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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
Ranked Fire and Move Move Move are the major problem points:

Ranked Fire changes Lasguns into Boltguns, which is a big deal for a total unit being equal to about 55 points.

No, it isn't. Not when most units carrying that weapon tend to come a model down right off the bat.

And all your Order suggestions are laughably bad.

I'd also force Company and Platoon Commanders to take their Command Sections. There was precedent for Character units in the form of Celestine and her Minions [though they separate now]. Delete the ability of command sections to take heavy weapons or massed special weapons, so they artificially add 24 points to the Commander's cost but also add fighting ability.

Yeah...no.

Command Squads are awful right now. Special Weapon Squads are awful right now.
And you want to make them worse?

Really, if I were re-do Guard, I'd bring back Platoons. That would effectively increase the cost of a CP battalion to somewhat higher than the cost of other factions' battalions, which still allowing Guard to bring it's own critical infantry mass in monoguard lists.

And then it would make the Loyal 32 that much more appealing, because people like Martel think all they do is "bring bodies".

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

Rofle at the "cheapest hq", which is wrong.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

Rofle at the "cheapest hq", which is wrong.

What HQ is cheaper than 30. Please educate me.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

Rofle at the "cheapest hq", which is wrong.

What HQ is cheaper than 30. Please educate me.

Renegade Commander for 25 points (Renegades and Heretics).

Death Korps Field Officer for 23 points (Death Korps of Kreig).

Thank you Bug.

Okay - so now I know - the CC is only the 3rd cheapest HQ when you include obscure forge world armies.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay - so now I know - the CC is only the 3rd cheapest HQ when you include obscure forge world armies.

You made a general statement, and now after proven wrong you react with snark.
Adorable.

It’s also one of the least durable and least Killy.

Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay - so now I know - the CC is only the 3rd cheapest HQ when you include obscure forge world armies.

You made a general statement, and now after proven wrong you react with snark.
Adorable.

Funny how they are both just CC's with different names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s also one of the least durable and least Killy.

CC comander produces 36 las gun shots a turn. As much as 80 points of gaurdsmen. It's basically the most killy units in the game.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay - so now I know - the CC is only the 3rd cheapest HQ when you include obscure forge world armies.

You made a general statement, and now after proven wrong you react with snark.
Adorable.

Funny how they are both just CC's with different names.

Are they now? Must have missed the covenant for Renegade commanders or the lack of orders for him, or the special orders and equipment for the DKoK dude.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Okay - so now I know - the CC is only the 3rd cheapest HQ when you include obscure forge world armies.

You made a general statement, and now after proven wrong you react with snark.
Adorable.

Funny how they are both just CC's with different names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s also one of the least durable and least Killy.

CC comander produces 36 las gun shots a turn. As much as 80 points of gaurdsmen. It's basically the most killy units in the game.

How exactly does he produce that many shots on his own?

 JNAProductions wrote:
It’s also one of the least durable and least Killy.

And least flexible in terms of options.

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

What's that? Guardsmen, the weakest and cheapest army in the game on a per-model basis, have one of the weakest and cheapest HQ choices in the game on a per-model basis?

I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

Seriously, the Cadre Fireblade is +12pts for +1W, +1Sv, +1BS, and 3-shot rapid fire to every friendly infantry unit within 6". A Succubus is +20pts for +2M, +1WS/BS, +1W, +1A, a 4+ invulnerable save, and Combat Drugs, and Power from Pain, giving free to-hit re-rolls to every Wych Cult unit within 6". A Missionary is +5pts for a 4+ invulnerable save, +1A to all friendly units within 6", and halving the number of models that flee within 6". An Acolyte Iconward is +23pts for +1S/A, a 6" 6+ FNP aura, a 6+ Morale re-roll aura, and a FNP boost to Aberrants within 6". If you get even two units in range of those auras, you've immediately equalled the Orders a Company Commander can issue; less flexibly, sure, but with a higher ceiling, which is pretty much exactly how these things should be compared.

Hell, the Company Commander isn't even the cheapest HQ out there. The Tech-Priest Enginseer is the exact same price for +1W, +2Sv, +1T, and the ability to repair vehicles.

RevlidRas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

What's that? Guardsmen, the weakest and cheapest army in the game on a per-model basis, have one of the weakest and cheapest HQ choices in the game on a per-model basis?

