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 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

What are you not doing with your BA characters that you are doing with your IG characters? BA characters have character protection as well, IIRC, and are more durable, so you must be doing something to make your IG characters more survivable in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everything scores objectives. Don’t see why that’s relevant.

BA characters pay for CC stats, which I have to try to make use of to squeeze their points out. This usually just gets them killed.

Because IG pay 20 pts to be immortal on an objective and marines don't get below 45 pts.

There is an advantage to pure numbers and presence on the table that GW is not taking into account in these costs.

Remember my Boltgun math?

It's even easier to kill them with Snipers-since they do Mortals on a 6 to-wound.

If you can get 10 Sniper shots, assisted by a Captain and Lieutenant, you can down a Commander a turn.

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

What are you not doing with your BA characters that you are doing with your IG characters? BA characters have character protection as well, IIRC, and are more durable, so you must be doing something to make your IG characters more survivable in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everything scores objectives. Don’t see why that’s relevant.

BA characters pay for CC stats, which I have to try to make use of to squeeze their points out. This usually just gets them killed.

Because IG pay 20 pts to be immortal on an objective and marines don't get below 45 pts.

There is an advantage to pure numbers and presence on the table that GW is not taking into account in these costs.

So let’s get this straight.

BA characters have immortality as well with protection rules. And you decide not to take advantage of it, killing your characters.
However, someone else has a character which has character protection and takes advantage of it. It doesn’t die as easy.

So now you’re angry because of your strategy? You pay for CC stats, yes. But the IG characters don’t. They just sit and relax, keeping their heads down, NOT GET SHOT OR STABBED!
This sounds like a problem with your playstyle.

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

You can argue that, but a lot of such units have to get close to do anything.

Sounds like a balance of risk and reward. What’s new?

The fact that the T5 unit are not priced to die to 4 pt guardsmen. That's what.

I've used guardsmen myself now for quite a while. They are complete BS. Way more BS than most posters on here are willing to admit. 40 pts to stop a charge from pretty much anything, including an IK. Their uses are innumerable, unlike a marine, because they are completely expendable. They need only perform one small function, whether that be soak smites, block charges, kill other scrubs, etc. It's nuts. And I don't have to care what happens to them. All the pressure is on the opponent to scrape up enough shots and bust their ass to remove 40 whole points. And it's far more difficult than many posters make it sound. It's 24 bolter shots just to kill 7 in the open to force a LD check that has a decent chance of wiping them. That's nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

What are you not doing with your BA characters that you are doing with your IG characters? BA characters have character protection as well, IIRC, and are more durable, so you must be doing something to make your IG characters more survivable in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everything scores objectives. Don’t see why that’s relevant.

BA characters pay for CC stats, which I have to try to make use of to squeeze their points out. This usually just gets them killed.

Because IG pay 20 pts to be immortal on an objective and marines don't get below 45 pts.

There is an advantage to pure numbers and presence on the table that GW is not taking into account in these costs.

So let’s get this straight.

BA characters have immortality as well with protection rules. And you decide not to take advantage of it, killing your characters.
However, someone else has a character which has character protection and takes advantage of it. It doesn’t die as easy.

So now you’re angry because of your strategy? You pay for CC stats, yes. But the IG characters don’t. They just sit and relax, keeping their heads down, NOT GET SHOT OR STABBED!
This sounds like a problem with your playstyle.

Sure. When you find a way to use BA characters without getting them smoked, come talk to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remember my Boltgun math?

It's even easier to kill them with Snipers-since they do Mortals on a 6 to-wound.

If you can get 10 Sniper shots, assisted by a Captain and Lieutenant, you can down a Commander a turn.

If snipers were reasonably costed, that might be thing. Oh, wait except for Ig snipers which ARE reasonably costed.

So, Martel, how many points do you think an ordinary Guardsmen is worth, right now?

Based off cultists, 6 ppm. I'd still pay for my front line of jabronis that are gonna get smoked and eat all the smites.

Martel732 wrote:
Based off cultists, 6 ppm. I'd still pay for my front line of jabronis that are gonna get smoked and eat all the smites.

And Company Commanders? How many points should they be?

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You make a huge mistake in thinking that lasguns are substantially worse than bolters in 8th. There are plenty of expensive T5 units that guardsmen just melt with FRFSRF.

And I would argue why exactly are people allowing their "expensive T5 units" get melted by FRFSRF?

You can argue that, but a lot of such units have to get close to do anything.

