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Bharring wrote:
"It doesn't."
First off, even if the win rate were really that much higher, it's nowhere close to 'literally 0 chance'.

Second, pulling up 5 random placing lists from October, I see list with a Knight, vehicles in the other 4 lists, and 0 Skyweavers.

Third, how can lists have a 0% chance of winning if they have vehicles, but a list with vehicles plus Infantry have a non-0% chance? It doesn't work that way.

Fourth, while Skyweavers are really good, they aren't the majority of Aeldari soup. But the majority of IoM Soup lists *do* have armor.

In other words, you're making stuff up and passing it off as fact again.

Making up nothing. If you are trying to state that quinn bikes aren't a top build right now that goes undefeated and wins in tournaments. You are lying to yourself and to everyone in here.

To the OP - if you want help with harlequin skyweavers - the answer is to pick another army. Skyweavers invalidate imperial knights.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Bharring wrote:
"It doesn't."
First off, even if the win rate were really that much higher, it's nowhere close to 'literally 0 chance'.

Second, pulling up 5 random placing lists from October, I see list with a Knight, vehicles in the other 4 lists, and 0 Skyweavers.

Third, how can lists have a 0% chance of winning if they have vehicles, but a list with vehicles plus Infantry have a non-0% chance? It doesn't work that way.

Fourth, while Skyweavers are really good, they aren't the majority of Aeldari soup. But the majority of IoM Soup lists *do* have armor.

In other words, you're making stuff up and passing it off as fact again.

Making up nothing. If you are trying to state that quinn bikes aren't a top build right now that goes undefeated and wins in tournaments. You are lying to yourself and to everyone in here.

To the OP - if you want help with harlequin skyweavers - the answer is to pick another army. Skyweavers invalidate imperial knights.

Or, more accurately, "goes undefeated and wins at tournament."

They placed third at the only other event I can find them appearing at. Can't determine whether they went undefeated or not at the one event they won.

Given how many lists with knights I can find among the 33 top 3s in October (12) they would seem to not be invalidated.

I would definitely not play pure ik against a 2k list that is 50% star weavers.

I would advise against playing Knights at all, if max Skyweavers is a common occurance.

I would not say that it's hopeless to face a list that puts half its points into Skyweavers just because you have a Rhino or something, though.

There's a big difference.

Haven't read through the whole thread (yeah, lazy I know), but with what you listed I would think a hard counter would be Deathwatch. Massed SB/SS dudes don't care about his -1 to your AP, and if you have the right Mission Tactic (rerolling wounds of 1 vs fast attack) and you're using hellfire Rounds that already wound on 2+, you are throwing out a ton of shots at him. Add in a few Frag Cannons in case he wants to charge you and makes the mistake of moving too close for you to pop the Aeldari specific strat. Any vehicle you take vs that much HW will just disappear.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

Just because pretty much nothing Xeno says should ever not be fact-checked, I looked over at the Bloodofkittens October Event report. Of 11 ITC events in October, Harlequin bikes appear in the top three list of 2 of the events. One of the two was the overall winner.

A very significant number of those top three lists were aeldari soup (as usual, all but a couple were Aeldari, Imperial or Chaos soup, with them being approximately in that order in terms of pouplarity) and the vast majority did not choose to bring skyweavers at all. In both cases they were using Ynnari rules.

It would seem they are a competitive unit to be sure, but they do not seem to be any kind of "meta" build. I would also heavily suspect that their synergy with Ynnari and the extreme synergy with Doom would be more of the problem rather than the base unit. Without doom, it takes 18 skyweavers (918 points) to down an imperial knight, while with doom they can do that with 10.

This is the issue then 450 to 510 point of skyweavers plus a 135 point farseer removes a 600 point model that's a 100 percent return rate is a single round of shooting. Thats indefensibly busted.

I increasingly think they are overpowered.

The issue is that they are not fragile enough. With the -1 to hit and 4++ and even the T4 increase there is nothing that really mows them down. The 3 wounds often makes 2 damage/d3 damage weapons inefficient. Throw in stratagems and it starts to get silly unless the Harlequin player has awful luck.

You can say things like Heavy Bolters - but there is no way to efficiently bring heavy bolters in any list as far as I can see - and they are not great even if you do.

