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Biggest downside I noticed is that the Caladius has gone from a Fast Attack to a Heavy. I guess they would just be too good to have as FA.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Biggest downside I noticed is that the Caladius has gone from a Fast Attack to a Heavy. I guess they would just be too good to have as FA.

FWIW, it means less spots in the Fast Attack slot for both Bikers and the Jump Pack dudes I guess. Not that the latter is any good, but now we almost get around the Rule Of Three with Bikers now so...

Huh, I just noticed that the Terminators have access to 12-inch range flamers. Flamers that are strength 6. Interesting. I haven't done the math on it, but could this help us with our lack of Anti-flier firepower in addition to anti-chaff?

Yeah those guys are nasty but at 80+ points apiece not cheap.

Still 6 guys with 12" str 6 -1ap flamers and str 10 powerfists deep striking into your backfield is pretty scary.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Huh, I just noticed that the Terminators have access to 12-inch range flamers. Flamers that are strength 6. Interesting. I haven't done the math on it, but could this help us with our lack of Anti-flier firepower in addition to anti-chaff?

I have done the math. They'll kill 7 GEQ or 3.5 MEQ on average.

I don't think that's very exciting for their huge point cost, not efficient as chaff clear.

12" flamers sound exciting until you realise they're on a model with BS 2+, making auto hits not that amazing.

They're ok defensively though, it's a nasty overwatch to deal with.

Comparing the HH rules for the Venatari to the 40k rules, I wonder why each of their ranged weapon options lost a point of strength in the transition (down from S7 to S6).

yeah but don't forget with 4 wounds apiece and 2+/4++ in a pure custodies detachment, they are pretty durable as well.

They seem like an extremely potent backfield sweeper.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
yeah but don't forget with 4 wounds apiece and 2+/4++ in a pure custodies detachment, they are pretty durable as well.

They seem like an extremely potent backfield sweeper.

I suppose compared to Allarus custodians they aren't too bad. They'll do more with the Firepikes than Allarus will with their bolt weapons. But Allarus are pretty poor, so not sure how relevant that comparison is.

I'd mayne give them a shot for fun if the models themselves weren't so expensive.

 WindstormSCR wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
With the rules released, I wouldn't be surprised that you could easily crate a Brigade detachment within 2000pts

Of course it wouldn't be optimised or super effective, but imagine all the stats you could do!

unfortunately not. minimum brigade is now 2403: https://puu.sh/CCdfr/d4c0db4019.png

Also, Battlescribe is updated and awaiting appspot to pick up the release.

Anyone who makes an issue about the new beta rules being missing will get godstruck into the sun.

Why would you ever run a brigade? 2 Battalions gives you 10CP and they are much cheaper with a lot less requirements.

 Stux wrote:

 Eihnlazer wrote:
yeah but don't forget with 4 wounds apiece and 2+/4++ in a pure custodies detachment, they are pretty durable as well.

They seem like an extremely potent backfield sweeper.

I suppose compared to Allarus custodians they aren't too bad. They'll do more with the Firepikes than Allarus will with their bolt weapons. But Allarus are pretty poor, so not sure how relevant that comparison is.

I'd mayne give them a shot for fun if the models themselves weren't so expensive.

Allarus looks much nicer than (IMO) ugly Aquilons, and you could easily mitigate the price a lot by grabbing the Allarus, sticking them on 50 mm bases, and giving them all the termie heavy flamer bits no one used since the start of 8th edition with matching power fists, done. Ditto with Sagittarum, why pay for ugly resin when Primaris bolters are conveniently the same size. One simple conversion later in both cases and you have pretty much the same thing, and even anti-FW Warhammer stores can't whine anymore as it's 100% GW plastic...

I think the main selling point of using Aquillon terminators instead of Allarus is that the Allarus need a shield captain/Trajaan while the Aquillon terminators don't.

Auto hit flamers and their unique lightening claw means no need to have a reroll for either shooting or for failed wounds. Allarus are the anti armour while the Aquillon literally shred hordes.

Obviously they are pricey, but it's failing wound rolls on 2+ when backline deepstriking into units is incredibly galling.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I think the main selling point of using Aquillon terminators instead of Allarus is that the Allarus need a shield captain/Trajaan while the Aquillon terminators don't.

Auto hit flamers and their unique lightening claw means no need to have a reroll for either shooting or for failed wounds. Allarus are the anti armour while the Aquillon literally shred hordes.

Obviously they are pricey, but it's failing wound rolls on 2+ when backline deepstriking into units is incredibly galling.

They really don't shred hoardes, theyre extremely inefficient at it.

They clear 28pts of Guardsmen a turn in shooting. That's an absolutely poultry amount of their base cost.

 Stux wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I think the main selling point of using Aquillon terminators instead of Allarus is that the Allarus need a shield captain/Trajaan while the Aquillon terminators don't.

Auto hit flamers and their unique lightening claw means no need to have a reroll for either shooting or for failed wounds. Allarus are the anti armour while the Aquillon literally shred hordes.

Obviously they are pricey, but it's failing wound rolls on 2+ when backline deepstriking into units is incredibly galling.

They really don't shred hoardes, theyre extremely inefficient at it.

They clear 28pts of Guardsmen a turn in shooting. That's an absolutely poultry amount of their base cost.

If you are going to sit and shoot with Custodes then you are playing them completely wrong. You know damn well that you are going into combat with Custodes so to just say "their shooting won't clear hordes" is a silly argument.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I think the main selling point of using Aquillon terminators instead of Allarus is that the Allarus need a shield captain/Trajaan while the Aquillon terminators don't.

