Switch Theme:

6 USR that needs to be added to the BRB or many Datasheets  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




 Lord Clinto wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
what about this, there should be a difference between cover & concealment;

concealment, -1 to hit
cover, +1 to save

that way you can always at least have one or the other. i.e.

a model behind a barricade can be shot at with no negative to hit, but would gain +1 to a save.

a model on the other side of a crater/woods/ruins would be shot at with -1 to but with no modifier to the save.

a model in the first floor of ruins would be shot at with a -1 to hit and gain a +1 to their save.

if you're within 1" or base contact with the terrain you would gain -1 to be hit. if you're completely within (all models)would also gain +1 to save even if you are not completely obscured from the shooter.

vehicles could be treated the same way but would retain the 50% rule currently. anything with mc/knight/etc keyword would only gain +1 to save as they're supposedly very large and wouldn't be as able to be concealed as something smaller. maybe if you have x # of models (10+) it could remove the cover save as there might not be enough room to dive for cover with too many bodies occupying a small space.


IMO This suggestion makes the most sense; would it bog the game down? Maybe a little bit, but I think it makes more sense then the current rule set.

Additionally I think there needs to be more of a penalty for falling back. Something similar to Dangerous Terrain; where if you fall back roll a die for each model falling back, on a 6 the unit suffers a Mortal Wound.


This suggestion makes the most sense and is basically what is in the new Cityfight rules from CA2018, I encourage you to try them out. They work...okay, in my opinion. terrain and maneuver definitely feels more impactful. The problem comes from how utterly unshiftable units on upper floors of ruins become with -1 to hit and +2 to save AND the stupid cluster of FAQ rulings GW has put out to make units on upper floors totally unassaultable.
   
Made in fi
Furious Raptor



Finland

the_scotsman wrote:
This suggestion makes the most sense and is basically what is in the new Cityfight rules from CA2018, I encourage you to try them out. They work...okay, in my opinion. terrain and maneuver definitely feels more impactful. The problem comes from how utterly unshiftable units on upper floors of ruins become with -1 to hit and +2 to save AND the stupid cluster of FAQ rulings GW has put out to make units on upper floors totally unassaultable.
Well, we do love GW method of balancing where broken combos are fixed with hardcore core rule updates: 'Rule of 3', 'Increased Detachment CP generation', 'Smite', 'FLY restrictions', 'Deep strike restrictions'.

Basically any problematic thing appears they take the 'easy route' and slap this quick band aid fix that stops the broken combo but suddenly restricts x10 amount of other similarly working non-broken combos. There were many legitimately non-broken things that could be done with 1st turn deep strikes, but the worst offenders took the fun from every other thing the earlier rule allowed.
   
Made in us
Secretive Dark Angels Veteran





There needs to be more -hits and +saves during shooting attack to balance out the ranged/melee situation in 40k.

The general pro/cons of ranged vs melee is that you deal less damage from a far at lower rate vs deal more damage but must be up close deal.

If 40k will never fix the power discrepancy between ranged and melee, then it should deal with accuracy instead:
-if ranged, you are more prone to missing but deal damage from safe distance
-if melee, you miss less but must be up close to deal the damage
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





The entire reason to move away from USR's is so they could customise the rules to fit the unit. It allows Monoliths and Spore Mines to have a 12" limit and the Callidus Assassin a 9-D6" limit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 13:27:38


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




In My Lab

 BaconCatBug wrote:
The entire reason to move away from USR's is so they could customise the rules to fit the unit. It allows Monoliths and Spore Mines to have a 12" limit and the Callidus Assassin a 9-D6" limit.


Terminators get:

Deep Strike (9")-Teleportation Strike
Rules text of Deep Strike with 9"; fluff text.

Monoliths get:

Deep Strike (12")-Death From Above or whatever it's called
Rules text of Deep Strike with 12"; fluff text.

Callidus gets:

Deep Strike (Special)-Infiltration or whatever it's called
Rules text of Deep Strike with 9"-1d6"; fluff text.

