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My reading of the FAQ Flow Chart is to allow you to continue to use the models you own despite the wargear options/loadout no longer being in the Codex. This is because the Codex rules are designed to cover (for the most part) only options that GW currently produces in that model's box, with very limited kit-bashing options when GW randomly decides to allow them.

If you could take a model with wargear selections of X, Y, and Z in the index, you still can even if the Codex doesn't allow that wargear build out. Use the Codex Rules if possible for the cost and function of that wargear if possible, otherwise use those in the Index.

It is not intended as an expanded sandbox for selecting say, new options with old options to get a new optimized version of the model.

I agree with that. The argument here has been: "You can't go back to the Index version if the Codex allows you to take that wargear option."

 alextroy wrote:

If you could take a model with wargear selections of X, Y, and Z in the index, you still can even if the Codex doesn't allow that wargear build out. Use the Codex Rules if possible for the cost and function of that wargear if possible, otherwise use those in the Index.

Except if you are running Crisis Suits with Stimulant Injectors. Stims were a wargear option in the index (since they were a wargear option in the old codices) but removed as a wargear option in the codex. A Stimulant Injector stratagem was added in the Codex and per the FAQ you cannot buy the old stimulant injector wargear option using the index.

So, to generalise this, if the wargear option was removed and replaced by a stratagem instead, you cannot continue to use the wargear option from the index.

 flandarz wrote:
And that's fine. But we're talking old vs new here. Not the exact same datasheet. Here's a fictional example:

In the Index, Army Dude comes equipped with a knife and gun, but has the option to also take a flak vest. In the Codex, the Army dude comes equipped with a knife and gun, but then option to take a flak vest has been changed to "replace this model's knife with a flak vest." The old "take a flak vest" was not carried over to the new rules for the unit.

So the basic argument is: is it acceptable to use the old rules to get your flak vest, or do you need to use the new rules to get it? This isn't a case of the Big Bomm on Deff Koptas, where the wargear option didn't carry over at all. The "Army Dude" still has access to the flak vest, but with new rules on how to acquire it.

It's pretty clearly stated in the examples that the answer is "Yes".

For example, if you wished to use a Commissar with a power axe, you would check if the codex – Codex: Astra Militarum – has a datasheet for Commissars.
It does, so you would use this datasheet – however, it does not support the wargear options which allow him to replace his power sword with a power axe, so you would use the Commissar wargear options from Index: Imperium 2.
Similarly, as Codex: Astra Militarum does not have a weapon profile for the power axe, you would use the one found in Index: Imperium 2.

In previous editions, wargear swaps were complicated by having post costs associated with the swaps themselves, instead of the new system where you just pay for whatever you end up with.

As far as I can tell, the big result of that flowchart is:
* If you opened up a copy of the Index and built a model that was legal at the time, it's still legal.
* If you get a codex that no longer has that option, and want to build the same model, GW does not want to tell you that your model is now invalid.
And they (GW) don't want to deal with trying to police people based on when the model was put together.

As the Index books go out of print, I imagine they might reword or rethink that policy, probably suggesting that people make allowances to allow people to continue playing with their existing models as whatever approximating options remain. Or they may stick to their "That option is grandfathered in, even if we don't tell you about it now" policy.

If someone says "the flowchart only says that wargear gets special treatment", they need to sit down and listen to the "Read the entire rule, and don't stop in the middle" lecture a few times. They have four examples after the flowchart for a reason.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


Except if you are running Crisis Suits with Stimulant Injectors. Stims were a wargear option in the index (since they were a wargear option in the old codices) but removed as a wargear option in the codex. A Stimulant Injector stratagem was added in the Codex and per the FAQ you cannot buy the old stimulant injector wargear option using the index.

So, to generalise this, if the wargear option was removed and replaced by a stratagem instead, you cannot continue to use the wargear option from the index.

If the wargear option was replaced by a stratagem, then that should mean that there is no longer a point cost for the item. And there probably wasn't a distinct modeling option for that element.

