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Yeah, it's not just that there wouldn't be fifty guardsmen within 18".

It's that you have to arrange them within 12 inches of a small group.

Not to mention, there is another 4-5 of those squads hanging around, plus termies/command what have you.

Oh, don't forget the fear librarian who makes a large portion of your army run away to start with.
Or the fact that 4 bolters rapid firing will kill 3-4 guardsmen themselves, not to mention any flamers, assault cannons or stormbolters off of the termie squads.
If the libby doesn't fear you, he can set up on a side and take out dozens of guardsmen by drawing a line through them. Or maybe even a libby crossfire, one on each end.

Posted By DarkHellion on 06/30/2006 5:21 AM Or if you want to get marines into CC you could use things that don't move at the absolutely sluggish 6" per turn,

Indeed. However, that is beside the point. Perhaps I did not elucidate my train of thought precisly. I did not say that it [i.e. 48 lasguns rf-ing] happens all the time, or even on a regular basis. I also never said that Marines never get into cc. What I said (or meant) was that sometimes you need to cross that rf zone in order to do x or y. Otoh, I may well be wrong, perhaps all vets know workarounds. Or play BA. After all, you?re the expert.

Honestly, think about the geometrical difficulty of maneuvering 4' (over a meter for you metric types) worth of bases into 12" of a singular 5-10" long formation

Perhaps you think of every lasgun being in range of every model in the target unit but we never went into so much detail. (You were getting excited and throwing insults left, right and centre before we could get there). A very basic principle for any commander is to get as many guns as possible and necessary firing at a given target to ensure its demise. Of course it isn?t about exactly 48 lasguns all the time - that was figurative speech, a metapher. To this end, the OP?s list has not as many heavy weapons as I would like to have. The principle however extends to small arms, too.

The main problem, is even a favorable and unlikely number like 48 lasguns will not be able to cause that much damage. Especially to a termie heavy list.

Nice backpeddling Solar Plexus. You go from "the idea isn't that bad" and the idea that to get into close combat/rf range a Marine player would have to expose himself to that fire, which was mathematically proven to be both ineffective, and nearly impossible to achieve to "A very basic principle for any commander is to get as many guns as possible and necessary firing at a given target to ensure its demise" which still doesn't deal with the general idea the lasguns do not reliably inflict the necessary casualties to truly harm anything with better than T3 and a 5+ save.
The list is weak, and deserves no defense. I was harsh, but I have experience with these lists, I have done well with these lists, and I know the weaknesses of the list very well, and can thus serve as a very competant judge of the list against other tournament quality armies.

Posted By DarkHellion on 07/03/2006 6:00 PM
Nice backpeddling Solar Plexus.
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Hush, now you?re flattering me.

You go from "the idea isn't that bad"

The idea behind his list, the idea to have lots of warm bodies isn?t bad at all. The idea to focus fire isn?t bad at all.

and the idea that to get into close combat/rf range a Marine player would have to expose himself to that fire, which was mathematically proven to be both ineffective, and nearly impossible to achieve

I fancy reading is not one of your fortes. I was talking about the principle from the first post onwards. You mistakenly read ?the principle idea isn?t bad but needs a little tweaking? as ?LSP advocates always bringing exactly 48 lasguns into 12?.  That I feel  is a little different. Nowhere did I state that a Marine player *had* to expose himself. Instead I asked if that *could not* be the case theoretically. Yes, I see the massive advantages a drop podding army would have, and yes, a competent player would not do it. However, not every army has drop pods or is all bike-mounted. Or perhaps it is in your neck of the woods.

to "A very basic principle for any commander is to get as many guns as possible and necessary firing at a given target to ensure its demise" which still doesn't deal with the general idea the lasguns do not reliably inflict the necessary casualties to truly harm anything with better than T3 and a 5+ save.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Re-reading my posts I find that I advocated more heavy weapons ever since 1914. The point about lasguns is that you need them in some quantity if you intend to achieve something. Having lots of them (no, NOT exactly 48 ? I?m, working on an even simpler way to get this across!) direct their fire at any given target is much better than shooting them piecemeal or not at all. If that?s all to trivial for you and you cannot properly control your testosterone levels, go read something else.

Posted By DarkHellion 06/27/2006 3:39 PM
If the marine player is letting himself get shot with 48 lasguns at close range, he deserves to lose. Like I have said before, we assume competancy on the part of both players. I have seen lists very similar to his, and he suffers very much from a horrific lack of heavy weapons for his model numbers, and his idea that a bunch of 10 plus units are going to do anything when someone ties up a firing line squad with assault marines/raptors/scorpions/warp spiders/ravenors, etc. is laughable. It is a weak list, and when told so, he decided to become petulant. It's harsh advice to be told your list sucks, but you either provide good reasons why it doesn't or you change it. Acting dismissive isn't the way to handle it.

 

Wow. I go away for a while and your snobbery grew like coat hangers left in a dark closet. Petulant is it? Why should I take you seriously at all? If I wanted someone to say "Hey, that list sucks" I could have gone down to the local RT store and asked the first idiot I ran into. And the fact that you came second in a RTT just isn't impressive enough to warrant me paying attention to your dismissive crap. I'm sure you've all sorts of local tough guy stories to tell us all about how good you are, but you can save 'em.

 

Even the content of the above post is laughable really. On the one hand you criticize the size of the list, and how much real estate it takes up. Then you critcize it because it can't deal when HtH units hit the gun line. Did it even occur to you that 100 conscripts in two units actually might make it tough to get to the gun line in the first place? And you can throw most of the above units into a squad of 50 conscripts and they'll get mulched. If you want to whittle them down with shooting first go ahead, they're conscripts, shoot away. The Ld 10 conscripts act as a buffer for the FotD too, unless it's coming out of a pod. But so many armies get crushed by good FotD pod lists that I can't be too concerned about it.

 

The proposed list, which does need a different HW load-out (as you pointed out), has absolutely no hard targets to engage at range. None of the anti-tank is concentrated in units, and the anti-troop that is is cheap enough that it doesn't really matter. The basic tenet for the list was to eliminate any high point-cost units and to thus deny an opponent the ability to kill a high priced unit or two and then wait the game out. In a tournament environment, where 90% of armies are seriously tooled to kill marines, this list would be tough to deal with because most of those lists lack the neccessary weaponry to kill 200+ guard as quickly as they'd like. I also never said it was a killer-soopa-death sort of list either. I already play both a Mauleed-ish marine list and a Khornate demon bomb, so I've got the power gaming covered thanks.

 

Cheers

The only difference is the BS for IG is lower that SM's and the save is higher for the IG than a SM.

As a guard player it costs me 60 points to put one squad on the table without weapons so if I add a lascannon and a plasma gun that comes to 95 points for the squad. You may only have one conscrip platoon which would be 55 models if you went the max.

A command squad will cost me a minimum of 42 points and the max can be 250 if I trick out the 5 guys including the LT.

So I think it is more likely you will roll a hit about once out of every 3 tries which is lower with the guard just on the averages.

Warrior 50

I think you wopuld be better off taking carapace armor and lowering the number of models. This will get rid of some of the size factors of the army (i.e unweildy) and also help with survivability.

I keep thinking how much fun a couple of LR Crusaders would be against this army.

I did the maths on this when I started collecting guard.

3*6 las/plas marines = 345pts, and hits twice.

4*10 las/plas guard = 380pts and hits twice.

In practice las/plas (or just las) guard squads are good. So all this probably means is that las/plas marines are too cheap.

Hello boards,

Wow, and you guys would take all this time up over this topic. With all my years of exp, you just need to dbl what you have with guard to do what you do with marines. Then again you have a lot of items to factor in because each army has different toys and game play. I would just bury this topic and look at what you really want to do. If you need to hit, nab up some vets with bs of four and add a lascannon to the unit. Then again, do you really want to build a IG army that looks like a SM army?

Some of the post here just dont see the game play of your army. 230 men is a big chunck of troops and lot to deal with if you are a small army. Day I had X Marines on the board and the Eldar player gave me the game before we started. We had to play thou and it ended with me around 3k for being in his deployment zone. Plus the points for the units at half and full. Plus what I killed while I was on the move.  Just that the years of exp will often tell you how a game will play out before it starts.  He build his eldar army and did not forsee having to face this list. 230 man list is something that is not seen before the game plays out. You are either going to be able to face it head on and or start looking for cover.

I myself only put heavy bolters in my dev units. I just dont understand why somebody would put four missle laucher in a dev unit. The amount of points that you chew up and the fact that marines have a great bs that is wasted. If you are having problems with MEQ, get a power weopon and some assault gear. Really dont need four missle lauchers in a unit to drop one Russ tank do ya? Best of luck with your 230, just know that my army is balance and able to handle this list per what you posted before on armies able to handle list.