Boom, bam, done. I'm fine with printing the full text of the rules on the datasheet, but it'd be nice if the names were consistent.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Ghorgul wrote:
Many 'Deep Strike' abilities are USR's in general sense but every unit has different name for the rule with same mechanism with similar restrictions.


And this is why the keyword system is an abject failure.
   
Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




Ghorgul wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:
This suggestion makes the most sense and is basically what is in the new Cityfight rules from CA2018, I encourage you to try them out. They work...okay, in my opinion. terrain and maneuver definitely feels more impactful. The problem comes from how utterly unshiftable units on upper floors of ruins become with -1 to hit and +2 to save AND the stupid cluster of FAQ rulings GW has put out to make units on upper floors totally unassaultable.
Well, we do love GW method of balancing where broken combos are fixed with hardcore core rule updates: 'Rule of 3', 'Increased Detachment CP generation', 'Smite', 'FLY restrictions', 'Deep strike restrictions'.

Basically any problematic thing appears they take the 'easy route' and slap this quick band aid fix that stops the broken combo but suddenly restricts x10 amount of other similarly working non-broken combos. There were many legitimately non-broken things that could be done with 1st turn deep strikes, but the worst offenders took the fun from every other thing the earlier rule allowed.


I love that this thread has become simultaneously a thread complaining about how we can't have universal rules anymore and everything has to have its own name for the rule, AND a thread complaining about how GW always balances with a sledgehammer that affects tons of units at once with a big blanket pass.

Pick one, guys. Either every unit has its own balance levers, or you balance everything at once in one swell foop.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 14:31:22


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




The names don't matter. how stuff works matters. It can be deep strike 9" or deep strike 3". or be called deep strike and superior infiltration. what matters is how it affects the game and units that have those traits.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 JNAProductions wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
The entire reason to move away from USR's is so they could customise the rules to fit the unit. It allows Monoliths and Spore Mines to have a 12" limit and the Callidus Assassin a 9-D6" limit.


Terminators get:

Deep Strike (9")-Teleportation Strike
Rules text of Deep Strike with 9"; fluff text.

Monoliths get:

Deep Strike (12")-Death From Above or whatever it's called
Rules text of Deep Strike with 12"; fluff text.

Callidus gets:

Deep Strike (Special)-Infiltration or whatever it's called
Rules text of Deep Strike with 9"-1d6"; fluff text.

Boom, bam, done. I'm fine with printing the full text of the rules on the datasheet, but it'd be nice if the names were consistent.
And then what? Explodes becomes Explodes x+, x", x MW? Now you look at the datasheet and have no idea what Explodes does unless you open up the rulebook. The whole point of 8th was to make as much on the datasheet as possible and avoid the USR Hell of the past.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/08 14:50:04


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




In My Lab

Did you miss the part where I said:

"I'm fine with printing the full text of the rules on the datasheet, but it'd be nice if the names were consistent."

And yes, Explodes could easily be Explodes (6+, 3", 1d3 MW) for a Rhino, for instance.

That way, the name alone gives experienced players all they need to know, while the newer players can read the text that's printed just below.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Or you just have one exploded rule for everything like in previous editions and not bother with special snowflakes having slight and mostly irrelevant variations.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Peregrine wrote:
Or you just have one exploded rule for everything like in previous editions and not bother with special snowflakes having slight and mostly irrelevant variations.


I like this, except some models should have a bigger, badder explosion, like some of the fortifications.

15k+ 12k+ 5k :Harlequin: 4k

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Hard to miss: If a unit/model has 20 or more wounds, all shooting weapons targeting the unit/model gain +1 to hit.


Bring back the "medium" stuff. Give a mini-nerf to the opposing extremes of hordes/super-heavies.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/08 19:46:32


 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 Peregrine wrote:
Or you just have one exploded rule for everything like in previous editions and not bother with special snowflakes having slight and mostly irrelevant variations.
You know draughts is a thing, right? Since you seem to be opposed to any and all difference between units. Or do you think Knights shouldn't be able to jump pieces in chess because that's a slight and mostly irrelevant variation? Peregrine Chess: Everyone gets 8 Pawns and NOTHING ELSE.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/08 20:24:30


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 BaconCatBug wrote:
We tried USRs. They didn't work for a reason.


I think you need to go find another windmill to tilt at because several other games out there that use USRs can tell you you're objectively wrong.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die." 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





East Bay, Ca, US

How does a thread with awful suggestions keep running?

Answer: Argument about USRs begins.

 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Marmatag wrote:
How does a thread with awful suggestions keep running?

Answer: Argument about USRs begins.


Even if rules are on datasheets, they still are USR, all datasheets with a DS abilities are 99% the same, all FnP is the same (either 5+ or 6+) all Supersonic is the same.

Rather you like it or not, but USR are a must for games, 8th just put 99% of them on datasheets instead of in the BRB.

15k+ 12k+ 5k :Harlequin: 4k

Reading/Writing LD, be kind!

https://maddpaint.blogspot.com 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
How does a thread with awful suggestions keep running?

Answer: Argument about USRs begins.


Even if rules are on datasheets, they still are USR, all datasheets with a DS abilities are 99% the same, all FnP is the same (either 5+ or 6+) all Supersonic is the same.

Rather you like it or not, but USR are a must for games, 8th just put 99% of them on datasheets instead of in the BRB.
Considering that not all FNP is the same (some are conditional) and not all supersonic is the same (Eldar have their own special version), you've just proved my point.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





 Grimtuff wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
We tried USRs. They didn't work for a reason.


I think you need to go find another windmill to tilt at because several other games out there that use USRs can tell you you're objectively wrong.


Templates bad!
USR bad!
Model conversions bad!
Loyal 32 good!
Soup good!
6 books to play one “army” good!


40k is in a sad place these days.
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
How does a thread with awful suggestions keep running?

Answer: Argument about USRs begins.


Even if rules are on datasheets, they still are USR, all datasheets with a DS abilities are 99% the same, all FnP is the same (either 5+ or 6+) all Supersonic is the same.

Rather you like it or not, but USR are a must for games, 8th just put 99% of them on datasheets instead of in the BRB.
Considering that not all FNP is the same (some are conditional) and not all supersonic is the same (Eldar have their own special version), you've just proved my point.


Considering the vast majority of those rules could be written in a sentence or two in the rules, I'm wondering what your point is.

FNP example: When a model in this unit is damaged, roll a die for each point of damage. For each die that equals or exceeds the FNP stat, ignore one point of damage. If a specific type of damage is listed, this unit's FNP only reduces damage of that type.

That covers 99% of the FNP style special rules.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 03:49:49


 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





Until you get rules that now ignore FNP, which leads to special rules that are FNP but not really so they get to ignore those rules that ignore FNP.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




USRs would work if they were actually universal. Until then they're just some rules that may or may not apply to your specific case but you have to go looking for it anyway.
Maybe a lot of you liked them, but I really did not, especially when I was new to the game. The new system is far easier to understand and use imo.
   
Made in us
Plaguelord Titan Princeps of Nurgle




In My Lab

Dandelion wrote:
USRs would work if they were actually universal. Until then they're just some rules that may or may not apply to your specific case but you have to go looking for it anyway.
Maybe a lot of you liked them, but I really did not, especially when I was new to the game. The new system is far easier to understand and use imo.


Question: Would it be any harder to remember, say, Manta Strike, Teleportation Strike, Low-Altitude Deployment, and Death From Above if they were all labeled "Deep Strike (X")"?

Because no one, to my knowledge, has suggested removing the text of the rules from the datasheet. It's fine to keep it there-it helps beginners a lot, and is even helpful for more experienced players when they need a reminder. But what's the issue with codifying rules names?

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 JNAProductions wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
USRs would work if they were actually universal. Until then they're just some rules that may or may not apply to your specific case but you have to go looking for it anyway.
Maybe a lot of you liked them, but I really did not, especially when I was new to the game. The new system is far easier to understand and use imo.


