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If the point count was limited to say 500, 750, or 1000, do MEQ become viable?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




It's not points that screw marines bad so much as that many factions can bring a ton of high strength low ap weapons that make much of what a MEQ is paying for redundant. Who cares if my data sheet has T4 3+ with good shooting and fighting stats, if in game they ultimately end up dying as easily as guardsmen. The game is currently trying to be to many things at once, and unless players agree to modify or limit what they will take to a game, way to many units and options become irrelevant.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Karol wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Karol wrote:
What is worse then marines then?

500pts is 2 squads of troops and a bad HQ. Can't take any of the good ones, if the no units over 200pts rule is in effect.
21 stormbolters, 2 baby smites. not sure how much 500pts is in orcs or IG, but it seems like 500pts of GK would not be enough. could be wrong though, no one here plays less then 2000pts.


GK.

Infact GK would be the only thing worse then regular SM.

Maybee custard flasks aswell since they can't bring enough stuff and would just get overwhelmed.

Wait so when people say marines they don't count GK among them. Jesus Christs now I feel more stupid, then normal. I guess a lot of my arguments make no sense now.


Yeah, I don't consider GK Space Marines, since they pretty much don't have or do anything that makes Space Marines Space Marines.

I consider "SM" collectively to be Adeptus Astartes, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels; though mostly referring to Adeptus Astartes. Deathwatch and Grey Knights are factions I can actually like, like.


Any way, back around, I can field a Tank Commander, Manticore, and still make my Battalion at 500 points. My Space Wolves can't do that; it's going to be a choice between having CP and having things. The best games are probably between 1500 and 2000 points.


Also, WRT Kill Team. Guard in KT is so goddamn painful. I played a 4 person game of KT the other night, facing 2 guard players, and oh my god never again. I waited like half an hour for my turn to come while 40 readied guys took turns shooting one by one and achieving jack gak. Guard infantry should not have been an option in Kill Team, maybe stick to Veterans and Scions or something that can actually buy weapon upgrades. It wouldn't have been quite so painful if anything happened, but the end result of half an hour was 1 dead guardsman. The rest of us killed 1 more, and got to repeat the rigmarole in the next turn.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/02/06 05:33:37


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 ServiceGames wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.
I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG


Not many of the big boys will fit into 200 points. We were also debating forbiding anything over nine or ten wounds.


That's stupid, because it excludes almost all vehicles, and all vehicles that are actually interesting, cool, and worthwhile. If you want to play with infantry, play Kill Team.


Vehicles are where a lot of the lethality of the edition is coming from. Taking most of them out of the equation makes the differences in durability amoung the various infantry matter quite a bit more.

For the record what we're going with is:
- LoW models, named characters, and anything that degrades are prohibited.
- A single non-troop choice may be selected, capped at 200 points.
- The remaining points can be spent on Troop choices and Characters but no more than one character can be included per Troop squad.
I wouldn't bother spelling that out, except my LGS is having a lot of fun with this varient. To be fair, the blend of Kill Team alternating activations and City Fight rules are most of what is making it more interesting, but having really different list building constrictions makes a difference. We're also having a lively debate about what exceptions we should make to those rules.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Yeah, but tanks are what's fun.

If I wanted to play a game about basic infantry, I'd play Kill Team.

I already don't like skirmish games. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't include like, the good and cool parts of 40k? There are all these cool units available, most of them tanks or elite infantry of some kind, that largely define 40k; I can see not playing with super heavies, but I can't see not playing with Leman Russes or Predators.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/07 02:47:09


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The Newman wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 ServiceGames wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.
I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG


Not many of the big boys will fit into 200 points. We were also debating forbiding anything over nine or ten wounds.


That's stupid, because it excludes almost all vehicles, and all vehicles that are actually interesting, cool, and worthwhile. If you want to play with infantry, play Kill Team.


Vehicles are where a lot of the lethality of the edition is coming from. Taking most of them out of the equation makes the differences in durability amoung the various infantry matter quite a bit more.

For the record what we're going with is:
- LoW models, named characters, and anything that degrades are prohibited.
- A single non-troop choice may be selected, capped at 200 points.
- The remaining points can be spent on Troop choices and Characters but no more than one character can be included per Troop squad.
I wouldn't bother spelling that out, except my LGS is having a lot of fun with this varient. To be fair, the blend of Kill Team alternating activations and City Fight rules are most of what is making it more interesting, but having really different list building constrictions makes a difference. We're also having a lively debate about what exceptions we should make to those rules.


This is going to far. Super Heavies like knights are an issue, not Russes or Wave Serpents.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Yeah, but tanks are what's fun.

If I wanted to play a game about basic infantry, I'd play Kill Team.

I already don't like skirmish games. Why would I want to play a game that doesn't include like, the good and cool parts of 40k? There are all these cool units available, most of them tanks or elite infantry of some kind, that largely define 40k; I can see not playing with super heavies, but I can't see not playing with Leman Russes or Predators.


And we actually want to play a skirmish game, but Kill Team is a little too small in scale and we're all invested in 40k already. We're trying to find a middle ground so that when we do break out all the toys for a bigger game we don't have to play at Apocalypse levels for it to feel special.
   
Made in se
Glorious Lord of Chaos






Almost literally in the Phantom Zone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That's mostly just an issue with Knights and the pricing behind them.



Still, Peregrine is not wrong in general either.

Marines are just too weak for their points, and so expensive they can't take one of their breadwinners to help them out. Boyz roll over them in 500pt matches.

Imagine that you’re sitting down to dinner with your family, and while everyone else gets a serving of the meal, you don’t get any. So you say “I should get my fair share.” And as a direct response to this, your dad corrects you, saying, “everyone should get their fair share.” Now, that’s a wonderful sentiment — indeed, everyone should, and that was kinda your point in the first place: that you should be a part of everyone, and you should get your fair share also. However, dad’s smart-!@# comment just dismissed you and didn’t solve the problem that you still haven’t gotten any!

The problem is that the statement “I should get my fair share” had an implicit “too” at the end: “I should get my fair share, too, just like everyone else.” But your dad’s response treated your statement as though you meant “only I should get my fair share”, which clearly was not your intention. As a result, his statement that “everyone should get their fair share,” while true, only served to ignore the problem you were trying to point out.

That is why we need feminism, and why I am not simply egalitarian. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






The Newman wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
The Newman wrote:
 ServiceGames wrote:
The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.
I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG


Not many of the big boys will fit into 200 points. We were also debating forbiding anything over nine or ten wounds.


That's stupid, because it excludes almost all vehicles, and all vehicles that are actually interesting, cool, and worthwhile. If you want to play with infantry, play Kill Team.


Vehicles are where a lot of the lethality of the edition is coming from. Taking most of them out of the equation makes the differences in durability amoung the various infantry matter quite a bit more.

For the record what we're going with is:
- LoW models, named characters, and anything that degrades are prohibited.
- A single non-troop choice may be selected, capped at 200 points.
- The remaining points can be spent on Troop choices and Characters but no more than one character can be included per Troop squad.
I wouldn't bother spelling that out, except my LGS is having a lot of fun with this varient. To be fair, the blend of Kill Team alternating activations and City Fight rules are most of what is making it more interesting, but having really different list building constrictions makes a difference. We're also having a lively debate about what exceptions we should make to those rules.


30 fire warriors
1 cold star with fusion guns
1cadre fire blade
1 broadside with rail rifle and plasma

I'd love to see a marine list with 300 points of troops/characters rub its head against this. I'll kill its 200 points of not troops with fusion komander, and then the fire warriors will leaf blow the rest.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 20:16:17


 
   
Made in ca
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





London, Ontario

Oh yeah? I'll pla500 Guardsmen with Commanders and FRF, SRF your Tau to smithereens!

And then someone will play DeathGuard and laugh at my 6's to wound.

Then someone will....


Everyone can pick a counter list. Whoopedy-boop.

40k can be broken, no matter what you restrict a game to. The restrictions just change what's best in a given scenario. Unless people aren't looking to do that... like-minded individuals deciding to have fun in a certain way. All the power to them.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 greatbigtree wrote:
Oh yeah? I'll pla500 Guardsmen with Commanders and FRF, SRF your Tau to smithereens!

And then someone will play DeathGuard and laugh at my 6's to wound.

Then someone will....


Everyone can pick a counter list. Whoopedy-boop.

40k can be broken, no matter what you restrict a game to. The restrictions just change what's best in a given scenario. Unless people aren't looking to do that... like-minded individuals deciding to have fun in a certain way. All the power to them.


The guard one will still smash some marines. I play Space marines too, and grey knights. I'm a bit pissed that both those armies pay out the nose for fragile units. With my tau I at least can run my troops as more than a tax.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 22:24:24


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Well, why wouldn't 500 Guardsmen beat a 500, 750, or even 1000pt list? Even without counting the commanders, you're bringing 2-4 times as many points to a small game.
   
Made in gb
Snivelling Workbot





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

No troop in the game can outshoot tac marines without closing ranges.


I see you Tac marines, and raise you Kataphron destroyers...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 23:33:40


Praise the Omnissiah 
   
Made in ca
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





London, Ontario

Bharring wrote:
Well, why wouldn't 500 Guardsmen beat a 500, 750, or even 1000pt list? Even without counting the commanders, you're bringing 2-4 times as many points to a small game.


Do you even sarcasm / exaggerate, Brah?
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





 The Forgemaster wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

No troop in the game can outshoot tac marines without closing ranges.


I see you Tac marines, and raise you Kataphron destroyers...


I don't think I said that. Spoletta said that, in response to me.

Spoiler:
Spoletta wrote:
 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
*Rolls eyes*
Marines are only bad if you're defining "bad" as "Marines and Worse".

That said, reducing the game size will increase the relative disparity between Marines and Guard.


Different factions would scale differently. For example at 500 points Eldar cannot reach the critical mass of buffs to be dangerous.
Ynnari fare quite badly when there isn't stuff dying left and right.
Necrons are outright scary when you can't focus down a unit per turn.

Marines are probably better at low point games, but still not top tier IMHO.
When it actually comes down to troops having to fight other troops, istead of being just fodders, then marines are in a good position if you use beta bolter rules.
No troop in the game can outshoot tac marines without closing ranges.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
 
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