Tyel wrote:
I increasingly think they are overpowered.

The issue is that they are not fragile enough. With the -1 to hit and 4++ and even the T4 increase there is nothing that really mows them down. The 3 wounds often makes 2 damage/d3 damage weapons inefficient. Throw in stratagems and it starts to get silly unless the Harlequin player has awful luck.

You can say things like Heavy Bolters - but there is no way to efficiently bring heavy bolters in any list as far as I can see - and they are not great even if you do.

Tau / Eldar might have good enough weapons platforms to deal with Skyweavers, many of their high RoF Str5+ long range weapons are assault type or can fire ignore LoS, while their platform is fast.

But Space Marines or IG might struggle to find a good platform. Actually if you only talk about killing the Skyweavers, IG Tank Commander with Punisher Cannon and 3 HB is a real good candidate. But it is a vehicle, which is easy prey to the Jetbikes.

You do know that a single haywire/zephyrglaive bike is 51pts right? It's not exactly cheap.

 bullyboy wrote:
Haven't read through the whole thread (yeah, lazy I know), but with what you listed I would think a hard counter would be Deathwatch. Massed SB/SS dudes don't care about his -1 to your AP, and if you have the right Mission Tactic (rerolling wounds of 1 vs flyers) and you're using hellfire Rounds that already wound on 2+, you are throwing out a ton of shots at him. Add in a few Frag Cannons in case he wants to charge you and makes the mistake of moving too close for you to pop the Aeldari specific strat. Any vehicle you take vs that much HW will just disappear.

Actually you have to take the Harlequin defensive stratagems into account, so do always count it as being -2 to hit after you declare the target. When drawing battle plan, we need to always consider the worst case possible.

But yes, after the CA, deathwatch with SB and SS on everyone is a good candidate to counter Skyweaver Jetbikes. But I tends to disagree on the Fragcannon, it is overpriced when we are talking about counter Harlequins. In this scenario the only good profile is the 2D6 auto hit one, but 8" is just too short.

Tyel wrote:
I increasingly think they are overpowered.

The issue is that they are not fragile enough. With the -1 to hit and 4++ and even the T4 increase there is nothing that really mows them down. The 3 wounds often makes 2 damage/d3 damage weapons inefficient. Throw in stratagems and it starts to get silly unless the Harlequin player has awful luck.

You can say things like Heavy Bolters - but there is no way to efficiently bring heavy bolters in any list as far as I can see - and they are not great even if you do.

No? Devatators are pretty good, way better than hellblasters for example. Always avoid plasma against the elves. Cheap predators and razorbacks with ass cannons are also good deals points wise even if they are vehicles. SM flyers also.

 Blackie wrote:
No? Devatators are pretty good, way better than hellblasters for example. Always avoid plasma against the elves. Cheap predators and razorbacks with ass cannons are also good deals points wise even if they are vehicles. SM flyers also.

Really?
12 shots. 6.5 hits. 4.33 wounds. 2 go through. That's about 34 points for 105. Only a 33% return on your points before the Harlequin player does anything.
That's not great. Certainly not "hard counter" level good.

Bikers are 51 points. With 3 wounds that makes them 17 points per wound. This isn't cheap - but its not ludicrously expensive either. They don't like mortal wounds, but no more than most MEQ lists.

They should be vulnerable to multi-damage weapons, but because of the -1 to hit and the 4++ they are not really. You can blam them with say lascannons - but this isn't hugely efficient either. There is a flatter normal distribution so doing averages is a bit misleading - but say 4 lascannon/missile devs wind up doing about 1 wound after saves, so a 2/3rds chance to kill a bike. Which still isn't good. Massed guard autocannons? Hitting on 5s, wounding on 3s, 4++ save? Again, not great.

Obviously they do die. But for a unit which can generate 50%->100%+ returns versus knights - and quite a few vehicles paying 15-20 points per wound - there is no comparable thing to avoid yourself beyond the obvious. (You don't want to get charged by a half-decent melee blob for instance.)

12 heavy bolter shots should actually do more than 6.5 hits. SM have BS3+ and lots of re-rolls available. Signum and cherub. Heavy bolter's range is pretty good actually. There's also a stratagem that makes a single heavy bolter into a source of mortal wounds.

Avoid lascannons, missile launchers and plasma against harlequins. They have nothing above T5 and those weapons are too expensive. With plasma you're only killing yourself, but generally speaking I find plasma overrated.

I don't play with SM gunlines though, all my lists are highly assault oriented with some good ranged firepower as a support, not the core of the list. SW long fangs also removes all the "to hit" penalties against a target for 1 CP. TWC and wulfen are pretty good against harlequins, generally speaking spamming 3++ is a godsend to SM. Massive bolter shots kill the bikes as well, and storm bolters can be spammed for dirt cheap. Long fangs can only have 6 dudes though, while SM devastators can bring more stock dudes, which should help keeping the heavy weapons alive. Harlequins aren't that effective in killing marines, especially in cover. Hidden weapons that ignore LOS could also work. The stalker could be an option as well since everything in the harlequins list can fly and it's not particularly expensive, 6 autocannons shots at BS3+ that negate the -1 to hit sound great and they usually work against my drukhari.

Massed guard maybe don't cause that much damage, but they're also harder to kill for that jetbikes which aren't particularly effective against infantries.

I've played harlequins for a few months this summer and played against them a lot with all my armies (also using sisters). Pure harlies aren't a top tier army, too many weaknesses on their side. And yes, durability is one of them, they're still paper things. They may be excellent in killing one knight but they feel hopeless against hordes and armies that outperform them in melee. No real answers against high armor that aren't vehicles, just expensive crappy-range melta pistols.

The psychic power that removes invulns works on 8, sure, but if it works it can strip several bikes of their invuln and after that they'll die like flies. Any source of mortal wounds is also very effective against harlequins since they're an elite army with not many dudes on the battlefield.

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

Just because pretty much nothing Xeno says should ever not be fact-checked, I looked over at the Bloodofkittens October Event report. Of 11 ITC events in October, Harlequin bikes appear in the top three list of 2 of the events. One of the two was the overall winner.

A very significant number of those top three lists were aeldari soup (as usual, all but a couple were Aeldari, Imperial or Chaos soup, with them being approximately in that order in terms of pouplarity) and the vast majority did not choose to bring skyweavers at all. In both cases they were using Ynnari rules.

It would seem they are a competitive unit to be sure, but they do not seem to be any kind of "meta" build. I would also heavily suspect that their synergy with Ynnari and the extreme synergy with Doom would be more of the problem rather than the base unit. Without doom, it takes 18 skyweavers (918 points) to down an imperial knight, while with doom they can do that with 10.

This is the issue then 450 to 510 point of skyweavers plus a 135 point farseer removes a 600 point model that's a 100 percent return rate is a single round of shooting. Thats indefensibly busted.

And that's not on the Skyweavers. That is an issue with soup.

 mokoshkana wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

Just because pretty much nothing Xeno says should ever not be fact-checked, I looked over at the Bloodofkittens October Event report. Of 11 ITC events in October, Harlequin bikes appear in the top three list of 2 of the events. One of the two was the overall winner.

A very significant number of those top three lists were aeldari soup (as usual, all but a couple were Aeldari, Imperial or Chaos soup, with them being approximately in that order in terms of pouplarity) and the vast majority did not choose to bring skyweavers at all. In both cases they were using Ynnari rules.

It would seem they are a competitive unit to be sure, but they do not seem to be any kind of "meta" build. I would also heavily suspect that their synergy with Ynnari and the extreme synergy with Doom would be more of the problem rather than the base unit. Without doom, it takes 18 skyweavers (918 points) to down an imperial knight, while with doom they can do that with 10.

This is the issue then 450 to 510 point of skyweavers plus a 135 point farseer removes a 600 point model that's a 100 percent return rate is a single round of shooting. Thats indefensibly busted.

And that's not on the Skyweavers. That is an issue with soup.

Yeah, an FAQ changing Doom to say "Asuryani units shooting that unit reroll to wound" would solve 100% of the issues with Skyweavers and many of the issues with dissie ravagers.

Remember when GW nerfed all the good stuff in the marine codex because guilliman existed for one chapter, instead of just nerfing guilliman's busted-ass aura? How about we don't repeat that mistake just because "this stuff belongs to that other faction I don't like and I'd rather they be nerfed into oblivion!"