Question: Would it be any harder to remember, say, Manta Strike, Teleportation Strike, Low-Altitude Deployment, and Death From Above if they were all labeled "Deep Strike (X")"?

Because no one, to my knowledge, has suggested removing the text of the rules from the datasheet. It's fine to keep it there-it helps beginners a lot, and is even helpful for more experienced players when they need a reminder. But what's the issue with codifying rules names?
Because it's boring? Why make give Storm Bolters and Combi-Bolters different names? Why bother having Lasguns or Autoguns? The game has already been stripped to the bone of any and all complexity, is dealing with a few different rule names so difficult? Like you said, the rule is on the datasheet, so why does it matter what the rule name is? Also, calling it "Deep Strike (X")" suggests that they are always uniform, it's bad enough that Explodes is muddied as it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/09 04:38:00


Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 JNAProductions wrote:
Dandelion wrote:
USRs would work if they were actually universal. Until then they're just some rules that may or may not apply to your specific case but you have to go looking for it anyway.
Maybe a lot of you liked them, but I really did not, especially when I was new to the game. The new system is far easier to understand and use imo.


Question: Would it be any harder to remember, say, Manta Strike, Teleportation Strike, Low-Altitude Deployment, and Death From Above if they were all labeled "Deep Strike (X")"?

Because no one, to my knowledge, has suggested removing the text of the rules from the datasheet. It's fine to keep it there-it helps beginners a lot, and is even helpful for more experienced players when they need a reminder. But what's the issue with codifying rules names?


I do recall some people arguing for removing the rules from the actual datasheets, but it's been a while so my memory might be faulty. Regardless, I don't really see much benefit to labeling those rules as "deep strike" anyway. What I'm more worried about is having "deep strike" be a USR, and then throwing down some exceptions. If you know there will inevitably be exceptions why bother setting up a "universal" system at all?

Though, have you (or anyone you know) had any trouble with the format for these special rules? Have they been hard to use or something? If you're suggesting changing them, what's so bad about them now?
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 BaconCatBug wrote:
Until you get rules that now ignore FNP, which leads to special rules that are FNP but not really so they get to ignore those rules that ignore FNP.


So now we're just adding two new USR's. Or just two special rules to a unit/weapon/army/datasheet.
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss





 Mmmpi wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Until you get rules that now ignore FNP, which leads to special rules that are FNP but not really so they get to ignore those rules that ignore FNP.


So now we're just adding two new USR's. Or just two special rules to a unit/weapon/army/datasheet.
You seriously don't see the issues that the USR hell we had in previous editions?

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. 
   
Made in us
Witch Hunter Undercover in a Cult







 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Until you get rules that now ignore FNP, which leads to special rules that are FNP but not really so they get to ignore those rules that ignore FNP.


So now we're just adding two new USR's. Or just two special rules to a unit/weapon/army/datasheet.
You seriously don't see the issues that the USR hell we had in previous editions?


USRs weren't a problem in 4e, when there were two pages of them. USRs were a problem in 7e, when there were twenty pages of them and a bunch of them only existed to reference each other.

Victoria est autem vita.

Stories at https://knightofthegrey.wordpress.com/
Game-related musings at https://thescenicdetour.wordpress.com/
Both updated irregularly 
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Mmmpi wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Until you get rules that now ignore FNP, which leads to special rules that are FNP but not really so they get to ignore those rules that ignore FNP.


So now we're just adding two new USR's. Or just two special rules to a unit/weapon/army/datasheet.
You seriously don't see the issues that the USR hell we had in previous editions?


USRs weren't a problem in 4e, when there were two pages of them. USRs were a problem in 7e, when there were twenty pages of them and a bunch of them only existed to reference each other.


I also play several games that are almost entirely USR's and they work great. Just because they were implemented poorly for the last couple of editions doesn't make them bad in concept.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






But if you have USRs you don't have to write a bunch of separate versions of every rule, decreasing the chances that you make a mistake in over-literal RAW. And how could you not feel bad about taking away BCB's signature material?

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: