Switch Theme:

New Keeper three times the price.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in ru
Been Around the Block




New Keeper is BADLY overpriced, especially its points cost.

How so big and fragile unit can cost 240/250 pts, when we have bloodthirster of insensate rage right next to him, who performs 2.5 (!!) times better then new Keeper by pure math, while also having a better save and being only 10 pts more expensive?

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 06:00:16


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





EricDominus wrote:
New Keeper is BADLY overpriced, especially its points cost.

How so big and fragile unit can cost 240/250 pts, when we have bloodthirster of insensate rage right next to him, who performs 2.5 (!!) times better then new Keeper by pure math, while also having a better save and being only 10 pts more expensive?


WS2 S7 A6 3+/5++; 6 to hit scores 2 hits; Melta axe and sweep attack; +1S/A when charging/charged; Degrades WS/A

vs

WS2 S6 5++/6+++(5+++ vs MW); ASF, -1 to be hit in melee, reroll wound rolls of 1

6 S8 AP3 D3 attacks that cause a wounded unit to be -1 to hit
4 S6 AP3 D3; wound roll of 6s cause AP4

Let's think about this.

KoS charges or gets charged by BT and strikes first anyway.

6 * .833 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 7.8
4 * .833 * .388 * .666 * 3 = 2.6

That puts the BT on his second bracket by a good margin. Since we was wounded he will now be -2 to hit with 4+1 attacks.

5 * 1.167 * .5 * .833 * .666 * 4.5 * .833 = 6.1

It is quite unlikely that a BT would ever be able to solo a KoS. And the next round the KoS goes first again.


A BT getting hit by a lascannon takes 1 damage. The KoS takes 0.9 damage.
A lasgun does 0.03 to a BT and 0.05 to a KoS, which means only ~350 lasguns to kill the KoS as opposed to 533 for the BT

And let's not forget the KoS can cast two spells and moves faster than the BT with access to advance and charge...


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 07:17:54


[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




On the flip side of this, from what I heared from the moans at my store in AoS the keeper is brutaly under priced. So maybe it kind of a balances itself out.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




at $230 its going into my Nope list i think. No matter how good it looks.
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

A Bloodthirster can take the Armour of Scorn though, and can also get a 6+++ from a warlord trait. The Keeper has no such survivability boost options.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
A Bloodthirster can take the Armour of Scorn though, and can also get a 6+++ from a warlord trait. The Keeper has no such survivability boost options.


Yea, but I'm not sure people are jumping at the chance to make the BT their WL. The KoS relics need to be FAQ'd, because as they stand one doesn't work and the other is weaker than the stock weapon now.

If I were to dare then it'd be the 3" move to give him/her 20+ run and charge turn 1.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
A Bloodthirster can take the Armour of Scorn though, and can also get a 6+++ from a warlord trait. The Keeper has no such survivability boost options.


Yea, but I'm not sure people are jumping at the chance to make the BT their WL. The KoS relics need to be FAQ'd, because as they stand one doesn't work and the other is weaker than the stock weapon now.

If I were to dare then it'd be the 3" move to give him/her 20+ run and charge turn 1.


Keeper still can get the Aegis and be Warp Surged for 4++/6+++.
   
Made in ru
Been Around the Block




 Daedalus81 wrote:
EricDominus wrote:
New Keeper is BADLY overpriced, especially its points cost.

How so big and fragile unit can cost 240/250 pts, when we have bloodthirster of insensate rage right next to him, who performs 2.5 (!!) times better then new Keeper by pure math, while also having a better save and being only 10 pts more expensive?


WS2 S7 A6 3+/5++; 6 to hit scores 2 hits; Melta axe and sweep attack; +1S/A when charging/charged; Degrades WS/A

vs

WS2 S6 5++/6+++(5+++ vs MW); ASF, -1 to be hit in melee, reroll wound rolls of 1

6 S8 AP3 D3 attacks that cause a wounded unit to be -1 to hit
4 S6 AP3 D3; wound roll of 6s cause AP4

Let's think about this.

