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 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

Scout Bikes as UM IMO are amazing, fast cheap, effective, can fallback and still shoot.

Just how many points is an SM Biker with a PG (or combi) and a stormshield after CA?

I think you'd be surprised. Not great, but very different form what it was.

Bharring wrote:
Just how many points is an SM Biker with a PG (or combi) and a stormshield after CA?

I think you'd be surprised. Not great, but very different form what it was.

Nornal Bikers cannot take SS. It is the Veterans on Bikes that can take a combi or special of any kind and a Stormshield, which is in Index. These loadout will be minimum 38ppm (SB and SS). And by rule of 3, you can at most take 12 models of these.

But anyway, this unit might be the most competitive thing Space Marine can offer.

Reminds me of my white scars back in tail end of 5th beginning of 6th.


Vet squad on bikes/w apothecary, 4x storm shields, powerfists, and grav guns. K'saro khan attached to them, and Iron hands captain with arti armor/shield eternal/thunderhammer.

Run the Iron hands captain up front to tank everything cept for str 10 weaponry. 2+/3++/4+++ was very durable on a T5 model.


Whole unit had hit and run, and because of grav rules any big nasty models would usually be at init. 1 during the charge phase so K'sarro could instagib them. Even wraithknights weren't immune since he had +1S on the charge with his sword.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Reminds me of my white scars back in tail end of 5th beginning of 6th.


Vet squad on bikes/w apothecary, 4x storm shields, powerfists, and grav guns. K'saro khan attached to them, and Iron hands captain with arti armor/shield eternal/thunderhammer.

Run the Iron hands captain up front to tank everything cept for str 10 weaponry. 2+/3++/4+++ was very durable on a T5 model.


Whole unit had hit and run, and because of grav rules any big nasty models would usually be at init. 1 during the charge phase so K'sarro could instagib them. Even wraithknights weren't immune since he had +1S on the charge with his sword.

That is a thing long been kaput by transcation into 8th edition. Many special that make it strong is gone, and their strongest weapon is now a piece of worthless trash. Now the best build will be 12 Veteran Bikers surrounding Guilliman


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

In theory and maths, Space Marine Bikers outshoot similar points of Skyweaver against basic light infantry at 12" range and slightly inferior but still comparable at 24" range. The SM bikers are only 2" short in movement, not so bad on paper.

However, that is not the whole story.

The tabletop battle field will almost always NOT being a flat ground. There will be lots of LoS blocking features. Harlequin Jetbike can fly, which gives them huge edge to their actual mobility compare to SM bikers, as they can simply jump over large blocks in a straight line while SM bikers have to drive around. Other factors brought over by Harlequin trickery should also be accounted when you comparing them to the Space Marines, which is they can fall back and shoot and charge as normal, while marines can only either 1. fall back and shoot with -1 to hit, or 2. fall back and charge with the bikers' pittyful 1A Str4 AP0 depends on the Chapters. These trickery gives Harlequin huge advantage in inititive in actual fight that is gonna to tip the balance of battle.

In short, Harlequin Skyweaver worths very points they pay for. Look at the meta and you will see until CA2018, there is almost no sight of Space Marine Bikers but Harlequin Skyweavers are everywhere in any competitive lists, they slaughter any IK and do pretty well even not against IK.

Skyweavers against a knight that is doomed and jinxed is a guarnteed kill. Oh, they can also be deepstruck. Oh, they also can shoot when they die on a 4+.

My regular opponent is a top ranked eldar player and skyweavers are the bane of any vehicle I bring. Even my plagueburst crawlers get smoked when I use DG. My best advice is to force lots and lots of saves. Someone mentioned aggressors which are uniquely useful against them. Lootas if orks. You get the picture. Since they have a 4+ invul ap means nothing but it is still just a 4+ save. Find a unit or combo that allows you to roll lots of dice and you'll feel in more control.

 mokoshkana wrote:
Also, the notion that they delete Titans at will is just absurd. A unit of 6 does around 8 MW on average a turn to vehicles.