I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

Seriously, the Cadre Fireblade is +12pts for +1W, +1Sv, +1BS, and 3-shot rapid fire to every friendly infantry unit within 6". A Succubus is +20pts for +2M, +1WS/BS, +1W, +1A, a 4+ invulnerable save, and Combat Drugs, and Power from Pain, giving free to-hit re-rolls to every Wych Cult unit within 6". A Missionary is +5pts for a 4+ invulnerable save, +1A to all friendly units within 6", and halving the number of models that flee within 6". An Acolyte Iconward is +23pts for +1S/A, a 6" 6+ FNP aura, a 6+ Morale re-roll aura, and a FNP boost to Aberrants within 6". If you get even two units in range of those auras, you've immediately equalled the Orders a Company Commander can issue; less flexibly, sure, but with a higher ceiling, which is pretty much exactly how these things should be compared.

Hell, the Company Commander isn't even the cheapest HQ out there. The Tech-Priest Enginseer is the exact same price for +1W, +2Sv, +1T, and the ability to repair vehicles.

They still provide too much value compared to their cost. That is my contention. At their current cost, they should much weaker than they currently are.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

Rofle at the "cheapest hq", which is wrong.

What HQ is cheaper than 30. Please educate me.

Not the cheapest but tech priest enginseer for adeptus mechanicus is 30 points if I am not mistaken.

Martel732 wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, he's right. Guardsmen should be very poor for 4 ppm. Only slightly better than grots, to be exact. 20 and 30 point commander models should provide VERY modest buffs. Not amazing buffs. IG get way too much value for what they pay.

What's that? Guardsmen, the weakest and cheapest army in the game on a per-model basis, have one of the weakest and cheapest HQ choices in the game on a per-model basis?

I'm shocked. Shocked! Well, not that shocked.

Seriously, the Cadre Fireblade is +12pts for +1W, +1Sv, +1BS, and 3-shot rapid fire to every friendly infantry unit within 6". A Succubus is +20pts for +2M, +1WS/BS, +1W, +1A, a 4+ invulnerable save, and Combat Drugs, and Power from Pain, giving free to-hit re-rolls to every Wych Cult unit within 6". A Missionary is +5pts for a 4+ invulnerable save, +1A to all friendly units within 6", and halving the number of models that flee within 6". An Acolyte Iconward is +23pts for +1S/A, a 6" 6+ FNP aura, a 6+ Morale re-roll aura, and a FNP boost to Aberrants within 6". If you get even two units in range of those auras, you've immediately equalled the Orders a Company Commander can issue; less flexibly, sure, but with a higher ceiling, which is pretty much exactly how these things should be compared.

Hell, the Company Commander isn't even the cheapest HQ out there. The Tech-Priest Enginseer is the exact same price for +1W, +2Sv, +1T, and the ability to repair vehicles.

They still provide too much value compared to their cost. That is my contention. At their current cost, they should much weaker than they currently are.

How?

No, seriously, in what ways would you like them to be weaker? Fewer wounds? No 5+ save? Even fewer Orders? No-one wants a Company Commander in combat, they can't shoot worth a damn, and if you line up a boltgun firing squad or squad of angry Boyz they're almost three times easier to kill than a random Apothecary. Their only significance is in what they allow other units to do - literally all they're good for is Voice of Command, which is equivalent to your choice of two standard-issue HQ auras that can only affect a single unit each.

Please explain your position with words.

For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Orders would be more acceptable if the units issuing them cost more.

Basically, guardsmen need to perform more in line with the two units they are inbetween now: grots and cultists. They don't. They vastly overperform.

Martel732 wrote:
For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Cultists aren't the army.
How is this something you have such a hard time understanding?

Guardsmen are the army. Conscripts would be the Cultist equivalent and if you want to argue for them not having Regimental traits, that's fine and dandy--quite a few Guard players have argued that.

Your suggestion is akin to Tactical Marines not getting BA traits because I don't like BA waaaaaah.

Orders would be more acceptable if the units issuing them cost more.

You want them costing more? They get a 4+ save, a 2+ 'Look Out Sir!', and come standard with Master Crafted Lasguns.

Basically, guardsmen need to perform more in line with the two units they are inbetween now: grots and cultists. They don't. They vastly overperform.

No, they really don't and no they really aren't.

Grots suck--they're supposed to. Their whole role is and always has been to tarpit for the Orks coming behind them.
Cultists didn't need a points hike but they did need to lose Legion traits, same as how Conscripts needed to lose Regiment traits.

I don't care if they are the army or not. Thats not an excuse for miscosting units. The pricing of guardsmen is absurd, especially after the cultist hike.


Similarly, i dont care if guardsmen are the army. Thats not an excuse to be undercosted.

4 pt models should be really weak. Guardsmen arent. They are delivering too much value.