As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

If a 100% points return is indefensibly busted when it requires two detachments and a psychic power, what is a 76% points return against them?

the_scotsman wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

Ice_can wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:
I get the impression someone lost a knight to harlie bikers recently.

I get the impression that quinn bikers are being spammed in high numbers and winning tournaments because they are OP and good against everything. The eldar lists with 15+ harlie bikes...how many knight armies do you think they are playing? How do they beat all the other armies they face? I guess because they are a terrible unit.

Just because pretty much nothing Xeno says should ever not be fact-checked, I looked over at the Bloodofkittens October Event report. Of 11 ITC events in October, Harlequin bikes appear in the top three list of 2 of the events. One of the two was the overall winner.

A very significant number of those top three lists were aeldari soup (as usual, all but a couple were Aeldari, Imperial or Chaos soup, with them being approximately in that order in terms of pouplarity) and the vast majority did not choose to bring skyweavers at all. In both cases they were using Ynnari rules.

It would seem they are a competitive unit to be sure, but they do not seem to be any kind of "meta" build. I would also heavily suspect that their synergy with Ynnari and the extreme synergy with Doom would be more of the problem rather than the base unit. Without doom, it takes 18 skyweavers (918 points) to down an imperial knight, while with doom they can do that with 10.

This is the issue then 450 to 510 point of skyweavers plus a 135 point farseer removes a 600 point model that's a 100 percent return rate is a single round of shooting. Thats indefensibly busted.

And that's not on the Skyweavers. That is an issue with soup.

Yeah, an FAQ changing Doom to say "Asuryani units shooting that unit reroll to wound" would solve 100% of the issues with Skyweavers and many of the issues with dissie ravagers.

Remember when GW nerfed all the good stuff in the marine codex because guilliman existed for one chapter, instead of just nerfing guilliman's busted-ass aura? How about we don't repeat that mistake just because "this stuff belongs to that other faction I don't like and I'd rather they be nerfed into oblivion!"

As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

If a 100% points return is indefensibly busted when it requires two detachments and a psychic power, what is a 76% points return against them?

Whoa now, that's dangerously close to making sense. We can't have that kind of talk here.

How about a unit of 3x Broadsides each with 2 x High-yield missile pods, 2 x Smart missile systems and velocity trackers? 351 points of that unit will statistically kill 3.333 models without marker light support. Add in a full compliment of marker lights and you are killing an average of 5 bikes (this assumes no Lightning Fast Reactions was used). That seems pretty good to me!

the_scotsman wrote:
As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

If a 100% points return is indefensibly busted when it requires two detachments and a psychic power, what is a 76% points return against them?

I may be quibbling here - but I don't see how Trakktor cannons get 50% returns.
I mean its 5/6 to wound, then 2.5/6 after saves, then you need to roll a 3+ to kill a bike. If you call that an average of 2.5 wounds on a roll (since it caps at 3) I make that around a 40%~ return on your points (17.7/45). I get around 50% for Smashas with the native -1 to hit - but I've been saying to anyone who will listen they are top tier since the points were revealed.
And really - whisper it because people on dakka seem convinced its not true - Orks are a top tier codex. If Imp/Dar soup didn't rule the world I suspect tournaments would be wall to wall with our green overlords.

The Broadsides also work with the velocity trackers. I hadn't considered them. This is because I feel ATS makes both types of missiles a lot more potent (although not against Harlies obviously).

It is also interesting to me that in our discussion we are assuming that these skyweavers

A) are spammed in such a way that you have more than 1 max-sized unit

and

B ) are all under the effect of a 2CP stratagem that can only be used on one unit per turn.

Do people not normally just commit one unit to a squad to draw out a defensive stratagem, then shift focus to the other identical unit that doesn't have that strat up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

If a 100% points return is indefensibly busted when it requires two detachments and a psychic power, what is a 76% points return against them?

I may be quibbling here - but I don't see how Trakktor cannons get 50% returns.
I mean its 5/6 to wound, then 2.5/6 after saves, then you need to roll a 3+ to kill a bike. If you call that an average of 2.5 wounds on a roll (since it caps at 3) I make that around a 40%~ return on your points (17.7/45). I get around 50% for Smashas with the native -1 to hit - but I've been saying to anyone who will listen they are top tier since the points were revealed.
And really - whisper it because people on dakka seem convinced its not true - Orks are a top tier codex. If Imp/Dar soup didn't rule the world I suspect tournaments would be wall to wall with our green overlords.