Auto hit flamers and their unique lightening claw means no need to have a reroll for either shooting or for failed wounds. Allarus are the anti armour while the Aquillon literally shred hordes.

Obviously they are pricey, but it's failing wound rolls on 2+ when backline deepstriking into units is incredibly galling.

They really don't shred hoardes, theyre extremely inefficient at it.

They clear 28pts of Guardsmen a turn in shooting. That's an absolutely poultry amount of their base cost.

If you are going to sit and shoot with Custodes then you are playing them completely wrong. You know damn well that you are going into combat with Custodes so to just say "their shooting won't clear hordes" is a silly argument.

Fine. They don't have enough attacks for their points to be effective against hordes either. They will just get tarpitted.

Aquillon Terminators with their base fist and lastrum storm bolter aren't too bad. Heck their actually cheaper than Allarus with an ax.

I do like the idea of them with twin adrathic destructors, deepstriking in with a Termy Shield captain for the reroll to hit.

 Stux wrote:
Fine. They don't have enough attacks for their points to be effective against hordes either. They will just get tarpitted.

Right, but literally nothing does. A bike only shoots and kills 20-24pts of Guardsmen. A single 90pt bike averages 9 guardsmen with rapid fire and a charge, which isnt even half the cost of said bike. Aquilon admittedly do worse, but point is nothing in the book clears hordes anyway.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I think the main selling point of using Aquillon terminators instead of Allarus is that the Allarus need a shield captain/Trajaan while the Aquillon terminators don't.

Auto hit flamers and their unique lightening claw means no need to have a reroll for either shooting or for failed wounds. Allarus are the anti armour while the Aquillon literally shred hordes.

Obviously they are pricey, but it's failing wound rolls on 2+ when backline deepstriking into units is incredibly galling.

I quite like this idea with them, the firepikes work well in this regard. They're not awesome, they're gonna be a bit awkward to use, but if you can get in a couple turns where they get to play in both the shooting and assault phases, I think Aquilons will pull their weight. I don't think they're worth it with the other ranged weapons however without additional support.


On the topic of their looks, I dig the Aquilon's more than the Allarus, they're based on older HH Custodes artwork that's been floating around since at least 4E and they're exactly what I always imagined.

The Sagittarum secondary fire mode is largely pointless (unless I'm missing something), I was hoping they'd just do like a combimelta or something, S5 AP-3 D3 with a MW drawback just doesn't have much application next to an Assault 3 Heavy Bolter, the Bolter is almost always going to be better and in the few cases it's not the alternate fire mode is only going to be very slightly better without any justification for a drawback. I do think Misericordia are mandatory on these guys to get the most out of them if I'm reading their entry right, but I like them overall.

Venatari Custodians feel a bit expensive. Not unusable, but that 3+ changes a lot about their resiliency even with the speed and the Kinetic Destroyer being a solid weapon, I think they should be closer to 40 than 50.

All the vehicles are looking good.

Rinion wrote:

 Stux wrote:
Fine. They don't have enough attacks for their points to be effective against hordes either. They will just get tarpitted.

Right, but literally nothing does. A bike only shoots and kills 20-24pts of Guardsmen. A single 90pt bike averages 9 guardsmen with rapid fire and a charge, which isnt even half the cost of said bike. Aquilon admittedly do worse, but point is nothing in the book clears hordes anyway.

Lots of stuff have a way better points efficiency at clearing hordes. I'm sorry Aquilons are just quite poor in this role.

Let's assume they shoot and then charge some Guardsmen. Each Aquilon with Firepike will kill 5.2 Guardsmen on average, shooting and fight combined. That's 20.8pts of Guard, or 24% of the cost of the Aquilon.

To compare, an Intercessor will kill 1.3 Guardsmen if it shoots and fights, on average. That's 5.3pts of Guardsmen, or 31% of the cost of the Intercessor.

You can't say a unit that is less efficient than a bog standard Primaris marine is good at horde clear.

"Literally nothing does". No, almost everything is better at it.

Sagittarum would have been work a look, if they were troops, or had some special rules that makes them pull out more dakka from their bolters. Could be a contender for objective hugging and shooting.

 Stux wrote:

To compare, an Intercessor will kill 1.3 Guardsmen if it shoots and fights, on average. That's 5.3pts of Guardsmen, or 31% of the cost of the Intercessor.

Custodes can take Intercessors now? I must have missed that.

That’s why we have the beta email. Tell them this stuff isn’t good and should be better.

 Darkseid wrote:
Sagittarum would have been work a look, if they were troops, or had some special rules that makes them pull out more dakka from their bolters. Could be a contender for objective hugging and shooting.

 Stux wrote:

To compare, an Intercessor will kill 1.3 Guardsmen if it shoots and fights, on average. That's 5.3pts of Guardsmen, or 31% of the cost of the Intercessor.

Custodes can take Intercessors now? I must have missed that.

So long as they're in different detachments it's totally legal

My point is, as if I need to stress it more, they are worse horde clear than a unit that is not especially good at horde clear.

I am not sure if I agree with the direction they took the Telemon in. A price drop is certainly not going to be rejected, but 'make it more fragile, deal less damage and be cheaper in return' feels like a strange direction to take for a *Custodes* model - let alone probably the beefiest dreadnought in Warhammer.

Also hi guys I'm back.