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Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 grouchoben wrote:
Lastalons will hopefully drop too, otherwise they become dumb. That puts it at 45pts drop.

Well lastalon drop too would be nice. But they you need to drop the Avenger too. No reason LT should be less than that weapon.

There's no reason a Multimelta or Grav Cannon should cost more than a Lascannon and only a lunatic would think the Meltagun and Gravgun should cost more than a Plasma Gun, and yet here we are.

Yes, and that's kind of the point, and also why you don't see marines really doing anything outside of spamming characters.

 Blackie wrote:

 Stux wrote:
There's a meta issue for these vehicles too. Knights are so common that everyone takes answers for them. Anything that kills a Knight kills a Land Raider faster. If you don't ALSO have a Knight, you're just presenting a value target for any list prepared for Knights.

What if knights get a huge nerf with CA and orks hordes become the new scary things to counter?

The rumors I've heard say IK aren't getting any significant nerfs at all. Just what I hear at my LGS though, so massive grain of salt there.

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

With a 3+ and no invuln save for the amount of points...drop 50 or 70 points and still far from being broken. Still would think if use it or not.

For Dakkanaught netlisters who only play the Primo Best Units™ they won't be good until someone else wins with them consistently.

I still see Repulsors everywhere doing a lot of great work on every table I see them on. Turns out just bringing tools to kill a Knight doesn't help when you're facing 2 mobile Repulsors alongside a bunch of Dreads.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Yeah then space wolf land raiders will get +1 to hit rolls on the charge. How amazing.

Shadowswords and Castellans will still eat your lunch. Land raiders are turned off by assault.

Sorry, until these things change, they're just a point sink.

If land raiders could fire their guns while locked in melee that'd be a different story.

Yeah totally agree. Repulsors are immune to this though. How much are they dropping? 40 points?

If Repulsors get a moderate points drop, they'll surely get used. That's a ton of dakka, they don't get tied up in melee, and are harder to even charge to begin with.

If they're assembled sensibly, they even look cool.

Martel732 wrote:
Losing sucks, and terminators and land raiders have auto lose for a long time.

My salamanders landraider assault force that runs three full squads of termies out of crusaders has a 54% win ratio over 61 games since August of 2017.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

Having seen what it can do to orks I can see then being more common. Also a LR as busted as it is can't have rerolls to hit and 1's to wound.

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

Having seen what it can do to orks I can see then being more common. Also a LR as busted as it is can't have rerolls to hit and 1's to wound.

It can reroll all hits and wounds. But you can not factor that into the cost of the base model. You have to cost that based off the unit that is supplying the buff. Otherwise the unit is useless without the buff. Orks will ruin my repulsor with auto hitting AP -5 D6 damage shots. From 40 point models. You need not worry about orks. They are probably the strongest army in the game right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Losing sucks, and terminators and land raiders have auto lose for a long time.

My salamanders landraider assault force that runs three full squads of termies out of crusaders has a 54% win ratio over 61 games since August of 2017.

What are you typically playing against? That is probably one of the worst armies you could possibly make in 40k. It probably looks sweet as hell but dang dude.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

Having seen what it can do to orks I can see then being more common. Also a LR as busted as it is can't have rerolls to hit and 1's to wound.

It can reroll all hits and wounds. But you can not factor that into the cost of the base model. You have to cost that based off the unit that is supplying the buff. Otherwise the unit is useless without the buff. Orks will ruin my repulsor with auto hitting AP -5 D6 damage shots. From 40 point models. You need not worry about orks. They are probably the strongest army in the game right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Losing sucks, and terminators and land raiders have auto lose for a long time.

My salamanders landraider assault force that runs three full squads of termies out of crusaders has a 54% win ratio over 61 games since August of 2017.

What are you typically playing against? That is probably one of the worst armies you could possibly make in 40k. It probably looks sweet as hell but dang dude.

I've played against a wide variety,

Mainly Valhallan Guard (Armored Company)
Tau Suits
1K Sons
Death Guard (With Mortarion)
Primaris Ravenguard
Orks
Necrons

Lots of different things. I don't see why it's so bad of an army choice, but it would look a lot better on the table if I had it all painted.

People need to understand that anything can win games in the right scenario. Anything.

A list with 3 land raiders and terminators would lose automatically to most meta lists. It's just not good. But if you're facing equally bad lists, then you'll come out on top. It's hard to predict what will happen when one horribly inefficient thing fights another horribly inefficient thing. Especially if you throw BRB missions into the mix. Half the time it'll be maelstrom, and those games are decided more by luck of the draw than anything else.

 Marmatag wrote:
People need to understand that anything can win games in the right scenario. Anything.

A list with 3 land raiders and terminators would lose automatically to most meta lists. It's just not good. But if you're facing equally bad lists, then you'll come out on top. It's hard to predict what will happen when one horribly inefficient thing fights another horribly inefficient thing. Especially if you throw BRB missions into the mix. Half the time it'll be maelstrom, and those games are decided more by luck of the draw than anything else.

No doubt. I don't play competitive at all, in fact I would say this: People also need to understand that calling something that isn't "meta" "a bad list' is highly offensive to people, such as myself who choose not to interact with the competitive WAAC scene and build lists based on fluff, what just looks cool, or what fits a specif theme. It just get's old hearing this kind of garbage over and over, as if meta play is the only way to play and anyone who dares to build lists that aren't optimized, or make use of units the larger tournament community hates due to them not being min/maxxed are somehow inferior warhammer players who shouldn't be in the hobby.

Repulsors are already pretty strong, cheaper Repulsors sounds great to me. I'll take three.

2+ armor is great againgst orks, tesla necrons, firewarrior spam, guard that don't screen their tanks, and death guard.

Not sure what happened againgst the 1ksons and ravenguard though, you must have played the missions better.

 Togusa wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

Having seen what it can do to orks I can see then being more common. Also a LR as busted as it is can't have rerolls to hit and 1's to wound.

It can reroll all hits and wounds. But you can not factor that into the cost of the base model. You have to cost that based off the unit that is supplying the buff. Otherwise the unit is useless without the buff. Orks will ruin my repulsor with auto hitting AP -5 D6 damage shots. From 40 point models. You need not worry about orks. They are probably the strongest army in the game right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Losing sucks, and terminators and land raiders have auto lose for a long time.

My salamanders landraider assault force that runs three full squads of termies out of crusaders has a 54% win ratio over 61 games since August of 2017.

What are you typically playing against? That is probably one of the worst armies you could possibly make in 40k. It probably looks sweet as hell but dang dude.

I've played against a wide variety,

Mainly Valhallan Guard (Armored Company)
Tau Suits
1K Sons
Death Guard (With Mortarion)
Primaris Ravenguard
Orks
Necrons

Lots of different things. I don't see why it's so bad of an army choice, but it would look a lot better on the table if I had it all painted.

Most it's just everything costs too much for what you get.

 Togusa wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
People need to understand that anything can win games in the right scenario. Anything.

A list with 3 land raiders and terminators would lose automatically to most meta lists. It's just not good. But if you're facing equally bad lists, then you'll come out on top. It's hard to predict what will happen when one horribly inefficient thing fights another horribly inefficient thing. Especially if you throw BRB missions into the mix. Half the time it'll be maelstrom, and those games are decided more by luck of the draw than anything else.

No doubt. I don't play competitive at all, in fact I would say this: People also need to understand that calling something that isn't "meta" "a bad list' is highly offensive to people, such as myself who choose not to interact with the competitive WAAC scene and build lists based on fluff, what just looks cool, or what fits a specif theme. It just get's old hearing this kind of garbage over and over, as if meta play is the only way to play and anyone who dares to build lists that aren't optimized, or make use of units the larger tournament community hates due to them not being min/maxxed are somehow inferior warhammer players who shouldn't be in the hobby.

This is a thread discussing the balance of units.

Being offended doesn't give you moral superiority. You posted your list and win ratio as though it was evidence in some form or another. Of course people are going to analyze it.

I played against a list with 3 Land Raiders and a squad of Termies and got smashed once.

It was 1500, and most of my list were Harlie Troopers, with 4 Fusion pistols total across my entire list. No other anti-tank. I wasn't paying attention when building that list.

Just sharing an amusing anectdote.

Lemondish wrote:
For Dakkanaught netlisters who only play the Primo Best Units™ they won't be good until someone else wins with them consistently.

I still see Repulsors everywhere doing a lot of great work on every table I see them on. Turns out just bringing tools to kill a Knight doesn't help when you're facing 2 mobile Repulsors alongside a bunch of Dreads.

Repulsors have one massive advantage over LRs though: FLY keyword means they can fall back and shoot.

All Repulsors need is a few points off and they'll be a decent unit. You can't say the same about LRs because they just get locked down too easily and even at 300pts that's not really acceptable.

I will buy a Repulsor, but first I want the SM from the Dark Imperium box.

I will refloat this thread once CA is out. We will see what happens

 Stux wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
For Dakkanaught netlisters who only play the Primo Best Units™ they won't be good until someone else wins with them consistently.

I still see Repulsors everywhere doing a lot of great work on every table I see them on. Turns out just bringing tools to kill a Knight doesn't help when you're facing 2 mobile Repulsors alongside a bunch of Dreads.

Repulsors have one massive advantage over LRs though: FLY keyword means they can fall back and shoot.

All Repulsors need is a few points off and they'll be a decent unit. You can't say the same about LRs because they just get locked down too easily and even at 300pts that's not really acceptable.

Do note that the Repulsor can also be lock down in combat easily. Just have a horde of models surround it and it is dead. Given its large size and only 10" movement, it is almost not posdible to pull it out of 1" from enemy models should they have put a second layers of models on the side of the vehicle.

Bharring wrote:
I played against a list with 3 Land Raiders and a squad of Termies and got smashed once.

It was 1500, and most of my list were Harlie Troopers, with 4 Fusion pistols total across my entire list. No other anti-tank. I wasn't paying attention when building that list.

Just sharing an amusing anectdote.

A heavy armor list beat a list that didn’t bring any anti-armor?

Color me shocked.

If your not planning to face vehicles, your planning to lose, it’s that simple; unless your meta is Ork/Tyranid model spam.

Bharring wrote:
I played against a list with 3 Land Raiders and a squad of Termies and got smashed once.

It was 1500, and most of my list were Harlie Troopers, with 4 Fusion pistols total across my entire list. No other anti-tank. I wasn't paying attention when building that list.

Just sharing an amusing anectdote.

I am shocked by it, by what you are taking. Maybe you took an not ordinary Harlequin list in my concept.

Only 4 fusion pustols. What I saw before in batrep was Harlequins always having around half of theur infantry taking fusion pistols. Where is your jetbikes? Whenever I met Harlequins on the table, they always have 10+ jetbikes all with Haywire blasters. To be honest, assault D6 each Str4 AP-1 and mortal wound vehicles makes it one of the best TAC weapon in the game.

I am shocked when seeing Land Raider and Terminator lists beats Harlequins, but then not surprised when seeing you are taking such loadout and end up losing.

ITC makes Repulsors a damn sight easier to get cover saves for. Ground floor LoS blocking means you can peak a bit of the model around walls and have it sitting in cover, and fly rule lets you bust out of there nice and easy when you need to. Prepared positions is also great for Repulsors. That 3+ really is a bit of a problem otherwise ime.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

 Tibs Ironblood wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Nah - Full dakka build is 315 points. It's currently down to 290 based on a 25 point drop. If you hold back on the onslaught cannon and mount a stubber (you mathematically should) You go down to 276. Assuming the galting cannons remain the same cost.

That is
9 stubber shots
4d6 frag shots
2 Krak shots
18 str 5 ap -1 shots.

25 points wasn't what was holding this unit back - it's more like 50 or 60.

Compare it to a Command punisher.
Which has 43 shots str 5 for 195. About the same firepower at about the same range for about 100 points less. Plus the command russ gets orders

You only lose 4 wounds and fly keyword and transport capacity (which really isn't worth much). Hard to imagine the Repulsor being more than 50 more points than command punisher.

To be fair almost everything in the game falls short of the raw # efficiency of guard units.

Yeah let's not go all in on a race too the bottom in prices. Marines need some buffs but lets try for balanced not broken.

Ummm - how many command publishers show up in tournaments? I've literally never seen one in a local or in a list I've looked at online. It's a good unit for sure but it wouldn't call it broken. It's just a really good dakka tank. That's what a repulsor is and they should be comparable.

Maybe because AM have a thousand of overpowered and undercosted units? Yes the command punisher is undercosted but AM has other tools that are probably more broken. Half their codex, along with the IK one, should be massively nerfed. 43 S5 shots should cost 250 points at least, probably even more. The diss ravager has just 9 S5 shots, costs 125 points, it's buffed only by taking a specific kabal, and lots of people call it overpowered.

Neophyte2012 wrote:

 Stux wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
For Dakkanaught netlisters who only play the Primo Best Units™ they won't be good until someone else wins with them consistently.

I still see Repulsors everywhere doing a lot of great work on every table I see them on. Turns out just bringing tools to kill a Knight doesn't help when you're facing 2 mobile Repulsors alongside a bunch of Dreads.

Repulsors have one massive advantage over LRs though: FLY keyword means they can fall back and shoot.

All Repulsors need is a few points off and they'll be a decent unit. You can't say the same about LRs because they just get locked down too easily and even at 300pts that's not really acceptable.

Do note that the Repulsor can also be lock down in combat easily. Just have a horde of models surround it and it is dead. Given its large size and only 10" movement, it is almost not posdible to pull it out of 1" from enemy models should they have put a second layers of models on the side of the vehicle.

I'd say in most circumstances it's harder to do that than you think. First off it's quite a big distance to get all the way around it. Second as it has FLY it can move over models as it falls backs, so the wall of enemy models has to be thick enough to prevent that.

It certainly can happen, but it's difficult enough that with some smart play it should generally be avoidable.

Yeah I don't see it being easy, you already have to substract 2" from your charge, and it is a pretty big model. Then your horde will make 2 damage at most because of T8 and it'll just fly away to mow down the horde in the next turn.

Bonus if you have your Repulsor in a crater for a -4" to charge distance.