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I don't do mathhammer as I'm a casual player, but if you were to take away the ability of some armies to bring out their point hogging toys, would MEQ be viable? Or, are they still at a big loss overall compared to other units at lower point counts?

SG

I think they are still at a disadvantage overall, they need actual fixes that aren't points-related.

That said though I do think that 2000 points are not the correct standard size for 40k. 1750 seems way better as it would require less time (there is no need to have chess clocks, and intentional slowplay should be treated like cheating), and being 250 points less means you can't always bring all your big toys.

Yes and no. There has been so much power creep and so many lopsided units, that it's really irrelevant. Like most editions of 40K, there are winners and losers...and marines are overwhelmingly losers at this point (though, conveniently Primaris are now finally the better option). That being said, marines etc. are perfectly viable in non-tournament gaming.

No, simply because of the transportation issue alone.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No, simply because of the transportation issue alone.

This guy teaches you how to make some pretty cool DIY carrying/storage boxes.

DIY Transport

SG

 ServiceGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
No, simply because of the transportation issue alone.

This guy teaches you how to make some pretty cool DIY carrying/storage boxes.

DIY Transport

SG

I meant in-game transportation...

Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.

 Elbows wrote:
That being said, marines etc. are perfectly viable in non-tournament gaming.

This I can confirm My sons and I have played lots of >1000pt games in 8E and they don't really have optimized lists. Mostly "iconic" units like a Tac marine unit, A Dread, A Razorback and the Dark Imperium Primaris units.
But their Marines do great against similarly "deoptimized" lists. Even Eldar, but we avoid the current "meta" units

-

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I meant in-game transportation...

What am I missing? They have the Land Speeder Storm for Scouts. They have the Drop Pod, Stormraven, Rhino, and Razorback for Scouts and Marines. They have the Land Raider and all of its variants for Scouts, Marines, and Terminators. They have the Repulsor for Primaris. Seems like they have more than enough in-game transports.

SG

I am not fond of such restrictions since different codices can have different difficulty spending points in troops. I don't think obligatory troops is the answer.

That said 1250/1500 are my preffered points to play at. You can decide to bring that one superthing. But you're gna feel it supportwise.

The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.

I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG

I think the MAIN issue with most MEQ units is the cheap cost for many high-AP multiple-shot devastating weapons that are available to most armies (including other MEQ armies). If access to such weapons was more expensive, or if they were simply less shots, then MEQ might be seen more.

My 500 point Guard list has chewed through several MEQ players at my LGS in the escalation league...

40 Guardsmen, 6 mortar teams, a Basilisk, and a Hellhound at 500 points is rough. Add in the Vigilus formation that lets me double-fire the Basilisk, and the "ignore cover" relic, and I don't think MEQs are much of a threat to me.

I think that the consensus reached in the previous thread was that marines are fine but they cannot handle a knight so they can't compete in tournaments.
At a lower scale where such big targets are less common, it could be better for them, but it's just a guess.

In theory, the lower the point limit the better the generalists are compared to specialists. When it comes to generalist marines are actually well placed.

The main problem with MEQ seems to be that you can take a lot of AP weapons which now directly affect them when before they didn't, and the fact that 40k focuses around lots of chaff to hold objectives, which marines are not.

So basically they don't play to the edition's strengths right now and their weaknesses are exacerbated by the way the edition plays.

*Rolls eyes*

Marines are only bad if you're defining "bad" as "Marines and Worse". Marines as a monodex are pretty close to the mono-dex variants of the "good" armies [Knights, Guard, Eldar, Dark Eldar], they just don't bring anything to the "soup" when you're picking the best units.


That said, reducing the game size will increase the relative disparity between Marines and Guard, because Guard can field a Battalion or two and have room to spare for support assets, while Space Marines will be choosing between having a battalion or having answers.

 ServiceGames wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.

I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG

Not many of the big boys will fit into 200 points. We were also debating forbiding anything over nine or ten wounds.

It makes cheaper armies in general more viable since they are less hamstrung about options in general.

This is why my renegades, an abmissal index btw, can beat DW in a 500-750 pts spectrum relatively consitently compared to later, where the effects of stratagems roll over me.

That said, stratagme dpendent armies, like CSM, SM, Aeldari, generallly like to have more CP , which require them to have a bit more breathing room for troops and points.

IG on the other hand neither is stratagem dependent as much nor has issues at filling out CP requirements thanks to cheap troops.

Infact i would say that in smaller games were force concentration can't be applied aswell as in bigger games, marines suffer even more.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
*Rolls eyes*

Marines are only bad if you're defining "bad" as "Marines and Worse".


That said, reducing the game size will increase the relative disparity between Marines and Guard.

Different factions would scale differently. For example at 500 points Eldar cannot reach the critical mass of buffs to be dangerous.
Ynnari fare quite badly when there isn't stuff dying left and right.
Necrons are outright scary when you can't focus down a unit per turn.

Marines are probably better at low point games, but still not top tier IMHO.
When it actually comes down to troops having to fight other troops, istead of being just fodders, then marines are in a good position if you use beta bolter rules.
No troop in the game can outshoot tac marines without closing ranges.

The Newman wrote:

 ServiceGames wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Depends on what other restrictions you add. We're playing 500 points with no more than 200 points in non-troops allowed, and using the Kill Team CP generation and alternating activations (per unit, not per model). Marines are actually kinda good in that format.

I'm more thinking along the lines of people not bringing out the big boys in a 500 point game. In that case, you wouldn't have to be concerned about MEQ going up against units like Shadowswords, Imperial Knights, Primarchs, etc.

SG

Not many of the big boys will fit into 200 points. We were also debating forbiding anything over nine or ten wounds.

That's stupid, because it excludes almost all vehicles, and all vehicles that are actually interesting, cool, and worthwhile. If you want to play with infantry, play Kill Team.

Spoletta wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
*Rolls eyes*

Marines are only bad if you're defining "bad" as "Marines and Worse".


That said, reducing the game size will increase the relative disparity between Marines and Guard.

Different factions would scale differently. For example at 500 points Eldar cannot reach the critical mass of buffs to be dangerous.
Ynnari fare quite badly when there isn't stuff dying left and right.
Necrons are outright scary when you can't focus down a unit per turn.

Marines are probably better at low point games, but still not top tier IMHO.

This, is also part of the issue.

I do have a question now, what do people think is the actual best point range?

What is worse then marines then?

500pts is 2 squads of troops and a bad HQ. Can't take any of the good ones, if the no units over 200pts rule is in effect.
21 stormbolters, 2 baby smites. not sure how much 500pts is in orcs or IG, but it seems like 500pts of GK would not be enough. could be wrong though, no one here plays less then 2000pts.

Karol wrote:
What is worse then marines then?

500pts is 2 squads of troops and a bad HQ. Can't take any of the good ones, if the no units over 200pts rule is in effect.
21 stormbolters, 2 baby smites. not sure how much 500pts is in orcs or IG, but it seems like 500pts of GK would not be enough. could be wrong though, no one here plays less then 2000pts.

GK.

Infact GK would be the only thing worse then regular SM.

Maybee custard flasks aswell since they can't bring enough stuff and would just get overwhelmed.

 ServiceGames wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I meant in-game transportation...

What am I missing? They have the Land Speeder Storm for Scouts. They have the Drop Pod, Stormraven, Rhino, and Razorback for Scouts and Marines. They have the Land Raider and all of its variants for Scouts, Marines, and Terminators. They have the Repulsor for Primaris. Seems like they have more than enough in-game transports.

SG

Yeah they have plenty.

The issue comes from the price on top of the already expensive Marines. So in a low point game, you're already losing out on bodies.

Does that make a little more sense?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Karol wrote:
What is worse then marines then?

500pts is 2 squads of troops and a bad HQ. Can't take any of the good ones, if the no units over 200pts rule is in effect.
21 stormbolters, 2 baby smites. not sure how much 500pts is in orcs or IG, but it seems like 500pts of GK would not be enough. could be wrong though, no one here plays less then 2000pts.

GK.

Infact GK would be the only thing worse then regular SM.

Maybee custard flasks aswell since they can't bring enough stuff and would just get overwhelmed.

Wait so when people say marines they don't count GK among them. Jesus Christs now I feel more stupid, then normal. I guess a lot of my arguments make no sense now.

It's kind of pointless to split out GK from Marines. It makes more sense to split out Ultramarines and Deathwatch. Deathwatch are in a more decent place because they have a ridiculous 2+ poison ammo, and Ultramarines with Bobby G can do work if they get first turn.

All other flavors of marines as an army are essentially dead on arrival.

In Kill Team Adeptus Astartes do okay. I can say that Space Marines feel okay to weak-ish but more or less fine in the game. While it is easy enough to ignore the affect of Flesh Wound rules, although Marines have a significant buff there, and Morale rules of Kill Team, the shooting rules I think help marines in pre-screening few lucky shots that could get through.

The biggest issue is similar to regular 40k: cheap and easy access to special weapons. Pretty much any regular human weapon (bolters, lasguns, autoguns, galvanic rifles etc.) are lack luster in Kill Team compared to pretty much any special weapon they can equip which are incredibly cheap compared to regular 40k. I couldn't say how marines/chaos space marines would fair in Kill Team in a 'No Special Weapons' game. I get the impression they would good do well as it takes a lot of work to get through a MEQ with a essentially (always plan on shooting through cover) a BS 4-6+, Str 4/5 AP 0/-1 weapon that is standard small arms of most factions.

I would agree that the smallest point game in regular 40K I would want to play is 500 points maybe with a 3 troop units restriction. However, only having 200 for non-troops, would restrict me from taking the only reason I would want to play 40K over Kill Team: Terminators.

My personal sweet spot seems to be 1500 points (75 pl) on a 6x4 board. Enough points to allow for variety, not too many points as to fill the board entirely. Enough points that *most* of your bases are covered but most armies have exploitable weaknesses.

Too many models on the board can limit the importance of movement, as you’re always in LOS of something.

I think Mono-codices are all viable at 1500 points.

 ServiceGames wrote:
I don't do mathhammer as I'm a casual player, but if you were to take away the ability of some armies to bring out their point hogging toys, would MEQ be viable? Or, are they still at a big loss overall compared to other units at lower point counts?

SG

Still at a loss. Even at 500 points people can bring the big guns, and god help you if your two tactical squads and an HQ have to go up against a knight and IG screen.

That's mostly just an issue with Knights and the pricing behind them.