Spoiler:

THE KHAN!

If any campaign is going to have "...of the Khan" in the title, it needs to be "Wrath of.." not "Return of"

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I disagree in this case.

I agree that was mostly true on how they ended up with the first run of match points, but at this point, there are nearly as many exceptions to that rule as places it works.

Most of the marine stuff is/has/is being re pointed.

I'm not prepared to say he won't be 220, but I sure wouldn't even venture a point cost at this time. I'll just wait till CA is out to build a more accurate picture.