Went to a tournament once where the player guided and doomed a knight. Did 50 MW's in a single turn over 3 bike squads. Because knights are T8, and the weapons only wound on 6's they can reroll 1-5s for those juicy sixes and then keep the additional mortal wounds on the second rounds of 4's and 5's.

Now this is of course an edge case due to the S4 vs T8, but with some psychic support they can indeed one turn titans.
I'm fine with them murdering knights though, they do need something that hurts them but its also silly to claim that they aren't amazingly versatile. Being decent in CC, decent in shooting (excellent V vehicles) and having literally no board control mechanic (being able to fall back then shoot then charge while also having the fly keyword with superb mobility) and very durable (-1 to hit with a 4++ is no joke) make them auto takes.

Lets stop arguing if the Skyweaver is OP / busted or not. I am sure are ranked from highly overcosted to totally broken OP in different players view.

But lets back to the topic finding the best answer against them as that is what the original poster needs.

I've proposed Cusodes Jetbike. Not gonna to repeat the reasoning of it. Another thing I see useful is the high RoF Str5+ shots weapons mounted on a platform that would not be suffering penalty to hit due to moving.

The examples of such weapons for Imperium (i.e. the major factions the op uses) are Heavy Bolter, Assault Cannon, Onslaught Gatling Cannon, Multilaser, Punisher Gatling Cannons, and the like. However, every platform of these weapons that can move and shoot without penalty are vehicles, which are easy prey for the Harle Jetbikes. And Harle with their -1 to hit and awesome mobility will almost certainly have the upper had VS these platforms, especially most of these platforms are vunerable to being tied up in combat.

One of the maybe better candidates I find maybe Space Wolves Longfang. As per Blackie suggested, their stratagem allows them ignoring the penalty to hit. So, with 4 CP, a unit carrying 5 HB and a WGPL in TA with Assault Cannon coming up from any table edge can deliver 18 shots hitting on 3s reroll 1s and reroll all wounds plus a total of 1d3 MW. But still, that would be only 63% chances to kill 2 Jetbikes, or 3 Jetbikes if the D3 MW wound scores high..... Sounds not as great as thise longfangs will not have a chance to fire their second volley.

Anyone have more ideas?

Vilehydra wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Also, the notion that they delete Titans at will is just absurd. A unit of 6 does around 8 MW on average a turn to vehicles.

Went to a tournament once where the player guided and doomed a knight. Did 50 MW's in a single turn over 3 bike squads. Because knights are T8, and the weapons only wound on 6's they can reroll 1-5s for those juicy sixes and then keep the additional mortal wounds on the second rounds of 4's and 5's.

Now this is of course an edge case due to the S4 vs T8, but with some psychic support they can indeed one turn titans.
I'm fine with them murdering knights though, they do need something that hurts them but its also silly to claim that they aren't amazingly versatile. Being decent in CC, decent in shooting (excellent V vehicles) and having literally no board control mechanic (being able to fall back then shoot then charge while also having the fly keyword with superb mobility) and very durable (-1 to hit with a 4++ is no joke) make them auto takes.

Skyweavers do seem ridiculous when you cheat with them. You can't Guide Skyweavers, they aren't an Asuryani unit. Just like you can't Quicken or Protect them either. They don't have the correct keyword. Also can't cast the Shadowseer -1 to hit powers on them either as they aren't infantry (another frequently misplayed psychic power).

Neophyte2012 wrote:


In short, Harlequin Skyweaver worths very points they pay for. Look at the meta and you will see until CA2018, there is almost no sight of Space Marine Bikers but Harlequin Skyweavers are everywhere in any competitive lists, they slaughter any IK and do pretty well even not against IK.

Showing up at tournaments doesn't define the state of a unit. Skyweavers are just more common because they're more suited for the tournament meta, aka anti knights meta. Many drukhari lists look overpowered only because they're anti tournament meta since they suffer a lot from weapons that are not tipycal of tourneys (heavy bolters, assault cannons, autocannons...) but they can soak very well the tipycal anti tank that is required to bring down a knight. Even some index orks placed high in tournaments, but was it because boyz were oustanding and undercosted? Not at all, it was because they could laugh at all the lascannons and their equivalents that many players brought, other than slowplaying and exploiting the fact that tournaments' games have time limitations. In a regular 40k game, in a more TAC environment, the same index list was extremely poor.

Basic marines bikes are anti infantries and all marines armies have tons of other options to choose from, even without allies. Harlequins don't. Scout bikes, in a meta where imperium soups with IK don't exist or aren't the most common list, are a legit unit.

If knights weren't that common in tournaments Skyweavers, and haywire sources in general, would be much less appealing.

Mortal wounds kills them fast as well., HB/ML D3 MW strats, Smites, etc.. Sure its only kill 1-2 a turn, but thats better than 0.

Also Flamers and HF's, they are going to get within range of you, 20-24" is a must for them, its easy to get a few HF's into range of them, SoB with Celestine (new one) and 3 units of HF Rets (with +2 bodies so now you have 3 extra bodies) is slightly under 500pts, AOF the new 3 CP to 3"move them all when they get close to you, you can move + advance and still fire. Thats 13D6 S5 -1ap. That will kill a full unit of them (16 wounds). Then if they charge you thats free overwatch. They are also 2+/5++ while in cover, can give them FnP as well if wanted.

They are bad at shooting T4 3+ saves, yeah they can melee out Primaris, but dont take MW models against them that dont have Invuls.

Take Custodes Shield Caps, as well. The re-roll charges, 3++ is a good relic, you can even have 5+++.


Remember, Skyweavers are only good against Elite units and Tanks, yeah they are Ok at infinity, but Aeldari has 1200x better anti-infantry units. Like Shiny Spears, and they are cheaper....... Skyweavers are only popular right now b.c Knights are popular. AND b.c Troupes are GOD AWFUL!!!!!
.

If you have custodes and guard I would think you'd have no problem beating 18 skyweavers. Just bring no tanks. Deathwatch are also an option given how good storm shiled/storm bolter deathwatch are at the exact same thing.

Non vehicle unit with an invuln save and weight of fire = useless skyweaver.

Custode bikes are probably the meanest counter. BS2+ hurricane bolters and D3 damage melee...

Limit their ideal targets is the biggest thing. Don't give them a Knight to kill, and you've dropped their effectiveness a bunch. Force them to deal with infantry or bikers, and they aren't happy.

Custode Bikes seem like they'd do mean things. I just wouldn't write off Guardsmen or other troops either.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

marine bikers have 0 close combat ability and don't have invun saves. They are an anti infatry specialist. I would expect them to outperform quin bikers per point at that roll. Really though they don't. Not by much. They also - risk not shooting next turn if they charge something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LOL - love the suggestions - don't bring vehicals.

Nah - they aren't OP.

"Don't bring Knights" - because Harlies + Doom will shred them

You can bring vehicles. I'd advise not bringing Land Raiders, but Rhino-class vehicles are fine. Harlie Bikes will kill them, but not nearly as quickly per point as a Knight or Land Raider. And Doom on a Rhino isn't going to mean much.

Vilehydra wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Also, the notion that they delete Titans at will is just absurd. A unit of 6 does around 8 MW on average a turn to vehicles.

Went to a tournament once where the player guided and doomed a knight. Did 50 MW's in a single turn over 3 bike squads. Because knights are T8, and the weapons only wound on 6's they can reroll 1-5s for those juicy sixes and then keep the additional mortal wounds on the second rounds of 4's and 5's.

Now this is of course an edge case due to the S4 vs T8, but with some psychic support they can indeed one turn titans.
I'm fine with them murdering knights though, they do need something that hurts them but its also silly to claim that they aren't amazingly versatile. Being decent in CC, decent in shooting (excellent V vehicles) and having literally no board control mechanic (being able to fall back then shoot then charge while also having the fly keyword with superb mobility) and very durable (-1 to hit with a 4++ is no joke) make them auto takes.

