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Insectum7 wrote: ^Practical problem: Pods aren't used.
Practical problem: Many people feel that Space Marines aren't bringing value to soup.
Solution: Give Pods the turn 1 strike ability they've had (I think consistently) since they were introduced into 40k during 4th edition. Iirc, their unique place was that half of the pods didn't have to roll for reserves for entry. Not to mention they were able to Deep Strike safely by avoiding enemy units, another unique ability.
I'd argue that over a decade of "special deep strike" precedence makes this suggestion not "wild gak". It is also an offensive, rather than defensive solution.
WHY are pods not used? The things that can ride in pods has been drastically reduced. The things that CAN ride in pods can't be accompanied by characters any more since characters don't join units any more. SM don't need to bring value to soup. They need to bring value to themselves.
Solution, make their capacity a number of models instead of a number of units. Then you can pack buffing characters into the pod with the units they want to buff.
Tyranid pods suffer a similar problem. You can't pack in nid warriors with a prime unless you want to buy an entire extra pod just for the prime. Whens the last time you saw a tyrannoctye on the table? This is a game wide issue. Not just a SM issue.
I would argue that if you want to make it so pods are usable then you should address their capacity and who can ride in them so that players want to fill them with things worth drop podding.
As pointed out above, Pods can already pack a few Characters in with the squad, or multiple squads, etc. They function like most other transports on that way. Tyranids are the odd ones in this case. At least Jorm alows you to bring in multiple bonus units through one tunnel.
Pretty sure thats just the index version. COULD be wrong but fairly certain codex drop pod is 1 unit of up to 10 models.
Not all characters can take jump packs. For instance, Black Templars would probably love to get their characters in a pod with their dudes. (I mean BT have their own other issues but this is certainly one of them).
Let me give you another tyranid example.
A TCyte costs roughly 115. It can carry a single unit of up to 20 models or a single MONSTER. (so not even a full unit of gaunts/gants. Not 2 units of 9 warriors and a prime. Just 1 unit.).
Shrikes cost 6 points more than warriors (roughly 26ish points equipped). They get fly and 12" movement but no deepstrike and the prime no longer buffs them.
IF you go Jormungandr then you can pay for Ravenors to deepstrike warriors and a prime, but you will need to spend probably 3 CP to make it worth it (2 units of warriors and a prime) and to fit them all within 3 inches you are looking at at least 2 units of 4 ravenors. (guarantee you they are more expensive then either your drop pod or the jump unit marines, though being able to bring deathspitters (for even more cost) is nice. (the 4+ BS is however middling).
I 100% agree that the SM dex has absolute gak internal balance. It's a result of bloat of units with overlapping abilities/niches. I also agree that they shouldn't be much cheaper. I disagree that they are incapable of adding sufficient value to units. I think there are several units that would love to be in a pod if other issues were rectified. I don't think they need to be able to drop on turn 1. I DO think they need to be able to shoot even if they are in melee. I think the door ruling is dumb. But so are most of their rulings.
The whole SM line needs a major clean up. Lots and lots of units need to be cut or condensed at this point so there isn't so much overlap and each thing can have a distinct place. trying to find 30 ways to make 30 things unique by giving them special snow flake bonuses isn't a good direction to go in.
At this point, as much as so many people will probably hate it, it's probably best for the whole SM line when 9th comes to squat everything that isn't primaris/supports primaris. They have a clean design space to give each unit a real place in the army with none of the old baggage. Pull the heads off your old characters, stick them on primaris bodies and add bits to make them stand out. It sucks, but like I said, it's probably for the best.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 08:02:00
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
"Drop Pod Assault:
Up to two Drop Pods may deploy during your first Movement Phase, but may only carry Tactical Squads, Intercessors, and/or Characters. All other restrictions apply."
Combined with this, which really should happen:
"Primaris Intercessors may use any <Chapter> Transports that permit Tactical Squads".
Insectum7 wrote: ^Practical problem: Pods aren't used.
Practical problem: Many people feel that Space Marines aren't bringing value to soup.
Solution: Give Pods the turn 1 strike ability they've had (I think consistently) since they were introduced into 40k during 4th edition. Iirc, their unique place was that half of the pods didn't have to roll for reserves for entry. Not to mention they were able to Deep Strike safely by avoiding enemy units, another unique ability.
I'd argue that over a decade of "special deep strike" precedence makes this suggestion not "wild gak". It is also an offensive, rather than defensive solution.
WHY are pods not used? The things that can ride in pods has been drastically reduced. The things that CAN ride in pods can't be accompanied by characters any more since characters don't join units any more. SM don't need to bring value to soup. They need to bring value to themselves.
Solution, make their capacity a number of models instead of a number of units. Then you can pack buffing characters into the pod with the units they want to buff.
Tyranid pods suffer a similar problem. You can't pack in nid warriors with a prime unless you want to buy an entire extra pod just for the prime. Whens the last time you saw a tyrannoctye on the table? This is a game wide issue. Not just a SM issue.
I would argue that if you want to make it so pods are usable then you should address their capacity and who can ride in them so that players want to fill them with things worth drop podding.
Nids have a tyrgon (turn 2 only ofc) but can carry 30 models compared to 10. Plus trygons don't suck - they have 7 d6 damage attacks...yeah - 7. Can drop 30 gaunts with devs and take 180 shots...yeah - 180. My entire 2000 point marine list doesn't even have that many shots.
There are arguements to be made that with 1/3 of total capacity and totally sucking otherwise. The drop pod needs something to distinguish itself. The scariest thing you can put in there is 10 sterngaurd with combi plasmas (which is just a sucide unit) that will likely kill 2-3 of it's own self to kill 1 target withing 12 inches - not very impressive.
Lance845 wrote: Pretty sure thats just the index version. COULD be wrong but fairly certain codex drop pod is 1 unit of up to 10 models.
You are very wrong. ". . . up to ten <Chapter> infantry models . ." And the Drop Pod Assault rule specifically mentions setting up any "units" inside.
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 16:19:26
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Allowing Drop Pods to be the 1 exception to the Tactical Reserves limit would, I think, make them worth taking.
Will it be a winning strategy the wins tournaments? Not even close But it gives them something unique that players can leverage to make many sub-par units (including the Pods themselves) actually interesting
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 17:07:51
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
I'm pretty happy with being able to deliver basic marines, but it's true that we can no longer deliver things like Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts. I would have hoped I could still drop Boxnaughts, at least. It's unclear to me why they removed those options, although the model does look really cool with all the brace-bars for power armor in there. Jump packs get too Deep Strike anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. It used to be that you'd take a Pod in order to get reliable Deep Strike, but now there's no mishaps so it's not a big deal.
The major benefit of the Pod currently is that you can't Auspex Scan or Forewarn against the models disembarking the Pod, which is pretty nifty.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 17:45:38
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
I'm pretty happy with being able to deliver basic marines, but it's true that we can no longer deliver things like Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts. I would have hoped I could still drop Boxnaughts, at least. It's unclear to me why they removed those options, although the model does look really cool with all the brace-bars for power armor in there. Jump packs get too Deep Strike anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. It used to be that you'd take a Pod in order to get reliable Deep Strike, but now there's no mishaps so it's not a big deal.
The major benefit of the Pod currently is that you can't Auspex Scan or Forewarn against the models disembarking the Pod, which is pretty nifty.
Honestly I don't think that is fair or intended. Just GW not understanding how their game works and giving answers in FAQ on the fly.
If it got access to turn 1 DS - no being able to put a unit with a Jump pack in their is a big deal. Cause that unit isn't going far after that first drop. It kind of mandates you use shooting.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
I'm pretty happy with being able to deliver basic marines, but it's true that we can no longer deliver things like Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts. I would have hoped I could still drop Boxnaughts, at least. It's unclear to me why they removed those options, although the model does look really cool with all the brace-bars for power armor in there. Jump packs get too Deep Strike anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. It used to be that you'd take a Pod in order to get reliable Deep Strike, but now there's no mishaps so it's not a big deal.
