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the_scotsman wrote:

You still have not explained how deathwatch is somehow MORE required to take allies for antitank than any other imperial faction. They have the same access to anti tank natively that any space marine faction does, and in many instances the deathwatch option is better. Deathwatch, Admech, Sisters, guard, space marines, blood angels, and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery other imperial faction chooses to take allies for their anti tank not because their anti-tank options are particularly bad, but because IK anti-tank is particularly broken.

Did you really just argue that AdMech and Guard need AT help?

Yeah we're done here.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My favorite thing is Deathwatch players complaining about lack of access to Strength 9 platforms while the Sororitas beta codex has literally zero and that's not really a problem for them.

Give Deathwatch the capacity to put a third of their army in Melta range turn one and they likely wouldnt complain either. Besides, with the way AoFs got gutted the Sisters have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

 Crimson wrote:

I didn't. You did.

 Crimson wrote:
If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability...

Oh really?

Sterling191 wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

I didn't. You did.

 Crimson wrote:
If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability...

Oh really?

Yes, really. It was a response to this post of yours:

Sterling191 wrote:

Lets be clear about this, DW Chapter Tactic is a reroll of 1s to wound against a specific unit type, chosen before the game starts. That cannot be changed during the game without expending CP. Mission Tactics has its uses but you're wildly overstating its efficacy.

SIA makes Deathwatch some of the best chaff killers in the game. I'm not contesting that. In return their capacity to do anything meaningful against armored units is completely neutered.

It's a pretty crippling weakness when the priority targets on a board are Knights, Tank Commanders, and Ravagers.

So you brought it up.

zinch wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Mission Tactics is just a limited, board wide LT buff in an army that would absolutely love to save the HQ tax points by taking an LT...but can't.

Yeah, I've seen DW HQ are a little lackluster, but that doesn't mean that Mission Tactics is still better than some Chapter Tactics, so Lemondish point is still valid IMO.

Special Ammo is what makes Mission Tactics work, never the other way around. Which means...

There's simply no way you'd even trade even the weaker Chapter Tactics (like Iron Hands and White Scars) for Mission Tactics in a Vanilla Marine army if you had the option.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My favorite thing is Deathwatch players complaining about lack of access to Strength 9 platforms while the Sororitas beta codex has literally zero and that's not really a problem for them.

They complain about an overall lack of focused anti-tank, not S9. Frag Cannons are S9 below 12" after all, and they get LasBacks. Luckily FW exists but FW should be a compliment to the army, not a crutch for covering roles.

the_scotsman wrote:
...You still have not explained how deathwatch is somehow MORE required to take allies for antitank than any other imperial faction. They have the same access to anti tank natively that any space marine faction does, and in many instances the deathwatch option is better. Deathwatch, Admech, Sisters, guard, space marines, blood angels, and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery other imperial faction chooses to take allies for their anti tank not because their anti-tank options are particularly bad, but because IK anti-tank is particularly broken.

The core components of Space Marine anti-tank the Deathwatch don't have access to are lascannon Devastators (we have missile pseudo-Devastators and frag-cannon pseudo-Devastators, but the upgrade from S8/AP-2 to S9/AP-3 is tremendously relevant, the frag cannons require a delivery system and can be bubble-wrapped against, and neither pseudo-Devastator squad gets a model hitting on 2+ or a free bonus shot once per game) and the Lieutenant (Mission Tactics makes up for the Lieutenant if all the tanks on the field have the same Battlefield Role and none of them are Dedicated Transports, because someone forgot to include "Dedicated Transport" in the things Mission Tactics gives rerolls against).

But while it is certainly true that the Deathwatch don't need allies for credible anti-tank, it is also true that the Deathwatch do not have the anti-armour tools to deal with T8-skew and thus are hard-countered by someone who brings multiple Imperial Knights without either allies or Forge World.

They can ally in a Castallan. Nuff said.

Staying within DW, it's all about drednoughts. We don't have any tanks that can cut it at the top table.

I'm of the opinion that DW are going to have a big impact on the new meta. Their 10-man vets are truly brutal when combined with a Watchmaster. Primaris DW have fallen way behind now.

Sterling191 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

You still have not explained how deathwatch is somehow MORE required to take allies for antitank than any other imperial faction. They have the same access to anti tank natively that any space marine faction does, and in many instances the deathwatch option is better. Deathwatch, Admech, Sisters, guard, space marines, blood angels, and eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevery other imperial faction chooses to take allies for their anti tank not because their anti-tank options are particularly bad, but because IK anti-tank is particularly broken.

Did you really just argue that AdMech and Guard need AT help?

Yeah we're done here.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My favorite thing is Deathwatch players complaining about lack of access to Strength 9 platforms while the Sororitas beta codex has literally zero and that's not really a problem for them.

Give Deathwatch the capacity to put a third of their army in Melta range turn one and they likely wouldnt complain either. Besides, with the way AoFs got gutted the Sisters have bigger fish to fry at the moment.

 Crimson wrote:

I didn't. You did.

 Crimson wrote:
If you're playing pure Primaris, they have the exact same tank killing capability...

Oh really?

Did I "argue" that guard and admech need at help?

no. Read the fething post you quoted. I said they CHOOSE to take the castellan as their anti-tank just like EVERY IMPERIUM ARMY currently chooses to take the castellan. Because it is head and shoulders better than everything else.

You have yet to provide any evidence whatsoever as to why in a world where every imperium list uses the castellan for their anti-tank, one faction is "required" to use it, while another just "chooses" to use it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

zinch wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Mission Tactics is just a limited, board wide LT buff in an army that would absolutely love to save the HQ tax points by taking an LT...but can't.

Yeah, I've seen DW HQ are a little lackluster, but that doesn't mean that Mission Tactics is still better than some Chapter Tactics, so Lemondish point is still valid IMO.

Special Ammo is what makes Mission Tactics work, never the other way around. Which means...

There's simply no way you'd even trade even the weaker Chapter Tactics (like Iron Hands and White Scars) for Mission Tactics in a Vanilla Marine army if you had the option.

I would take Mission Tactics with the option of changing it for 1CP/2CP than the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic any day of the week.

On a related matter: I've made a little mathhammer and a "Codex" Intercessor should cost 11 points to present a similar damage per point ratio than DW intercessors against a wide variety of targets. Make it 12-13 points for the extra survivality the extra bodies represent. I think this ilustrates how ridiculous the comparison between bolter armed "Codex" SM with DW ones is...

zinch wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

zinch wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 godardc wrote:
Isn't SIA the DW version of CT too ? So even at 0 points it wouldn't be free

No. They also have those things that give rerolls against certain unit types. And SIA is crazy powerful, no chapter tactic gives such an insane buff in offensive power. Marines being kinda bad hides the magnitude of the buff, but it feels unfair to non-DW marines.

Mission Tactics is just a limited, board wide LT buff in an army that would absolutely love to save the HQ tax points by taking an LT...but can't.

Yeah, I've seen DW HQ are a little lackluster, but that doesn't mean that Mission Tactics is still better than some Chapter Tactics, so Lemondish point is still valid IMO.

Special Ammo is what makes Mission Tactics work, never the other way around. Which means...

There's simply no way you'd even trade even the weaker Chapter Tactics (like Iron Hands and White Scars) for Mission Tactics in a Vanilla Marine army if you had the option.

I would take Mission Tactics with the option of changing it for 1CP/2CP than the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic any day of the week.

On a related matter: I've made a little mathhammer and a "Codex" Intercessor should cost 11 points to present a similar damage per point ratio than DW intercessors against a wide variety of targets. Make it 12-13 points for the extra survivality the extra bodies represent. I think this ilustrates how ridiculous the comparison between bolter armed "Codex" SM with DW ones is...

I know you're just being contrarian because you would lose the relevant part of the Fly keyword for it, and Deathwatch will take a specific model in their squads just to avoid that pitfall.