The Broadsides also work with the velocity trackers. I hadn't considered them. This is because I feel ATS makes both types of missiles a lot more potent (although not against Harlies obviously).

Ahhh, this is my mistake here - I thought Trakktor cannons got the melta damage against any unit that flies, but it's only Vehicles that fly. Yeah, the return is definitely not 50% with them, just with the smashas.

If you're playing trakktors against harlequins, it's going to be dumb to not fire your trakktors against starweavers instead. 2d6 picks the highest gets the one-shot 6 against starweavers a non trivial amount of the time.

the_scotsman wrote:
It is also interesting to me that in our discussion we are assuming that these skyweavers

A) are spammed in such a way that you have more than 1 max-sized unit

and

B ) are all under the effect of a 2CP stratagem that can only be used on one unit per turn.

Do people not normally just commit one unit to a squad to draw out a defensive stratagem, then shift focus to the other identical unit that doesn't have that strat up?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

If a 100% points return is indefensibly busted when it requires two detachments and a psychic power, what is a 76% points return against them?

I may be quibbling here - but I don't see how Trakktor cannons get 50% returns.
I mean its 5/6 to wound, then 2.5/6 after saves, then you need to roll a 3+ to kill a bike. If you call that an average of 2.5 wounds on a roll (since it caps at 3) I make that around a 40%~ return on your points (17.7/45). I get around 50% for Smashas with the native -1 to hit - but I've been saying to anyone who will listen they are top tier since the points were revealed.
And really - whisper it because people on dakka seem convinced its not true - Orks are a top tier codex. If Imp/Dar soup didn't rule the world I suspect tournaments would be wall to wall with our green overlords.

The Broadsides also work with the velocity trackers. I hadn't considered them. This is because I feel ATS makes both types of missiles a lot more potent (although not against Harlies obviously).

Ahhh, this is my mistake here - I thought Trakktor cannons got the melta damage against any unit that flies, but it's only Vehicles that fly. Yeah, the return is definitely not 50% with them, just with the smashas.

If you're playing trakktors against harlequins, it's going to be dumb to not fire your trakktors against starweavers instead. 2d6 picks the highest gets the one-shot 6 against starweavers a non trivial amount of the time.

If you're playing orks against harlequins, you've already likely won. You're going to have weight of dice that the Harlequins will not be able to beat.

Also, every target is Doomed. Forget "always goes off" or "never gets denied". I want to know how you have about 1000 points make their points back in one round shooting at doomed targets. How many lists have a single unit worth 1000 points?

Bharring wrote:
Also, every target is Doomed. Forget "always goes off" or "never gets denied". I want to know how you have about 1000 points make their points back in one round shooting at doomed targets. How many lists have a single unit worth 1000 points?

I get the feeling that Eldar opponents love hyperbole, or the posters on here get cheated by their eldar opponents at such a disproportionate rate that they dont realize that Eldar don't actually function that way. It's really crazy how reliable other folks can get their Eldar forces and I cannot.

What doesn't help their image is that their damage is mortal wounds, which feel inherently unfair as you don't get to save those.

Also, a T8 3++ target is silly durable vs anything but MW.

Coupled with T8 meaning S4 gets to reroll all non-6s, nearly doubling the output of MW.

Coupled with being the only anti-tank Harlies can bring with range beyond 6".

Bharring wrote:
Also, every target is Doomed. Forget "always goes off" or "never gets denied". I want to know how you have about 1000 points make their points back in one round shooting at doomed targets. How many lists have a single unit worth 1000 points?

When it's a 7+ on 2D6 with reroll one or both dice for free, it's pretty much a given it's getting cast, also on a jetbike casting a 24" range power when the range of denying is 24" makes any denial attempt only possible by poor play on the Eldar player's turn.

I suppose you woukd try hiding in a corner and hoping for the best, but really thats just loosing slower.

Yeah, an FAQ changing Doom to say "Asuryani units shooting that unit reroll to wound" would solve 100% of the issues with Skyweavers and many of the issues with dissie ravagers.

That's really all most people want.

"When it's a 7+ on 2D6 with reroll one or both dice for free"
Funny, 7" charges with rerolls are solid but not guarenteed.

"also on a jetbike casting a 24" range power when the range of denying is 24" makes any denial attempt only possible by poor play on the Eldar player's turn."
There is only one target in your list that Doom wants to hit.
Assuming you're bubblewrapping your Knight/Titan, place the Pskyer between it and the Farseer. The Farseer then needs to flank you hard to be closer to the Knight than you. How hard depends on how far in front of the Knight you are, but even base to base with the Knight, the Farseer now needs to move quite a long ways to be within 24" of the Knight without being within 24" of the psker. If you don't bubblewrap, that's a bad idea. But, if you don't bubblewrap, Eldar aren't your only problem.

"[Faction-lock debuffs for Doom only] That's really all most people want."
An FAQ that said "All Knights now pay an extra 1000 points" would fix all the problems Knight-detractors have. Or just make a Farseer 400pts base. Just because it solves the perceived problem at hand doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Ice_can wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Also, every target is Doomed. Forget "always goes off" or "never gets denied". I want to know how you have about 1000 points make their points back in one round shooting at doomed targets. How many lists have a single unit worth 1000 points?

When it's a 7+ on 2D6 with reroll one or both dice for free, it's pretty much a given it's getting cast, also on a jetbike casting a 24" range power when the range of denying is 24" makes any denial attempt only possible by poor play on the Eldar player's turn.

I suppose you woukd try hiding in a corner and hoping for the best, but really thats just loosing slower.

You keep adding specifics to the "indefensibly busted" combination. It isn't the jetbikes, but rather it is a slew of other things that compound to create this perfect storm. If doom fails to cast (which is admittedly not that likely) or gets denied, then the bikes very likely aren't deleting a knight.

Ice_can wrote:

Yeah, an FAQ changing Doom to say "Asuryani units shooting that unit reroll to wound" would solve 100% of the issues with Skyweavers and many of the issues with dissie ravagers.

That's really all most people want.

To be clear - 18 Jetbikes are still more likely than not removing that one Knight. But you just payed nearly 1000 points to do so.

"I'd be fine with this, but I'd also like to see CP and/or Stratagems restricted in a similar manner. As an aside, how would you handle the null zone psychic power? Would only the <Chapter> of the librarian who manifested the power be able to benefit from it?"
It's been made clear that Null Zone and Death Hex aren't impacted. Just Doom.

Bharring wrote:
"When it's a 7+ on 2D6 with reroll one or both dice for free"
Funny, 7" charges with rerolls are solid but not guarenteed.

"also on a jetbike casting a 24" range power when the range of denying is 24" makes any denial attempt only possible by poor play on the Eldar player's turn."
There is only one target in your list that Doom wants to hit.
Assuming you're bubblewrapping your Knight/Titan, place the Pskyer between it and the Farseer. The Farseer then needs to flank you hard to be closer to the Knight than you. How hard depends on how far in front of the Knight you are, but even base to base with the Knight, the Farseer now needs to move quite a long ways to be within 24" of the Knight without being within 24" of the psker. If you don't bubblewrap, that's a bad idea. But, if you don't bubblewrap, Eldar aren't your only problem.

"[Faction-lock debuffs for Doom only] That's really all most people want."
An FAQ that said "All Knights now pay an extra 1000 points" would fix all the problems Knight-detractors have. Or just make a Farseer 400pts base. Just because it solves the perceived problem at hand doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Why do people always assume it's just knights that get screwed over hard by this, OP interaction.
Leviathan dreadnaughts, spartans, Stormsurge and really anything that should actually be able to take some damage just gets point and delete.

Well if Eldar player's would stop putting everyone on a jetbike then maybe we can discuss foot seers.
M16 and an advance of 6 and trying to get with 24 inches while just outside of 24 inches of a psycher, denying is not happening.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
To be clear - 18 Jetbikes are still more likely than not removing that one Knight. But you just payed nearly 1000 points to do so.

"I'd be fine with this, but I'd also like to see CP and/or Stratagems restricted in a similar manner. As an aside, how would you handle the null zone psychic power? Would only the <Chapter> of the librarian who manifested the power be able to benefit from it?"
It's been made clear that Null Zone and Death Hex aren't impacted. Just Doom.

Yeah because a 6 inch range no invulnerable saves WC8 on a caster with no re rolls is comparable to DOOM's WC7 with reroll one or both dice.

the_scotsman wrote:


As to "nothing hurts them" try saying that to someone who knows what orks do lol. no weapon does flat 3 damage you say? -1 to hit you say? Tankbustas have a 60% points return shooting them, and Trakktor cannons have 50% (and passively ignore the -1 to hit, don't even need More Dakka). Smasha guns have a 50% return when they are -1 to hit, 76% return when they are not -1 to hit. None of those are vehicles either.

Mek gunz have the <VEHICLE> keyword.

"Why do people always assume it's just knights that get screwed over hard by this, OP interaction.
Leviathan dreadnaughts, spartans, Stormsurge and really anything that should actually be able to take some damage just gets point and delete. "
If it's a 400+ pt model, then it's in "Knight" territory.
If it's not a 400pt model, then Harlie Bikes aren't making their points back vs a Doomed target.

That's not to say that Harlie Bikes aren't going to make their points back, or that Doom isn't good. Or that some nerf isn't needed.

"Well if Eldar player's would stop putting everyone on a jetbike then maybe we can discuss foot seers.
M16 and an advance of 6 and trying to get with 24 inches while just outside of 24 inches of a psycher, denying is not happening."

Try it.
Place a JetSeer on the table. Place your bubblewrap 24" away from the JetSeeer. Place your Psyker behind your bubblewrap. Place your Knight behind the Pskyer. That JetSeer is not making it within 24" of the Knight but not the Psyker. The Knight has a larger base, but not that much larger.

"Yeah because a 6 inch range no invulnerable saves WC8 on a caster with no re rolls is comparable to DOOM's WC7 with reroll one or both dice."
Once again, nobody is saying that Null Zone is as powerful as Doom. We're saying that if all other debuffs have the same rule, Doom shouldn't get special treatment by way of a special rule. It'd be better to balance it other ways.

Bharring wrote:
"Why do people always assume it's just knights that get screwed over hard by this, OP interaction.
Leviathan dreadnaughts, spartans, Stormsurge and really anything that should actually be able to take some damage just gets point and delete. "
If it's a 400+ pt model, then it's in "Knight" territory.
If it's not a 400pt model, then Harlie Bikes aren't making their points back vs a Doomed target.

That's not to say that Harlie Bikes aren't going to make their points back, or that Doom isn't good. Or that some nerf isn't needed.

"Well if Eldar player's would stop putting everyone on a jetbike then maybe we can discuss foot seers.
M16 and an advance of 6 and trying to get with 24 inches while just outside of 24 inches of a psycher, denying is not happening."

Try it.
Place a JetSeer on the table. Place your bubblewrap 24" away from the JetSeeer. Place your Psyker behind your bubblewrap. Place your Knight behind the Pskyer. That JetSeer is not making it within 24" of the Knight but not the Psyker. The Knight has a larger base, but not that much larger.

"Yeah because a 6 inch range no invulnerable saves WC8 on a caster with no re rolls is comparable to DOOM's WC7 with reroll one or both dice."
Once again, nobody is saying that Null Zone is as powerful as Doom. We're saying that if all other debuffs have the same rule, Doom shouldn't get special treatment by way of a special rule. It'd be better to balance it other ways.

Then feel free to suggest something, at the moment your just saying no to everything and saying everyone else should just accept it and bend over for their eldar overlords for another edition.

As farseers costing more is apparently uncalled for(Questionable)
Making DOOM harder to cast (should be a 9at least) is unfluffy
Skyweavers costing more is uncalled for
Fixing the dumb interaction is apparently unfair unless we just start rewriting 4 other codex's for non problem interactions.

As to the trying it lets see Tau don't have any psychers to deny we just have to take it, so much good for the game fun.
Marines, yeah because you always have a couple of spare 100 point HQ's just milling around incase you need a deny, they suck enough without having to take more damn tax units.

The only 2 armies not really effected by this issue is Eldar and guard. One because they have the psychic and the - to hit shenanigans to screw it up, the other because when your only paying 75% of the points for the models you actually put on the table your going to have plenty left.