Officers would be fairly costed if they lost character protection. As it is, they also provide too much value.

Tac marines pay a more than fair price for a trait. Guardsmen dont. Its not the same.

Guardsmen need to cost more than cultists due to how many more mechanical benefits they get.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
As proven countless times by the Ynnari, free actions in a game with limited turns is too game breaking to properly balance. Given that orders are free, unable to fail and unable to be blocked, the more problematic ones should be tweaked.

Take Aim!: Unchanged

Bring it Down!: Unchanged

First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!: All lasguns and all hot-shot lasguns in the ordered unit change their Type to Assault 3 until the end of the phase. This order cannot be issued to a unit that advanced in its movement phase.

Forwards, for the Emperor!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Advanced in its Movement phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.

Get Back in the Fight!: The ordered unit can shoot this phase even if it Fell Back in its Movement phase, but you must subtract 1 from all the resulting hit rolls.

Fix Bayonets!: This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit can add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made with melee weapons until the end of the turn.

Move! Move! Move!: Scrapped.

Orders are fine except for Move Move Move and Fix Bayonets. Add *this unit may not advance as part of this move, nor fire Overwatch in the following Charge phase.* and change Fix Bayonets to +1 attack.

It is not to game breaking to be balanced, just balance instead of nerfing to death. FRFSRF does not turn lasguns into bolters, they are still strength 3 shots.

Agree with Katherine that platoons should have stayed over from 7th. Cool order concepts for tanks as well by the way.

You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't care if they are the army or not. Thats not an excuse for miscosting units. The pricing of guardsmen is absurd, especially after the cultist hike.


Similarly, i dont care if guardsmen are the army. Thats not an excuse to be undercosted.

4 pt models should be really weak. Guardsmen arent. They are delivering too much value.

Officers would be fairly costed if they lost character protection. As it is, they also provide too much value.

Tac marines pay a more than fair price for a trait. Guardsmen dont. Its not the same.

Guardsmen need to cost more than cultists due to how many more mechanical benefits they get.

Bolded the bit I wanted to talk about.

That's basically removing Orders from IG.

It takes...

13.5 BS 3+ Boltgun shots to kill a single Company Commander. For better comparisons, a 5 man squad has a better than 1/3 chance of killing one if standing still, but 10 Marines (in one squad or several) have a nearly 90% chance. With bolters. Not including plasma. Not including rerolls from Lieutenants or Captains or Bobby G. Just bog-standard Marines.

If we add in a Captain and a Lieutenant, not even a CHAPTER MASTER, and a 5 man squad WILL KILL, on average, a Company Commander a turn. Exact odds are at 62.59%.

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

Hey man. It only takes 108 BS 4+ Lasgun shots to kill one Custodian Guard! Assuming no banner, of course.

Martel732 wrote:
For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Orders would be more acceptable if the units issuing them cost more.

Basically, guardsmen need to perform more in line with the two units they are inbetween now: grots and cultists. They don't. They vastly overperform.

In your opinion, are order as they are now fine on Scions? They get all the same basic orders.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

Hey man. It only takes 108 BS 4+ Lasgun shots to kill one Custodian Guard! Assuming no banner, of course.

Good thing I have a couple Super Guardsmen ( BS 4+ Rapidfire 54) models to supplement my guard squads. Wish they could get a price drop though

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Orders are fine except for Move Move Move and Fix Bayonets. Add *this unit may not advance as part of this move, nor fire Overwatch in the following Charge phase.* and change Fix Bayonets to +1 attack.

That's basically all Fix Bayonets is. It's only a specific set of circumstances(which are so well known that to not know what to look for is showcasing how new someone is) that makes Fix Bayonets ridiculous.

Given the fact that items/traits exist now to shut down Overwatch in quite a few armies, there is no excuse to not take advantage of them.

It is not to game breaking to be balanced, just balance instead of nerfing to death. FRFSRF does not turn lasguns into bolters, they are still strength 3 shots.

Agree with Katherine that platoons should have stayed over from 7th. Cool order concepts for tanks as well by the way.

Platoons are an awful concept, have always been an awful concept, and really were just there because of the inflexible nature of the old awful FOC.

Martel732 wrote:
Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

What are you not doing with your BA characters that you are doing with your IG characters? BA characters have character protection as well, IIRC, and are more durable, so you must be doing something to make your IG characters more survivable in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everything scores objectives. Don’t see why that’s relevant.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

You can argue that, but a lot of such units have to get close to do anything.

Martel732 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

You can argue that, but a lot of such units have to get close to do anything.

Sounds like a balance of risk and reward. What’s new?