Sounds like a balance of risk and reward. What’s new?

The fact that the T5 unit are not priced to die to 4 pt guardsmen. That's what.

I've used guardsmen myself now for quite a while. They are complete BS. Way more BS than most posters on here are willing to admit. 40 pts to stop a charge from pretty much anything, including an IK. Their uses are innumerable, unlike a marine, because they are completely expendable. They need only perform one small function, whether that be soak smites, block charges, kill other scrubs, etc. It's nuts. And I don't have to care what happens to them. All the pressure is on the opponent to scrape up enough shots and bust their ass to remove 40 whole points. And it's far more difficult than many posters make it sound. It's 24 bolter shots just to kill 7 in the open to force a LD check that has a decent chance of wiping them. That's nuts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Still scores obj and is immortal bc of character rule. My ig characters live way longer than my ba

What are you not doing with your BA characters that you are doing with your IG characters? BA characters have character protection as well, IIRC, and are more durable, so you must be doing something to make your IG characters more survivable in game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, everything scores objectives. Don’t see why that’s relevant.

BA characters pay for CC stats, which I have to try to make use of to squeeze their points out. This usually just gets them killed.

Because IG pay 20 pts to be immortal on an objective and marines don't get below 45 pts.

There is an advantage to pure numbers and presence on the table that GW is not taking into account in these costs.

So let’s get this straight.

BA characters have immortality as well with protection rules. And you decide not to take advantage of it, killing your characters.
However, someone else has a character which has character protection and takes advantage of it. It doesn’t die as easy.

So now you’re angry because of your strategy? You pay for CC stats, yes. But the IG characters don’t. They just sit and relax, keeping their heads down, NOT GET SHOT OR STABBED!
This sounds like a problem with your playstyle.

Sure. When you find a way to use BA characters without getting them smoked, come talk to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Remember my Boltgun math?

It's even easier to kill them with Snipers-since they do Mortals on a 6 to-wound.

If you can get 10 Sniper shots, assisted by a Captain and Lieutenant, you can down a Commander a turn.

If snipers were reasonably costed, that might be thing. Oh, wait except for Ig snipers which ARE reasonably costed.

Here you go.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/BloodAngels/comments/b85wep/pure_ba_just_came_3rd_in_the_gibraltar_40k_gt_the/

This list has 1 smash Captain, so only one character being thrown about with reckless abandon.
Two Redemptor Dreadnoughts, giant armored monsters built for durability and wrecking face. Finally, the other characters are safe babysitting the moving gun castle. Bam. Internet pastry.

With guardsmen at 6 ppm, They'd probably be fine at 35 actually. 30 is just too low for a 4W guy with an invuln.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've seen that list. No idea why he chose BA chapter for it. I guess it doesn't matter, since its mostly vehicles. Insta-loses to Castellan, but it is interesting.

I wouldn't call redemptors durable. No invuln, only T7.

So, for 155 points, you get 20 Guardsmen with 36 shots at 24".

As opposed to 130 for 10 Marines with 20 shots, same range.

Each turn, the Guard put out 18 hits (12 against Raven Guard).
That's 6 (4) wounds, and 2 (1.33) failed saves.

The Marines put out 13.33 hits.
That's 8.89 wounds, and 5.93 failed saves.

With morale, the Marines lose... 2 bodies.
With morale, the Guard lose... Around 8 bodies.

In other words, in a stand-still slog-fest, the Marines not just outshoot the Guard, they do it by a VAST margin.

Edit: For cheaper to boot!

That's not the whole game, though. I'm not just talking head to head here. I can soak twice as many mortals with those 20 guardsmen. I can cockblock twice as many charges. I can prevent DS over a larger area.

Wait, how are 20 guardsmen 155?

Even at 6 ppm, they are only 120.

130 currently gets you 32 guardsmen.

Martel732 wrote:
That's not the whole game, though. I'm not just talking head to head here. I can soak twice as many mortals with those 20 guardsmen. I can cockblock twice as many charges. I can prevent DS over a larger area.

Wait, how are 20 guardsmen 155?

Even at 6 ppm, they are only 120.

Company Commander. Otherwise, cut the number of shots in half.

And sure, they take up more space, and eat mortals better. But they'll die way the hell faster to small arms, which most lists include a decent amount of-to the point where they're outshot BY MARINES. Who suck.

It's still only 115 for company commander plus 20 guardsmen.

They die faster to small arms, but not faster enough. That's one of the key issues.

I meant with your proposed changes. You know, increasing their price by 50%? Making them worse than Marines?

I'm fine with IG having better vehicles than marines and worse troops. Almost like balance.

And there would still be plenty of advantages for the guardsmen, as I noted. Guardsmen should be weak to small arms. Currently, they aren't. They'd be strong vs charges and mortal wounds. Tradeoffs they currently don't have to make. Guardsmen have all the advantages.

God forbid a unit is worse than marines. Obviously not allowed as marines are the NPC posterboys.

Martel732 wrote:
For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Points costs are not determined in a vacuum. Cultists and Grots and Termagants and Guardsmen and Neophytes and Kroot all cost what they do, and have the rules that they do, because of the units around them and their roles in their respective armies. Not because adding +1 Strength to a unit or subtracting -1Sv feeds into some exacting algorithm that spits out a standardized cost.

RevlidRas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Points costs are not determined in a vacuum. Cultists and Grots and Termagants and Guardsmen and Neophytes and Kroot all cost what they do, and have the rules that they do, because of the units around them and their roles in their respective armies. Not because adding +1 Strength to a unit or subtracting -1Sv feeds into some exacting algorithm that spits out a standardized cost.

Maybe not, but the cultist/guardsmen situation is insane. It's not like I'm not using guardsmen myself. I understand their value just fine.

Martel732 wrote:

RevlidRas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
For starters, guardsmen statline should be inferior to cultists at this point, since they are cheaper. And no regiments, since cultists don't get legion traits.

Points costs are not determined in a vacuum. Cultists and Grots and Termagants and Guardsmen and Neophytes and Kroot all cost what they do, and have the rules that they do, because of the units around them and their roles in their respective armies. Not because adding +1 Strength to a unit or subtracting -1Sv feeds into some exacting algorithm that spits out a standardized cost.

Maybe not, but the cultist/guardsmen situation is insane. It's not like I'm not using guardsmen myself. I understand their value just fine.

Your proposal of 6-point Guardsmen would place them at the same price as Kabalite Warriors, who have +1M, +1WS, +1BS, +1Ld, better guns, 6+ FNP and further boosts as the game goes on, and can be taken in squads of 5-20 with no need to dedicate two models to firing a heavy weapon. In exchange, they... lose Orders. And get the reroll 1s Order right back, for free, every turn, by sitting within Order-range of their HQ.

They would be 1 point more expensive than Neophyte Hybrids, with -1Ld, no Cult Ambush, and less flexible unit sizes. They get Orders, sure, but the Neophytes can get equivalent or better buffs for free from practically all their HQ and Elite choices too.

Yes, Cultists aren't in a particularly happy place right now. Why is that? Because they were outshining Chaos Space Marines, which wasn't the design intent for that army. Because they weren't - unlike Infantry Squads or Termagants or Neophytes - intended to be the core infantry of the army.

Oh kabalites would be 8. All of the too-cheap troops need to go up.

Core of the army is not a valid reason to me.

Cheap models should be poor. Thats why they are cheap. Guardsmen are not 4pt poor. End of the story to me.

Martel732 wrote:
Oh kabalites would be 8. All of the too-cheap troops need to go up.

Core of the army is not a valid reason to me.

Cheap models should be poor. Thats why they are cheap. Guardsmen are not 4pt poor. End of the story to me.

The logic seems to work with the game we have now. So your denial is useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That seems to be how GW is balancing. Write an angry letter to them. And don’t be ridiculous with your suggestions.

The end of a story is where one would stop talking / writing about it, you know?

Martel732 wrote:
Oh kabalites would be 8. All of the too-cheap troops need to go up.

Core of the army is not a valid reason to me.

Cheap models should be poor. Thats why they are cheap. Guardsmen are not 4pt poor. End of the story to me.

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHAOS CULTISTS

 Apple Peel wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Oh kabalites would be 8. All of the too-cheap troops need to go up.

Core of the army is not a valid reason to me.

Cheap models should be poor. Thats why they are cheap. Guardsmen are not 4pt poor. End of the story to me.

The logic seems to work with the game we have now. So your denial is useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That seems to be how GW is balancing. Write an angry letter to them. And don’t be ridiculous with your suggestions.

I guess this the part where i object to gw's gak logic. I'm not being ridiculous. People are just addicted to 4 ppm guardsmen. And in denial.

I have no illusions that gw will fix this.

The story continues.

I think they should be worth 5 points each, and Marines should be 12 for the first 5, 10 points each, after that.