Think confusion comes from terminology here where titans and knights are used synonymously even though titans are their own things(and so sucky it doesn't matter even if 6 skyweavers would insta kill titan...). Titans aren't deleted. Knights meanwhile 18 takes down quite easily.

tneva82 wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Also, the notion that they delete Titans at will is just absurd. A unit of 6 does around 8 MW on average a turn to vehicles.

Went to a tournament once where the player guided and doomed a knight. Did 50 MW's in a single turn over 3 bike squads. Because knights are T8, and the weapons only wound on 6's they can reroll 1-5s for those juicy sixes and then keep the additional mortal wounds on the second rounds of 4's and 5's.

Now this is of course an edge case due to the S4 vs T8, but with some psychic support they can indeed one turn titans.
I'm fine with them murdering knights though, they do need something that hurts them but its also silly to claim that they aren't amazingly versatile. Being decent in CC, decent in shooting (excellent V vehicles) and having literally no board control mechanic (being able to fall back then shoot then charge while also having the fly keyword with superb mobility) and very durable (-1 to hit with a 4++ is no joke) make them auto takes.

Think confusion comes from terminology here where titans and knights are used synonymously even though titans are their own things(and so sucky it doesn't matter even if 6 skyweavers would insta kill titan...). Titans aren't deleted. Knights meanwhile 18 takes down quite easily.

As they should. If I spend 906 points on 3 units, they should be able to kill 400 points worth of something 1 unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

marine bikers have 0 close combat ability and don't have invun saves. They are an anti infatry specialist. I would expect them to outperform quin bikers per point at that roll. Really though they don't. Not by much. They also - risk not shooting next turn if they charge something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LOL - love the suggestions - don't bring vehicals.

Nah - they aren't OP.

They really aren't. Within the confines of the Harlequin codex, they are strong, but not overly powerful or broken. External buffs may be a different story, but that is a different discussion altogether. Soup is dumb and shouldn't exist.

At any rate, this thread is tempting me to go get 2 boxes of DE Hellions to attach to the back of my (shelved) Wind Riders and paint them like Skyweavers.
2x 5 units are sounding really good.

-

 Galef wrote:
At any rate, this thread is tempting me to go get 2 boxes of DE Hellions to attach to the back of my (shelved) Wind Riders and paint them like Skyweavers.
2x 5 units are sounding really good.

-

Bring 18 - pretty much auto win vs any opponent that has armor. By auto win - I mean - they have literally 0 chance against you. Don't forget these bikes are on demand -1 to hit and can go to a 3++ save.

Aside from actual Troops, I would never bring 18 of any one model. No matter how good they are, that's just too much. It's not fun for me, nor my opponent.
2x5 is the sweet spot for me personally. If I want more Bikes, I'd add a unit of Spears and some Skyrunner HQs.
I'm a firm believer in the Rule of 3 and not spamming. 90% of every list I've every taken only duplicates units, rather than triplicate them

-

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

marine bikers have 0 close combat ability and don't have invun saves. They are an anti infatry specialist. I would expect them to outperform quin bikers per point at that roll. Really though they don't. Not by much. They also - risk not shooting next turn if they charge something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LOL - love the suggestions - don't bring vehicals.

Nah - they aren't OP.

If someone said to me "my opponent's army is 32 guardsmen in front of 1800 points of marine devastators with lascannons" my advice to them would be identical.

Bring anything but a vehicle.

Auto-win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Aside from actual Troops, I would never bring 18 of any one model. No matter how good they are, that's just too much. It's not fun for me, nor my opponent.
2x5 is the sweet spot for me personally. If I want more Bikes, I'd add a unit of Spears and some Skyrunner HQs.
I'm a firm believer in the Rule of 3 and not spamming. 90% of every list I've every taken only duplicates units, rather than triplicate them

-

Yup. Over 900 points of just one single anti-tank specialist.

Also, FTR, just in case someone reads Xenos "and marine bikes aren't even better at killing infantry!" statement and thinks that's true, 18x haywire/zephyr skyweavers is 918 points. They kill 23.3 GEQ in shooting, 24 in melee. For the same points you could theoretically get 40 marine bikes with chainswords, who kill 47 GEQ in shooting and 27.5 in melee. 47.3 vs 74.5. Marine bikers are 37% better vs Guard equivalents, Skyweavers are 56% better for the points versus standard vehicles. (this is assuming some floaty theoretical situation where each squad gets to shoot everything and melee everything, but it's a guideline at least.).

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
At any rate, this thread is tempting me to go get 2 boxes of DE Hellions to attach to the back of my (shelved) Wind Riders and paint them like Skyweavers.
2x 5 units are sounding really good.

-

Bring 18 - pretty much auto win vs any opponent that has armor. By auto win - I mean - they have literally 0 chance against you. Don't forget these bikes are on demand -1 to hit and can go to a 3++ save.

18 bikes would auto-lose against lots of armies actually. SW with lots of storm shield dudes, drukhari with lots of coven monsters, green tide orks.... all pretty standard way to field those armies.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
Let's also realize that if you want to talk about effectively killing guardsman in cc, then each unit of Skyweavers cost 36 more points as they pay 6 points for the priviledge of S4 AP-2 D2, so those 18d6 shots now cost 906 points not 810.

As anyone with a brain should actaully do on a unit that can charge and fall back and act as normal. Everyone I know does that. Plus I always facotr the 18 bikes as costing 900 points. Comparable to the cost of 70 tactical marines (which they out-damage vs infantry in every realistic scenario) because they move 3x as fast.

Okay great, then compare them to Marine Bikers where the speed is much more equivalent. That comparison doesn't fit your narrative though, does it?

marine bikers have 0 close combat ability and don't have invun saves. They are an anti infatry specialist. I would expect them to outperform quin bikers per point at that roll. Really though they don't. Not by much. They also - risk not shooting next turn if they charge something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
LOL - love the suggestions - don't bring vehicals.

Nah - they aren't OP.

If someone said to me "my opponent's army is 32 guardsmen in front of 1800 points of marine devastators with lascannons" my advice to them would be identical.

Bring anything but a vehicle.

Auto-win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Aside from actual Troops, I would never bring 18 of any one model. No matter how good they are, that's just too much. It's not fun for me, nor my opponent.
2x5 is the sweet spot for me personally. If I want more Bikes, I'd add a unit of Spears and some Skyrunner HQs.
I'm a firm believer in the Rule of 3 and not spamming. 90% of every list I've every taken only duplicates units, rather than triplicate them

-

Yup. Over 900 points of just one single anti-tank specialist.

Also, FTR, just in case someone reads Xenos "and marine bikes aren't even better at killing infantry!" statement and thinks that's true, 18x haywire/zephyr skyweavers is 918 points. They kill 23.3 GEQ in shooting, 24 in melee. For the same points you could theoretically get 40 marine bikes with chainswords, who kill 47 GEQ in shooting and 27.5 in melee. 47.3 vs 74.5. Marine bikers are 37% better vs Guard equivalents, Skyweavers are 56% better for the points versus standard vehicles. (this is assuming some floaty theoretical situation where each squad gets to shoot everything and melee everything, but it's a guideline at least.).

Pretty sure you are going to take boltguns on the bikers because it's the same cost and it's better. 6 shots str 4 per. But it's only 3 over 12 inches. Plus it's pretty much impossible to rapid fire with 30+ bikes and have anything left to charge that is infantry. In the end - the two units are both going to wipe 60 gaurdsmen so what does it matter? The only difference? Those space marine bikes get obliterated from practically any special weapon - take your pick. The harlie bikes....there really isn't a weapon good at killing them that they can't just sweep under the rug with stratagems and spells. Not to mention the fly keyword which allows them to possition better. You make a really good case for space marine bikes though - you should try entering 30+ marine bikes at LVO - I'd enjoy the free win. Lets also not forget the real issue here...Harlie bikes 1 shot titans with no save of any kind. If space marine bikes could do that...I'd call them OP too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:
At any rate, this thread is tempting me to go get 2 boxes of DE Hellions to attach to the back of my (shelved) Wind Riders and paint them like Skyweavers.
2x 5 units are sounding really good.