KoS charges or gets charged by BT and strikes first anyway.

6 * .833 * .777 * .666 * 3 = 7.8
4 * .833 * .388 * .666 * 3 = 2.6

That puts the BT on his second bracket by a good margin. Since we was wounded he will now be -2 to hit with 4+1 attacks.

5 * 1.167 * .5 * .833 * .666 * 4.5 * .833 = 6.1

It is quite unlikely that a BT would ever be able to solo a KoS. And the next round the KoS goes first again.


A BT getting hit by a lascannon takes 1 damage. The KoS takes 0.9 damage.
A lasgun does 0.03 to a BT and 0.05 to a KoS, which means only ~350 lasguns to kill the KoS as opposed to 533 for the BT

And let's not forget the KoS can cast two spells and moves faster than the BT with access to advance and charge...




1st: It's not a standoff, we are talking about overall usefullness. Khorne's BT is 2-2.5 times better then keeper against EVERY. TARGET. IN THE GAME.

2nd: No, the Keeper wont fight 1st if it is charged, re-read quicksilver swiftness.

3rd: It is fast, yeah, sure. But it is also HUGE. With 6+/5++. So it is gonna be shot off from the table turn 1, unless we deep strike it, which leads us to...

4th: When you deepstrike someone - you dont care about "Charge after advance", you need "reroll failed charge rolls".

So again, our new Keeper deals on average 10 wounds per round against any Knight/Leman Russ, and kills about 7 orks.

BT deals 25 wounds per round, tougher. has more realible chance to survive, to charge after deepstrike and kills 12-13 orks.


Huge, fragile, not killy enough to deal with big targets, not choppy enough to deal with hordes. For what we must pay 250 pts again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And dont start about LoSblocks, this thing is as tall as Magnus, save for wings.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 10:42:42


 
   
Made in de
Been Around the Block




You forget a Keeper can render things useless without killing. Said Knight will be in a damage bracket, will have -1 to hit from the Witstealer and most likely Symphony of Pain causing -1 to hit again. Yes it may be alive, but still useless. And most things smaller than a Knight are still dead after 15 Wounds. Also if we add in damage spells and the Whip a Keeper can kill as many Orks as the BT.

Also its most of the time pretty clear if you go first or second. So you know when to set the Keeper straight on the board and when to DS.

Still ofc I am also not happy withe the mere 5++ and would love Greater Daemons to sit on 4++ or give all of them decent armor atleast. 3+ saves for KoS/GUO/LoC and 2+ for the BT wouldnt be that unrealistic. They are DAEMONS, their skin can easily be as hard as any armor. But I dont think the Keeper is worse than the other Greater Daemons.
   
Made in ru
Been Around the Block




Cinderspirit wrote:
You forget a Keeper can render things useless without killing. Said Knight will be in a damage bracket, will have -1 to hit from the Witstealer and most likely Symphony of Pain causing -1 to hit again. Yes it may be alive, but still useless. And most things smaller than a Knight are still dead after 15 Wounds. Also if we add in damage spells and the Whip a Keeper can kill as many Orks as the BT.

Also its most of the time pretty clear if you go first or second. So you know when to set the Keeper straight on the board and when to DS.

Still ofc I am also not happy withe the mere 5++ and would love Greater Daemons to sit on 4++ or give all of them decent armor atleast. 3+ saves for KoS/GUO/LoC and 2+ for the BT wouldnt be that unrealistic. They are DAEMONS, their skin can easily be as hard as any armor. But I dont think the Keeper is worse than the other Greater Daemons.


Yeah, i'll pay 150$ real money and 250 pts to render one unit useless without kiling it.

And it's 10 wounds. 10 wounds to a leman/knight. My bad, i have corrected my mistake.

So. Huge, fragile, cant kill even 10 men marine squard or leman russ. BUT it can cast 2 powers and debuff someone... if it gets into melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
While also being as expensive as the Greater Daemon, who can rip Knights open, stomp blobs and survive small arms/medium fire more reliable.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 10:50:00


 
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Heart of Fadeless Splendour

A KoS wouldn't strike first in the phase it got charged, FYI.

