Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Voltan wrote:
But why do people say Dorn was the nicest he comes across as ill tempered and doesn’t seem to care for mortals also the flight of the eisenstein scene.

Yeah, I have no idea where it came from. He was stubborn, arrogant, blunt, inflexible and lacked tact of any kind. If he was nice (or could at least offer white lie in the name of keeping better ties with others) it's possible Perturabo would stay loyal and Black Templars wouldn't be such basket case today. Hell, best way to describe him would be 'lawful stupid' (one of FW Heresy books even says he engaged in assassination war with agents of Malcador out of sheer pride and attempts to be in charge of everything like he felt he deserved) or something similar, but nice?

 Irbis wrote:
...(one of FW Heresy books even says he engaged in assassination war with agents of Malcador out of sheer pride and attempts to be in charge of everything like he felt he deserved) or something similar, but nice?

I hadn't heard that one before... I knew he and Malcador butted heads because Malcador wasn't afraid to speak his mind when he thought the emperor was wrong, but I didn't know he went as far as to assassinate Malcador's agents. Ironically, the emperor had more respect for Malcador than Dorn, regardless of Dorn's blind loyalty that he thought put him above his brothers.

At the best Dorn could be described as a bluntly honest, but gruff loyalist. At the worst he could be described as a stubborn, arrogant, gloryhog who was downright rude to everyone around him and had little respect for anyone except himself and the emperor. So yeah, Dorn was a lot of things but "nice" was not one of them.

Poor Corvus always gets forgotten when talking of the nicest Primarchs. Roboute was nice. Sangyboi too. Vulkan was totally fam. But Corax was also a nice guy to have around even if a bit emo and sad, but he cared about both ideals and people. And seemed to be way more flexible than most of the others.

According to 1D4chan, Dorn scores a very middling eight on the douchebagginess scale.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
According to 1D4chan, Dorn scores a very middling eight on the douchebagginess scale.

I disagree with that list entirely. Magnus, Russ, and Dorn should be higher, Russ especially. Fulgrim, and a few others should be lower. A lot of the traitors seem to be judged after they turned rather than before, which I think is unfair.

w1zard wrote:
...A lot of the traitors seem to be judged after they turned rather than before, which I think is unfair.

Why?

 Ginjitzu wrote:

w1zard wrote:
...A lot of the traitors seem to be judged after they turned rather than before, which I think is unfair.

Why?

Because after they turned they are under the influence of and have been corrupted totally by chaos. Unless you want to make the argument that the chaos versions of the Primarchs were secretly who they were all along and they were just lying and hiding who they really were, which I don't think is the case, ESPECIALLY for example... say Fulgrim. Chaos and events leading up to the Horus Heresy CHANGED these guys, and not for the better.

Only a few like Angron and Curze resembled anything like how they were before they fell to chaos.

Most of the Traitors would have been an issue at some point even without organized heresy.

Lorgar fell willingly because he needed something to worship. He could not and would not accept the Emperors vision.

Angron and Kurze were both living on borrowed time and Angron not getting put down right away was always a foolish decision.

Pert might have rebelled eventually due to his obsession with perceived slights and nasty rivalry with Dorn. Plus nuking his home world.

Magnus was never going to have a happy ending due to his arrogance and refusal to believe that he didn't know what he was doing when it came to the warp.

Horus, Fulgrim and Mort are probably the only ones who would have been fine

As for the Alpha twins, not touching that with a ten foot pole.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Most of the Traitors would have been an issue at some point even without organized heresy.

*Some*

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Lorgar fell willingly because he needed something to worship. He could not and would not accept the Emperors vision.

Lorgar fell because the emperor humiliated him for his beliefs, and because the emperor lied to everyone (even the primarchs) about the existence of the chaos gods.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron and Kurze were both living on borrowed time and Angron not getting put down right away was always a foolish decision.

On this I can agree. Angron thought of the emperor as little more than another "master" to fight for, who demanded death and blood just like his old masters.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Pert might have rebelled eventually due to his obsession with perceived slights and nasty rivalry with Dorn. Plus nuking his home world.

Perturabo wouldn't have rebelled at all had some very simple measures been taken. All the emperor needed to do was give him the job of building the Imperial Palace on Terra instead of Dorn... or something similar. The emperor was too shortsighted to see that Perturabo was a scientist and philosopher, not a general. Using him as a glorified battle computer, giving him all of the worst assignments, and never giving him any credit is what turned him, and it was easily avoidable.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Magnus was never going to have a happy ending due to his arrogance and refusal to believe that he didn't know what he was doing when it came to the warp.

I disagree. Magnus could have easily been one of the emperor's greatest allies, if the emperor trusted him enough to show him the true nature of the warp and WHY it was so dangerous. Instead, the emperor simply told him "don't mess with this stuff" and trusted that he wouldn't be too curious or arrogant to explore anyway, which goes to show how awful a judge of character the emperor was.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Horus, Fulgrim and Mort are probably the only ones who would have been fine.

Horus and Fulgrim only turned because of daemonic possession. Mortarion was similar to Angron in that he secretly resented the emperor because in his eyes, the emperor "stole" the victory over his foster father from him. I think it was only a matter of time before Mortarion rebelled as well.