-

Bring 18 - pretty much auto win vs any opponent that has armor. By auto win - I mean - they have literally 0 chance against you. Don't forget these bikes are on demand -1 to hit and can go to a 3++ save.

18 bikes would auto-lose against lots of armies actually. SW with lots of storm shield dudes, drukhari with lots of coven monsters, green tide orks.... all pretty standard way to field those armies.

It's very rare to see a space wolf army without vheicals. Plus - Theres still 1100 points worth of alderi here...I'm pretty sure it's easy enough to cover the weakness of these units with eldar units...You know...kind of like tournament winning eldar lists are doing.

I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

Just because pretty much nothing Xeno says should ever not be fact-checked, I looked over at the Bloodofkittens October Event report. Of 11 ITC events in October, Harlequin bikes appear in the top three list of 2 of the events. One of the two was the overall winner.

A very significant number of those top three lists were aeldari soup (as usual, all but a couple were Aeldari, Imperial or Chaos soup, with them being approximately in that order in terms of pouplarity) and the vast majority did not choose to bring skyweavers at all. In both cases they were using Ynnari rules.

It would seem they are a competitive unit to be sure, but they do not seem to be any kind of "meta" build. I would also heavily suspect that their synergy with Ynnari and the extreme synergy with Doom would be more of the problem rather than the base unit. Without doom, it takes 18 skyweavers (918 points) to down an imperial knight, while with doom they can do that with 10.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

As a person that has many harlequin games vs almost every army and also plays Ynnari/Skyweavers.

I took out my Skyweavers. They honestly are not that good if they dont have a juicy target. Many times they are wasted. Their Melee is REALLY BAD as well, you would think they are good, but hitting on 3+ no re-rolls, wound on 3-5+ no re-rolls isnt good. They are S4, thats weak when you are not on a Doom target, But if you Doom something you dont need to melee it at all so.... yeah.

SoB are perfect to counter to army honestly. 120+ models with 200+ shots a turn (54 HB, 110 SB, 60 bolter, shots) all re-roll 1's and +1 to hit with new AOF strat (unless they AoV it, so they will have to, but then you use the -2ap 2D SB strat) And with the WL trait and Relic to +3" the Aura, you can have a 4++ on over 50% of your army, along with a 6+++. (there are a couple way to get 4++, always on some units, other units its once per game, but in general you will always have a 5++/6+++ for all turns, a couple turns you get the 4++)

"Bring 18 - pretty much auto win vs any opponent that has armor. By auto win - I mean - they have literally 0 chance against you. Don't forget these bikes are on demand -1 to hit and can go to a 3++ save."
If this were true, why is Imperial Soup regularly punching either at or above their weight?

They're top tier, but the stats say "nowhere close to autowin".

Bharring wrote:
"Bring 18 - pretty much auto win vs any opponent that has armor. By auto win - I mean - they have literally 0 chance against you. Don't forget these bikes are on demand -1 to hit and can go to a 3++ save."
If this were true, why is Imperial Soup regularly punching either at or above their weight?

They're top tier, but the stats say "nowhere close to autowin".

It doesn't. Look at aeldari win rate compared to imperial soup - it is much higher. Plus we all know the answer to why imperial soup does so well. Infantry are not 4 point models and are the most spammed unit in all of 40k.

"It doesn't."
First off, even if the win rate were really that much higher, it's nowhere close to 'literally 0 chance'.

Second, pulling up 5 random placing lists from October, I see list with a Knight, vehicles in the other 4 lists, and 0 Skyweavers.

Third, how can lists have a 0% chance of winning if they have vehicles, but a list with vehicles plus Infantry have a non-0% chance? It doesn't work that way.

Fourth, while Skyweavers are really good, they aren't the majority of Aeldari soup. But the majority of IoM Soup lists *do* have armor.

In other words, you're making stuff up and passing it off as fact again.