Only in subsequent phases.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,828pts painted (updated 15/06/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 08/05/19, ep8 - Звезда | Zvezda | The Star)
The Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 06/05/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.

 
   
Made in gb
Lethal Lhamean




Birmingham

 Excommunicatus wrote:
A KoS wouldn't strike first in the phase it got charged, FYI.

Only in subsequent phases.

Actually, it depends on how many of your opponents units have charged and who is picked to fight first. Obviously the smart choice is the Bloodthirster but I've seen people make silly choices before.
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Heart of Fadeless Splendour

Right, but you don't need mathhammer to beat someone who doesn't swing first with a BT.

Even the "blud 4 the blud god!!111!" crowd aren't that dumb.

-----------------------------------------

EricDominus, you're complaining that the KoS can't just run at their lines, shouting, and kill everything it sees but it has never, ever, ever, ever been able to do that.

Slaanesh cannot do that and never, ever, ever, ever have been able to do that.

You're ignoring that the KoS is a PSYKER and that it's faster. Also, if you can't LoSblock a single unit then that says much more about you and/or the tables you play on than it does the KoS.

So, yeah. The new KoS is a KoS, not a BT. How is that surprising to you?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 19:35:21


The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,828pts painted (updated 15/06/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 08/05/19, ep8 - Звезда | Zvezda | The Star)
The Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 06/05/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.

 
   
Made in ca
Wicked Wych With a Whip




I did like her when she was a little guy you could take 3 of though.
   
Made in nl
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




 Excommunicatus wrote:
Right, but you don't need mathhammer to beat someone who doesn't swing first with a BT.

Even the "blud 4 the blud god!!111!" crowd aren't that dumb.

-----------------------------------------

EricDominus, you're complaining that the KoS can't just run at their lines, shouting, and kill everything it sees but it has never, ever, ever, ever been able to do that.

Slaanesh cannot do that and never, ever, ever, ever have been able to do that.

You're ignoring that the KoS is a PSYKER and that it's faster. Also, if you can't LoSblock a single unit then that says much more about you and/or the tables you play on than it does the KoS.

So, yeah. The new KoS is a KoS, not a BT. How is that surprising to you?


Thing is though that the Slaanesh discipline does not synergize particularly well with the KoS. Which means that the comparison to a BT is more fair than you might think because the primary function of both is a melee beatstick. The KoS needs personal defense out of psychic powers more than anything, and the Slaanesh discipline only offers a paltry 6+++ that you can also get as a wargear option. If you can get it into CC and survive until your next psychic phase Hysterical Frenzy will be awesome on it, the big problem however is getting that to happen. The KoS has no easy way into CC, Slaanesh has no charge rerolls or charge distance increases so it's deepstrike is significantly weaker than a Bloodthirsters' and while it has great mobility in the movement phase and realistically threaten a first turn charge that requires starting it on the board. Which possibly means going second. And going second means your KoS will most likely be shot off the board before it gets to act. As a final nail in the coffin the Bloodthirster can charge over screens again as per the April big FAQ.

The rest of the Slaanesh powers are debuffs and direct damage which are far better utilized by cheaper stuff like Heralds or the new mirror thing because the KoS has no way to increase their power compared to having them being cast by something cheaper, which means those powers are horribly inefficient to cast with it.

So yeah. While the KoS is undoubtedly an awesome model I cannot really see it being placed in a lot of lists. For almost all intents and purposes it is a weaker, wingless Bloodthirster for the same price. Maybe Shalaxi Helbane could work because his potential damage output is ridiculous and his survivability in melee will be quite decent with Quicksilver Swiftness and -1 to hit and wound him, but he too faces the big problem of getting into CC before being killed.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 20:35:49


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




All they needed to do was have the shield give +1 invuln and she would have been fine.

As it is she's simply too fragile for her points. An amazing shame; she's an amazing model. But you just can't play something that is high priority and gets shot off the board without much effort T1.

Too much of the current concept for slaanesh is wrapped up in "speed" which isn't super useful in this edition. Quicksilver swiftness is very bad; there aren't that many turns that get multiple melee units going on and the fact that it doesn't come into play until at least the second round of combat is no good for fast fragile units. Sure, their speed in inches is reasonable, but no flying is a big downside.

It needs a rework.
   
Made in nl
Lesser Daemon of Chaos




drakerocket wrote:
All they needed to do was have the shield give +1 invuln and she would have been fine.

As it is she's simply too fragile for her points. An amazing shame; she's an amazing model. But you just can't play something that is high priority and gets shot off the board without much effort T1.

Too much of the current concept for slaanesh is wrapped up in "speed" which isn't super useful in this edition. Quicksilver swiftness is very bad; there aren't that many turns that get multiple melee units going on and the fact that it doesn't come into play until at least the second round of combat is no good for fast fragile units. Sure, their speed in inches is reasonable, but no flying is a big downside.

It needs a rework.


It's not that high movement units aren't useful; in fact, it's super useful. The problem is that getting the first turn is so damn important this edition because everything hits so hard, and this goes double for Slaanesh units who are extremely fragile against shooting attacks and only have a modicum of survivability while locked in CC. If you go second as Slaanesh Daemons, you're royally fethed.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/04/29 20:51:39


 
   
Made in ca
Eternally-Stimulated Slaanesh Dreadnought





Heart of Fadeless Splendour

Again, if you can't hide a single KoS from a single round of shooting, maybe try actually following the rules for terrain deployment.

I also don't know what to tell you if you can't find Psyker defence in a Slaanesh list.

The Fall of Kronstaat IV
Война Народная | Voyna Narodnaya | The People's War - 2,828pts painted (updated 15/06/19)
Волшебная Сказка | Volshebnaya Skazka | A Fairy Tale (updated 08/05/19, ep8 - Звезда | Zvezda | The Star)
The Kabal of The Violet Heart (updated 06/05/19)

You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cause it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment.

 
   
Made in us
Black Templar Chaplain with Hate to Spare




On the Internet

Headlss wrote:
I mean we knew it was going to happen but still. Going from $50 to $150 is steep. I am kind of wishing I had bought some of the old ones, I'm 3 armies away from needing a couple but...

Probably don't need it, but such a deal.

Considering the old one is this big:


And the new one is this big:


I can see why it's more expensive. Plus it's a multi-part kit you can use to make a unique character out of and comes with extra bits to let you customize your Keepers more than the old one let you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EricDominus wrote:
New Keeper is BADLY overpriced, especially its points cost.

How so big and fragile unit can cost 240/250 pts, when we have bloodthirster of insensate rage right next to him, who performs 2.5 (!!) times better then new Keeper by pure math, while also having a better save and being only 10 pts more expensive?

Yeah, but unlike a Bloodthirster we can move 17"+D6+1" and then charge 2d6+1" on turn 1. A Keeper has a threat range of 21"-35" (can't charge declare a more than 12" even with the bonus inch, but you can use it to position better). We can also buy protection from Mortal Wounds (the shield) and we're a psyker. Which also means we can deny powers as well (unlike a Bloodthirster). Oh, and with the Soulstealer sword we can regain up to 6 wounds a turn, 12 if we fight out of phase for 1CP, and up to 14 if we took the hand upgrade instead of the shield.

Can we win a straight fight with a Bloodthirster with the regular Keeper? Not in a straight battle in a 1 vs 1 fight in a void, but it's hardly DOA either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
A Bloodthirster can take the Armour of Scorn though, and can also get a 6+++ from a warlord trait. The Keeper has no such survivability boost options.

5+ invul (4+ for 1CP), 6+ shield save (5+ versus mortal wounds). Alternatively you could take the hand if you plan on using her against chaffe and just want to get extra wounds back when you fight, in which case you can pop Delightful Agonies for a 6+ FnP save with no bonus versus Mortal Wounds.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/04/29 21:33:02


 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: