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I'd really like to see Drop Pods being capable of deploying in the first turn either as an innate ability, or one that you could pay a CP (per pod) for. (Similar to Jormungandr being able to pay a point per unit to deploy units in tunnels)

A: It's an iconic Space Marine unit which has fallen (waaay) out of use. (cool model is sitting on shelves)
B: It'd be a unique ability that traditional power-armored marines could take advantage of. (internal codex balance)
C: It would provide a unique ability to Space Marines as a faction for the purposes of Imperial Soup armies. (external codex balance)

Lore-wise, Space Marines are often the shock-assault vanguard force than heralds conflict. Being able to Drop Pod in during the first turn would allow that to be a reality for competitive games in combined-force armies.

That's all. Thanks!

I could see a 1CP/2CP strat that could be used on T1 to bring in one/two 'Pods. That'd be cool.

I still think Pods need to go down in points, though.

deep striking a unit is not worth point even turn 1. THere are too many ways to get it done for a CP or a relic or whatever. Paying points to deep strike is overcosted no mater what.

^I almost don't even care about points, I just want to be able to DS turn one.

Flyrants ruined your fun.

Although to be honest, I don't find myself missing turn 1 deep strike all that much. How badly do you want to charge guardsmen?

Martel732 wrote:
Flyrants ruined your fun.

Although to be honest, I don't find myself missing turn 1 deep strike all that much. How badly do you want to charge guardsmen?

Rarely do I see more than 30-odd guardsmen.

I don't want it to be game-winning or anything, just a little extra something to potentially help me seize battle initiative, first strike, position or make the opponent be a bit more defensive if they go first.

I very, very badly want to charge Guardsmen with my Marines. Tactics be damned, I'm going to shoot them then charge them.

I'm enslaved to babysitters who don't get fancy charges if the unit gets a fancy charge.

I've moved to a place where 75% of the lists are horde of some type. Hell, there's two clones of the LVO winning list. Although I guess those will need reworked.

To me, the potential cargo of a drop pod, just like the cargo of a rhino or a stormraven, is garbage, so I'm not in a rush to get garbage on the other side of the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
I very, very badly want to charge Guardsmen with my Marines. Tactics be damned, I'm going to shoot them then charge them.

And then you are gonna die the next turn. Getting that close to IG is basically suicide.

Only if they're unsupported / I do it wrong.

Bharring wrote:
Only if they're unsupported / I do it wrong.

Support doesn't matter on your opponents shooting phase. There is no right or wrong. There is the IG picking up 40 one wound marines a turn.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^I almost don't even care about points, I just want to be able to DS turn one.

Well I agree that if anything should be able to do it for 74 points or less. The drop pod should be the first unit in the game to get it cause that has been it's roll since forever.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Only if they're unsupported / I do it wrong.

Support doesn't matter on your opponents shooting phase. There is no right or wrong. There is the IG picking up 40 one wound marines a turn.

If the survivors in the other 2 IS squads can remove 40 Marines in a turn (0 losses and FRFSRF or RF range and *godly* dice?), then it's a good thing I charged that one squad - otherwise I'm losing 60 Marines!

I'm talking about their army as a whole. But yes, being in FRFSRF range is usually pretty catastrophic.

Are we going to use this thread to complain about Guardsmen?

Because that really wan't the point.

Insert skitarri then. Or Ork boyz. Point is, with bolter discipline, I don't want to get so close so quickly anymore. Even with BA. Getting close is too hazardous for meqs. Paying points to get close seems nuts.

If marines could put in veteran intercessors, that might be more worthwhile.

Martel732 wrote:
Insert skitarri then. Or Ork boyz. Point is, with bolter discipline, I don't want to get so close so quickly anymore.

But I might in some circumstances. Are you against codifying the option for me to do so? If so, why?

No, drop pods should totally arrive turn 1 at their cost.

First turn charges need to be limited. If turn one charges become the counter to shooting armies then the game will depend on who gets the first turn. I know as a BA player it is not fun to struggle to get into combat. I also know as a IG player it is not fun to spend most of the game locked in combat.