The major benefit of the Pod currently is that you can't Auspex Scan or Forewarn against the models disembarking the Pod, which is pretty nifty.
Honestly I don't think that is fair or intended. Just GW not understanding how their game works and giving answers in FAQ on the fly.
If it got access to turn 1 DS - no being able to put a unit with a Jump pack in their is a big deal. Cause that unit isn't going far after that first drop. It kind of mandates you use shooting.
Why does it mandate shooting? The charge distance for both is the same.
As for the FAQ, hardly anyone uses Drop Pods anyways so a little bonus to help them achieve an alpha-strike as intended by the fluff is a welcome thing.
1-2 Drop Pods being turn 1, and not synergizing with the SMCC threats, pushes Drop Pods towards being about positioning/leverage. Which is exactly what they should be.
A Tac Squad in the right place keeps a vehicle from going there, or holds a point, or demands a response from the enemy.
Perhaps not enough, but Tac Marines not measuring up is a whole other discussion.
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
I'm pretty happy with being able to deliver basic marines, but it's true that we can no longer deliver things like Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts. I would have hoped I could still drop Boxnaughts, at least. It's unclear to me why they removed those options, although the model does look really cool with all the brace-bars for power armor in there. Jump packs get too Deep Strike anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. It used to be that you'd take a Pod in order to get reliable Deep Strike, but now there's no mishaps so it's not a big deal.
The major benefit of the Pod currently is that you can't Auspex Scan or Forewarn against the models disembarking the Pod, which is pretty nifty.
Honestly I don't think that is fair or intended. Just GW not understanding how their game works and giving answers in FAQ on the fly.
If it got access to turn 1 DS - no being able to put a unit with a Jump pack in their is a big deal. Cause that unit isn't going far after that first drop. It kind of mandates you use shooting.
Why does it mandate shooting? The charge distance for both is the same.
As for the FAQ, hardly anyone uses Drop Pods anyways so a little bonus to help them achieve an alpha-strike as intended by the fluff is a welcome thing.
Because a 9 inch charge isn't happening most the time. Shoot units are more reliable and can act after the first turn. A unit of vanguards without JP for example I can just move away from and ignore all game. To be a viable melle unit - you can't move 6" with no double move or advance and charge ability. Marines have...none of that. WOW. Amazing how marines have no good abilities and struggle competitively.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
Honestly the game needs random reserves rule again. Deepstrike grants immunity from damage from opponent until the turn after they arrive, which means they ALWAYS have a chance to have a full round which frankly, no unit in the game has. A strong ability like that NEEDS to come with heavy cost.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 18:47:18
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
So you consider
Orks/Necrons/TS (all have turn 1 DS ability) Choas (warptime) Eldar (Quicken) DE (24" advance and charge with jetbikes) Nids (swarm command). All of that is unfair and should be removed to level the playing field?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
So you consider
Orks/Necrons/TS (all have turn 1 DS ability) Choas (warptime) Eldar (Quicken) DE (24" advance and charge with jetbikes) Nids (swarm command). All of that is unfair and should be removed to level the playing field?
Being able to charge across the battlefield in 1 turn is very, very distinct from starting out 9" away from opponent. As for those turn 1 DS, which are you referring to?
And yes, I stand by that if you can appear 9" away from your opponent, there should be a chance to be retaliated upon other than a measly stratagem.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/05/01 19:17:26
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
So you consider
Orks/Necrons/TS (all have turn 1 DS ability) Choas (warptime) Eldar (Quicken) DE (24" advance and charge with jetbikes) Nids (swarm command). All of that is unfair and should be removed to level the playing field?
Being able to charge across the battlefield in 1 turn is very, very distinct from starting out 9" away from opponent. As for those turn 1 DS, which are you referring to?
And yes, I stand by that if you can appear 9" away from your opponent, there should be a chance to be retaliated upon other than a measly stratagem.
I agree that that is uncool and doesn't make for good game play.
There are only 2 ways to fix that though. Take it away from everyone. Or give it to everyone. It's not fair (balanced) for some armies to be able to control the game with turn 1 mobility and others not be able to.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bharring wrote: Or accept that different armies have different strengths and weaknesses and balance accordingly.
Or should we bump all Guard and Eldar up to T4 because Marines get T4 on *their* basic troops?
Sorry no. There is no reason to accept these things because they aren't strengths and weaknesses. It's literally restricting abilities for no reason at all.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Bharring wrote: So because the Imperial Knight codex is basically immune to Morale, Guard and Orkz should be, too?
Because Marines have an Lt that grants a reroll-Wounds aura, Eldar and Guard should get it too?
Do we need to add Psykers to the DE book, despite the fluff, just because Librarians exist?
Just about every army has an ignore morale ability. Not to mention the basic stratagem that allows you to ignore morale. This is a really bad example for your arugement.
The DE don't have psykers true. What do psykers do those? They generate mortal wounds and buff and Debuff units which the DE army has access to all 3 of these abilities. They also have the ability to kill psykers with special abilities.
Eldar and Gaurd both have access to reroll wounds mechanics. Eldar have doom (one of the best spells in the whole game) and gaurd have a relic that does it. They also have a lot of abilities that increase their hitting too...hitting and wounding are all part of the same mechanic called (doing damage) IG do damage just fine. Second to none actaully.
When it comes to mobility on turn 1. Marines are seriously lacking. Compared to other armies. In all honesty it is one of the main reasons the struggle so much. turn 1 drop pods (esp if they were allowed to carry units they should be able too like intercessors and hellblasters) the army would function a lot better. In fact - marines are seriously lacking the abilities to deep strike the units they need to because the drop pods cost is so prohibiative.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You also can't put models in with jump packs, or bikes, or primaris units. Basically - the units it can carry suck.
I'm pretty happy with being able to deliver basic marines, but it's true that we can no longer deliver things like Terminators, Centurions and Dreadnoughts. I would have hoped I could still drop Boxnaughts, at least. It's unclear to me why they removed those options, although the model does look really cool with all the brace-bars for power armor in there. Jump packs get too Deep Strike anyways, so it's not that big of a deal. It used to be that you'd take a Pod in order to get reliable Deep Strike, but now there's no mishaps so it's not a big deal.
The major benefit of the Pod currently is that you can't Auspex Scan or Forewarn against the models disembarking the Pod, which is pretty nifty.
Honestly I don't think that is fair or intended. Just GW not understanding how their game works and giving answers in FAQ on the fly.
If it got access to turn 1 DS - no being able to put a unit with a Jump pack in their is a big deal. Cause that unit isn't going far after that first drop. It kind of mandates you use shooting.
Why does it mandate shooting? The charge distance for both is the same.
As for the FAQ, hardly anyone uses Drop Pods anyways so a little bonus to help them achieve an alpha-strike as intended by the fluff is a welcome thing.
Because a 9 inch charge isn't happening most the time. Shoot units are more reliable and can act after the first turn. A unit of vanguards without JP for example I can just move away from and ignore all game. To be a viable melle unit - you can't move 6" with no double move or advance and charge ability. Marines have...none of that. WOW. Amazing how marines have no good abilities and struggle competitively.
The scenario you are describing is that you want to put 5 (becasue Jump Packs would likely take up two spaces) 1W power armored guys into a Pod to land near the enemy and expect them to last a turn before charging down your opponent? I mean, if they're threatening at all and worth putting in a 65 point pod AND spending more points on Jump Packs that would also allow a deep strike. . . you've sunk a lot of points into a squad you're not expecting to do any damage the turn they come down, and that the opponent can counter with relative ease. I think that's enough of an edge case that I'd give it a *shrug*.
I'm not against allowing Jump Pack guys in a Pod, mind you, the scenario you chose is just. . . odd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
Honestly the game needs random reserves rule again. Deepstrike grants immunity from damage from opponent until the turn after they arrive, which means they ALWAYS have a chance to have a full round which frankly, no unit in the game has. A strong ability like that NEEDS to come with heavy cost.
I feel you. Drop Pods in the past have certainly at times been "rude". I think that, given the inherent limitations currently in place (limited to just basic power-armored guys), and the potential of further limiting it's use by way of being a Stratagem (so either only 1 or 2 Pods could be deployed in this way), I think there's a case to be made for a first turn strike.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/05/01 22:34:40
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
I (sort of) hate to bring this up here because it's not really what the thread is about, and yet it relates directly to this line of thinking.
This is only really and issue because of IGOUGO. Drop podding and deepstriking mass units on turn 1 is only as big of an issue as it is because you are immune to your opponents entire army and get to act as part of your entire army getting right up in their grill.
If the game functioned on Alternating Unit Activations (with the understanding that activating a unit that is transporting also activates the unit inside if they want to disembark and act or shoot out of gun ports or whatever), then turn 1 deepstrikes would be a very interesting tactical choice. First, you can hold them in reserve until the very end and have them be your last activations. Or you can drop them when the opponent moves a particular unit and makes an opening for a choice target. Or it can be your first activation to throw some gak in their face as an immediate distraction. Regardless, the opponent gets to respond which is what really makes it incredibly fair and 100% okay for all deepstrikes to occur when ever the feth you want them to.
IGOUGO is once again the root cause of pretty much all the problems with the game.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
I (sort of) hate to bring this up here because it's not really what the thread is about, and yet it relates directly to this line of thinking.
This is only really and issue because of IGOUGO. Drop podding and deepstriking mass units on turn 1 is only as big of an issue as it is because you are immune to your opponents entire army and get to act as part of your entire army getting right up in their grill.
If the game functioned on Alternating Unit Activations (with the understanding that activating a unit that is transporting also activates the unit inside if they want to disembark and act or shoot out of gun ports or whatever), then turn 1 deepstrikes would be a very interesting tactical choice. First, you can hold them in reserve until the very end and have them be your last activations. Or you can drop them when the opponent moves a particular unit and makes an opening for a choice target. Or it can be your first activation to throw some gak in their face as an immediate distraction. Regardless, the opponent gets to respond which is what really makes it incredibly fair and 100% okay for all deepstrikes to occur when ever the feth you want them to.
IGOUGO is once again the root cause of pretty much all the problems with the game.
Deepstrike, as 8th edition aludes to, is a form of reinforcement. Reinforcement is counter attack and relief. How deep strike is being used throughout the history of 40k is more akin to an ambush.
skchsan wrote: The game doesn't need "OH I'M IN YOUR FACE IN TURN ONE" mechanisms. It needs more solidified terrain rules and specific required/recommended amount per game.
That is what this game is though. You'd have to fundamentally change every faction to get what you want. That's fine with me but it's never going to happen. Drop pods however is an easy fix to give marines some in your face potential.
The only way turn 1 deepstrike can be made fair is if it occurred at the end of morale phase.
I (sort of) hate to bring this up here because it's not really what the thread is about, and yet it relates directly to this line of thinking.
This is only really and issue because of IGOUGO. Drop podding and deepstriking mass units on turn 1 is only as big of an issue as it is because you are immune to your opponents entire army and get to act as part of your entire army getting right up in their grill.
If the game functioned on Alternating Unit Activations (with the understanding that activating a unit that is transporting also activates the unit inside if they want to disembark and act or shoot out of gun ports or whatever), then turn 1 deepstrikes would be a very interesting tactical choice. First, you can hold them in reserve until the very end and have them be your last activations. Or you can drop them when the opponent moves a particular unit and makes an opening for a choice target. Or it can be your first activation to throw some gak in their face as an immediate distraction. Regardless, the opponent gets to respond which is what really makes it incredibly fair and 100% okay for all deepstrikes to occur when ever the feth you want them to.
IGOUGO is once again the root cause of pretty much all the problems with the game.
Deepstrike, as 8th edition aludes to, is a form of reinforcement. Reinforcement is counter attack and relief. How deep strike is being used throughout the history of 40k is more akin to an ambush.
And in AA it can be both a reinforcement and/or a Ambush as the controlling player decides when and how to best use it. Just saying. All the first turn bs goes away real fast when IGOUGO is off the table.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
^There are ways to mitigate 1st turn strike within IGOUGO, one of them is more terrain to block LOS (and/or better terrain rules), or allow/force armies to bring on reserves in a more volountary fashion.
Having both armies fully deploy on boards without much LOS blocking terrain is a sure fire way to make going first more important.
Insectum7 wrote: ^There are ways to mitigate 1st turn strike within IGOUGO, one of them is more terrain to block LOS (and/or better terrain rules), or allow/force armies to bring on reserves in a more volountary fashion.
Having both armies fully deploy on boards without much LOS blocking terrain is a sure fire way to make going first more important.
I want good terrain rules too. But I also don't want it to be required to build 2-3 giant walls of terrain in order for the game to work. The game should allow for a mix of different mixes of terrain for a variety of different circumstances and still have the game be playable. IGOUGO is the problem. Patching it with walls of LOS blocking terrain is just that. A patch. The crack still exists.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Insectum7 wrote: ^There are ways to mitigate 1st turn strike within IGOUGO, one of them is more terrain to block LOS (and/or better terrain rules), or allow/force armies to bring on reserves in a more volountary fashion.
Having both armies fully deploy on boards without much LOS blocking terrain is a sure fire way to make going first more important.
I want good terrain rules too. But I also don't want it to be required to build 2-3 giant walls of terrain in order for the game to work. The game should allow for a mix of different mixes of terrain for a variety of different circumstances and still have the game be playable. IGOUGO is the problem. Patching it with walls of LOS blocking terrain is just that. A patch. The crack still exists.
Better terrain rules and corresponding pieces/setup would not require you to build walls of terrain, 4th edition had some excellent terrain rules that provided for good maneuvering on well-varied boards. Forests could be safely passed through by infantry but blocked LOS beyond them, for example. In addition, playing with "Omega" level rules gave the freedom to hold forces in reserve to retain a longer "opening game".
Regardless, the first-turn-strike suggestion of the thread is intended for the context of the current game. I think we can safely assume 40K will continue as IGOUGO for a while.
Eldar and Gaurd both have access to reroll wounds mechanics. Eldar have doom (one of the best spells in the whole game) and gaurd have a relic that does it. They also have a lot of abilities that increase their hitting too...hitting and wounding are all part of the same mechanic called (doing damage) IG do damage just fine. Second to none actaully.
DE used to have Doom the way Marines have 4ppm chaff. Now they have Doom the way Marines have WWP.
When it comes to mobility on turn 1. Marines are seriously lacking. Compared to other armies. In all honesty it is one of the main reasons the struggle so much. turn 1 drop pods (esp if they were allowed to carry units they should be able too like intercessors and hellblasters) the army would function a lot better. In fact - marines are seriously lacking the abilities to deep strike the units they need to because the drop pods cost is so prohibiative.
Marine mobility T1 is a bit worse than a couple Eldar variants and a little behind Chaos, but how do they compare to:
-Guard
-Necrons
-T'au
-GK -Corsairs
-IK
? They're not that bad off.
Now, I do like the idea of a pod or two full of Tacs or similar coming down T1, to help evoke the Marine philosophy (and, as I've stated before, I would like it if CWE specifically lost WWP), but Marines aren't - and shouldn't be - a faction that has all the strengths of all the other factions.