Spending some CP to deepstrike T1 might be suitable. 1CP to deepstrike 1 drop pod T1; 3CP to deepstrike all drop pods T1? I am rusty on the rules though - I don't play often anymore - but if it enables your entire army to deepstrike T1 onto someones lap it will be too good.

Charges on 9+ are crap, though.

What if drop pods gave some sort of buff to units around them like....ignore cover? If you already ignore cover -1 AP.

There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Just orks, Necrons, TS, and almost everyone else has a double move which is even better. If anyone can do it = it should be marines. Considering they actually employ these tactics as doctrine.

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Why not? What would it even accomplish? Everything that fits in the pods is trash.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Just orks, Necrons, TS, and almost everyone else has a double move which is even better. If anyone can do it = it should be marines. Considering they actually employ these tactics as doctrine.

Fluff does not equal crunch. I don't care what the SM stories say. Nobody else fluff gets fully and acurately represented on the table, SM won't get it either. Double move is not deepstrike. I would love for my Jormungadr units to come up out of their tunnels on turn one since I both pay for delivery units and CP to put units in the tunnels but guess what? I can't. Just like everyone else.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Why not? What would it even accomplish? Everything that fits in the pods is trash.

I don't actually care what anyones opinion on how viable or not any of it is in the current meta. If nobody can deepstrike then NOBODY can deepstrike.

Honestly, just allow the cargo in a drop pod to ignore the 9" provision for reinforcements on disembark (or change it so that each model must be wholly within 3 inches of the drop pod) but cant move after disembarkation

Maybe even make it a 1 CP strategem so it can't be abused.
I've always felt that one of the marines biggest issues were delivery systems.

Things that this would buff:
Flamers
Meltas
ASM/Vanguard
CC Terminators
CC Dreadnoughts

Essentially any short-range weapon or assault unit can become a lot more viable and it allows for marines to have some decisive movement. It also doesn't over do it because drop pods have massive footprints even with closed doors. Meaning that screening is still an effective counter.

 Lance845 wrote:

Xenomancers wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Just orks, Necrons, TS, and almost everyone else has a double move which is even better. If anyone can do it = it should be marines. Considering they actually employ these tactics as doctrine.

Fluff does not equal crunch. I don't care what the SM stories say. Nobody else fluff gets fully and acurately represented on the table, SM won't get it either. Double move is not deepstrike. I would love for my Jormungadr units to come up out of their tunnels on turn one since I both pay for delivery units and CP to put units in the tunnels but guess what? I can't. Just like everyone else.

Martel732 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
There is no way SM should get to special snow flake deepstrike on turn 1 when nobody else can.

Why not? What would it even accomplish? Everything that fits in the pods is trash.

I don't actually care what anyones opinion on how viable or not any of it is in the current meta. If nobody can deepstrike then NOBODY can deepstrike.

Your argument is just SM hate. Practically every army has some form of of auto in your face turn 1. Space marines don't. Drop pods have done this previous editions but not this one. It makes no sense and has no balance issue because almost everyone else CAN do it.

It's not just SM hate. Just because the proposed rules forum is filled 50% with SM players asking for SM units to have special exceptions to do things and behave in ways that nobody else in the game does does not mean that I hate SM.

I think there are very valid complaints about SM. I think there are very valid fixes to SM. I think breaking whole game wide conventions is not the way to do it. TAC marines are a little expensive. The Drop pod is a LITTLE expensive. The things that SM units should be able to ride in and can't is bs but thats mostly because clearly when 9th rolls out regular marines are gunna get Squatted and GW is just slowly bringing you to boil on that.

SM do need an offensive boost (NOT a defensive one).

SM don't need to be able to mimic every trick from every other book. Just because MOST armies have A combination of units and/or psychic powers that COULD allow for a turn 1 charge doesn't mean SM can't be one of the armies that is in the list of combinations that doesn't.

You know who could deep strike turn 1 in previous editions? Everyone. What you could or could not do in previous editions doesn't matter. This isn't previous editions.

Stop asking to do wild gak nobody else is allowed to do. Start asking for practical fixes to the actual problems.

^Practical problem: Pods aren't used.
Practical problem: Many people feel that Space Marines aren't bringing value to soup.

Solution: Give Pods the turn 1 strike ability they've had (I think consistently) since they were introduced into 40k during 4th edition. Iirc, their unique place was that half of the pods didn't have to roll for reserves for entry. Not to mention they were able to Deep Strike safely by avoiding enemy units, another unique ability.

I'd argue that over a decade of "special deep strike" precedence makes this suggestion not "wild gak". It is also an offensive, rather than defensive solution.

 Insectum7 wrote:
^Practical problem: Pods aren't used.
Practical problem: Many people feel that Space Marines aren't bringing value to soup.

Solution: Give Pods the turn 1 strike ability they've had (I think consistently) since they were introduced into 40k during 4th edition. Iirc, their unique place was that half of the pods didn't have to roll for reserves for entry. Not to mention they were able to Deep Strike safely by avoiding enemy units, another unique ability.

I'd argue that over a decade of "special deep strike" precedence makes this suggestion not "wild gak". It is also an offensive, rather than defensive solution.

WHY are pods not used? The things that can ride in pods has been drastically reduced. The things that CAN ride in pods can't be accompanied by characters any more since characters don't join units any more. SM don't need to bring value to soup. They need to bring value to themselves.

Solution, make their capacity a number of models instead of a number of units. Then you can pack buffing characters into the pod with the units they want to buff.

Tyranid pods suffer a similar problem. You can't pack in nid warriors with a prime unless you want to buy an entire extra pod just for the prime. Whens the last time you saw a tyrannoctye on the table? This is a game wide issue. Not just a SM issue.

I would argue that if you want to make it so pods are usable then you should address their capacity and who can ride in them so that players want to fill them with things worth drop podding.

IIRC there is nothing stopping a character from being put in a pod alongside another unit as long as there is room. Even if you couldn't you could just give the characters a jumppack and they would be able to deepstrike within buff range AND have 12" move afterwards

So no, not being able to bring a buff character is not the issue with pods.

Dreadnoughts have to have a special forgeworld pod which is 2 points cheaper IIRC because it can't buy the stormbolter.

So again its not what the drop pods can't bring, because with the exception of dreadnoughts requiring Lucius pattern pods. Anything that you would want to accompany standard P.A marines can be there. Excluding Primaris, but thats an entire other can of worms.

Drop pods don't work because they cost as much as a rhino to put powered armor marines in positions where they can reliably leverage the shooting half of their options when they need to be reliably able to leverage shooting and assault options.

And even worse, if your playing against an assault army and have a drop pod on the field, forget shooting at whatever unit touches that drop pod as they pillow fist it at the end of their turn, kill it on yours, and move forward completely unmolested .
Here is another perspective. VVets cost 15 points now with CA, with jump packs they cost 17 points. That means that the ability to both move 12", Fly, AND be able to deepstrike is worth 20 points across a squad of ten. The drop pod cost around 70 IIRC.

Or another perspective, many armies can do what the drop pod can do better, for a command point. That's it.

So lets sum up why pods currently aren't used
1) They don't add sufficient value to the units embarked
2) They are a liability on the field for both killpoints and being taken hostage
3) They have poor internal balance, most units that both fit into a drop pod and want to be in assault have better ways of getting there.
4) They have poor external balance, compared to other abilities that place units into reserves (such as Webway portal/Tellyporta/ and even Lying in wait) they are overcosted and easier to screen against due to its footprint.

I don't see a way to rectify those issues without some special rule, because if you make drop pods cheap then all of a sudden you have the same issue with skyhammer were much of the board is simply cut off limits for a turn while you chew threw drop pods (especially with the new ruling on drop pod doors)