For instance, in the Daemonette and Bloodletter boxes, there's two different "thing on stick" modeling options that have both been called "icon of chaos" in the past. And there's stratagems to upgrade those icons to other things.

At worst, it's a separate argument about how (or whether) you should represent pre-game stratagems on models.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
He only showed you an example to make sure you understood what he was talking about (and myself for that matter).

There is probably already something exactly like this in a codex already, its just not worth the time and effort to search through every printed material to find it.

There is. If i remember correctly there is something about some eldar unit and a mask that is in a very similar boat. When the eldar codex came out there was a big discussion about it with a lot of scratching heads.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 alextroy wrote:

If you could take a model with wargear selections of X, Y, and Z in the index, you still can even if the Codex doesn't allow that wargear build out. Use the Codex Rules if possible for the cost and function of that wargear if possible, otherwise use those in the Index.

Except if you are running Crisis Suits with Stimulant Injectors. Stims were a wargear option in the index (since they were a wargear option in the old codices) but removed as a wargear option in the codex. A Stimulant Injector stratagem was added in the Codex and per the FAQ you cannot buy the old stimulant injector wargear option using the index.

So, to generalise this, if the wargear option was removed and replaced by a stratagem instead, you cannot continue to use the wargear option from the index.

Every rule has exceptions. This is one of the few exceptions, which is why it has it's own FAQ entry to spell that out.

 flandarz wrote:
I agree with that. The argument here has been: "You can't go back to the Index version if the Codex allows you to take that wargear option."

The argument then boils down to what "wargear options" means, as that phrase is what allows you to go down the Index path on the flowchart. Would you consider being able to trade something in for something else a "wargear option"? Or are options only the pieces of wargear themselves?

I think you could make an argument for either definition. If someone says "The Index allows me to take a Storm Shield with no trade" but the Codex says "May trade a bolt pistol for a Storm Shield", then, by definition, the Index "option" is different, no?

The Flowchart says "Are there wargear options that only appear in the Index version?" The answer to that question would be yes, because "You may take a Storm Shield." is a different option than "May trade a bolt pistol for a Storm Shield."


For what it's worth, I tend to disagree with this line of thinking. I believe that an option represents the wargear itself, which sides with your quoted text. But I don't think I'd have a good argument against someone who used the above logic to build out their unit, if such wording even exists that allows them to.

Since the flowchart is only even in existance for allowing models that have gear the codex no longer allows, you cannot use the index to gain anything if the codex also allows you to get it in some way.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Since the flowchart is only even in existance for allowing models that have gear the codex no longer allows, you cannot use the index to gain anything if the codex also allows you to get it in some way.

I agree with the spirit of what you're saying, but I have to agree with DeathReaper in that that's not what the flowchart actually says.

In all of the books that I have access to, on a data sheet you have:

- a stat line
- a description of the standard equipment
- the model's weapon profiles
- a section with the title "Wargear Options"

Coincidentally, the flowchart says (copy paste, it's GW's caps)

USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX, THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES)

If someone is arguing that they can use both the index and codex wargear options for the same model/unit at the same time, I think that's all sorts of wrong.

You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

 solkan wrote:


You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think we'd also be hard-pressed to find a situation where this matters all that much. I mean, I'm willing to learn, but I'm not going to scour all the Indices to find one or two examples of where the aforementioned hypotheticals might actually apply.

 solkan wrote:
You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Citation needed. because the flowchart does not say that.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 solkan wrote:
You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Citation needed. because the flowchart does not say that.

Exact quote (copy&paste from the document, thus the caps):
USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR
MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN
CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR
ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF
THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX,
THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES).

So basically, you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both.

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 solkan wrote:
You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Citation needed. because the flowchart does not say that.

Exact quote (copy&paste from the document, thus the caps):
USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR
MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN
CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR
ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF
THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX,
THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES).

So basically, you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both.

That is not what that says. You are not locked into one or the other, and nothing in that rule says "you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both."

If you are allowed to take a Stormshield in the index but not in the codex, you can simply take the Stormshield from the index and the rest of the options from the codex.

is this actually an issue anywhere? As in "I HAVE to use both Codex and Index options to build a unit that's not obviously unintended - such as 2 Stormshields and 3 Missile Launchers on a single Infantry model"?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 solkan wrote:
You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Citation needed. because the flowchart does not say that.

Exact quote (copy&paste from the document, thus the caps):
USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR
MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN
CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR
ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF
THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX,
THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES).

So basically, you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both.

That is not what that says. You are not locked into one or the other, and nothing in that rule says "you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both."

If you are allowed to take a Stormshield in the index but not in the codex, you can simply take the Stormshield from the index and the rest of the options from the codex.

If you use the index version of a datasheet it has none of the options the codex has. You are directly violating the flowchart by mixing index-only options with codex-only options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
is this actually an issue anywhere? As in "I HAVE to use both Codex and Index options to build a unit that's not obviously unintended - such as 2 Stormshields and 3 Missile Launchers on a single Infantry model"?

One example would be a plague marine champion. In the index it had access to combi-plasma while the codex gets a plasma gun. If you mix the options you could build a champion having both plasma gun and combi-plasma to have a fourth plasma gun in your plague marine unit.

You dont use the index version of the datasheet unless it is the most recent version. You would use the codex version of the datasheet but can still get weapons from the index datasheet because of the flowchart.

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

 Jidmah wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nekooni wrote:
is this actually an issue anywhere? As in "I HAVE to use both Codex and Index options to build a unit that's not obviously unintended - such as 2 Stormshields and 3 Missile Launchers on a single Infantry model"?

One example would be a plague marine champion. In the index it had access to combi-plasma while the codex gets a plasma gun. If you mix the options you could build a champion having both plasma gun and combi-plasma to have a fourth plasma gun in your plague marine unit.

And that's exactly what I meant when I said "3 Missile launchers on a single infantry model"
I agree that you can do it if you mix both codex and index options, but it's clearly not meant to do that. It's meant to allow you to run either a plasma gun or a combi-plasma.

But wasn't sequentially exchanging war gear prohibited, or was this back in 7th? The only way your example seems to work is if you swap both bolt gun and Pistol for a bolt gun and combi plasma, then swap the bolt gun again for a plasma gun - but I couldn't find the champion equipment list anywhere online so I'm not sure on that either


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

How does that even work though? The stormshields requires you to trade in a storm Bolter you don't have on the codex sheet. So you need to start with the index default loadout meaning a force weapon and a stormbolter. If you swap the Bolter for a combi melta through the index options and then just slap on another combi melta from the codex options (since that doesn't require a trade in) you end up with two combi melta and a force weapon - clearly not intended.
In the index you get either a storm bolter, a combi weapon or a storm shield, plus a force weapon of your choice.
The flowchart exists so you can bring one of those load outs to a post-Codex release table. They're not meant for you to have 2 combi weapons and a melee weapon.

So since the RAI and one way of reading the rules match up, I'd favor the "use the index wargear section Or the codex one, but not both at the same time". HIWPI, obviously.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

How does that even work though? The stormshields requires you to trade in a storm Bolter you don't have on the codex sheet. So you need to start with the index default loadout meaning a force weapon and a stormbolter. If you swap the Bolter for a combi melta through the index options and then just slap on another combi melta from the codex options (since that doesn't require a trade in) you end up with two combi melta and a force weapon - clearly not intended.
In the index you get either a storm bolter, a combi weapon or a storm shield, plus a force weapon of your choice.
The flowchart exists so you can bring one of those load outs to a post-Codex release table. They're not meant for you to have 2 combi weapons and a melee weapon.

So since the RAI and one way of reading the rules match up, I'd favor the "use the index wargear section Or the codex one, but not both at the same time". HIWPI, obviously.

It requires that you take a Storm Bolter from the terminator combi weapons list then trade it for the storm shield.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It requires that you take a Storm Bolter from the terminator combi weapons list then trade it for the storm shield.

I see - but that'd mean you clearly can't take something off of the combi weapon list again, right? I guess I just interpreted too much into this:

he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

nekooni wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
It requires that you take a Storm Bolter from the terminator combi weapons list then trade it for the storm shield.

I see - but that'd mean you clearly can't take something off of the combi weapon list again, right? I guess I just interpreted too much into this:

he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

You use the most recent datasheet found in Codex: BA and see that you can get a stormbolter.

then you look at the index Datasheet and see that you can trade your stormbolter for a Stormshield.

That is how you get the Stormshield. (having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex means you need to grab a stormbolter to trade for a stormshield. Sorry if that was unclear).

 DeathReaper wrote:
You dont use the index version of the datasheet unless it is the most recent version. You would use the codex version of the datasheet but can still get weapons from the index datasheet because of the flowchart.

The flowchart literally tells you to use the index datasheet for wargear. You cannot just paraphrase that.

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

Wrong. You can chose to select your librarian's wargear from the index datasheet OR the codex datasheet. You know, just like the flowchart says.

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You dont use the index version of the datasheet unless it is the most recent version. You would use the codex version of the datasheet but can still get weapons from the index datasheet because of the flowchart.

The flowchart literally tells you to use the index datasheet for wargear. You cannot just paraphrase that.

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

Wrong. You can chose to select your librarian's wargear from the index datasheet OR the codex datasheet. You know, just like the flowchart says.

If that were correct, then the Blood Angel Librarian could not have a stormshield at all since you need to use the codex daatsheet, which does not include a Stormbolter, and use the option on the codex daatsheet to purchase a Stormbolter, then use the option on the Index datasheet to swap that Stormbolter for a Stormshield.

Clearly it is not what I have stated that is wrong.

Plus you need to use the most recent rules and Datasheets, and the flowchart lets you take options from the Index.

"Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You dont use the index version of the datasheet unless it is the most recent version. You would use the codex version of the datasheet but can still get weapons from the index datasheet because of the flowchart.

The flowchart literally tells you to use the index datasheet for wargear. You cannot just paraphrase that.

Take the Blood Angel librarian in terminator armor, he does not have the option for a Stormshield in the Blood Angels Codex, but he has one in the Index, so he can still get a stormshield while having the option to take "an item from the Terminator Combi-weapons list" from the Codex.

Wrong. You can chose to select your librarian's wargear from the index datasheet OR the codex datasheet. You know, just like the flowchart says.

If that were correct, then the Blood Angel Librarian could not have a stormshield at all since you need to use the codex daatsheet, which does not include a Stormbolter, and use the option on the codex daatsheet to purchase a Stormbolter, then use the option on the Index datasheet to swap that Stormbolter for a Stormshield.

Clearly GW intends us to not just use the section "wargear options" but simply all the options for wargear, since it doesn't make sense to allow weapons swaps without providing the same base equipment to swap out.
The clear intention is that old models still have rules despite not being in the codex. Your interpretation does not support that, since it would break any unit that has changed base equipment compared to the index.

Plus you need to use the most recent rules and Datasheets, and the flowchart lets you take options from the Index.

"Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex."

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

The newest rules and points for a index only datasheets are found in the index, errata and/or chapter approved. There are multiple examples which prove that you cannot simply take an equipment list from another book.
So, unless you agree that GreyKnights must use the armory lists from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, your argument for using armory lists from different books is void.

 Jidmah wrote:

The newest rules and points for a index only datasheets are found in the index, errata and/or chapter approved. There are multiple examples which prove that you cannot simply take an equipment list from another book.
So, unless you agree that GreyKnights must use the armory lists from Codex: Chaos Space Marines, your argument for using armory lists from different books is void.

A technical point here - you would use codex (or Chapter Approved) points for weapons, only using the index points if it's a weapon that's not in the codex. They have clearly stated that.

Your last argument is nonsensical. Using a list from the codex whose faction your model is not remotely the same thing as saying you can use any list in any codex. The false equivalency there is absurd.

RAI, I agree with you in general as the flowchart was made to be able to play models you have with old options that aren't in the current codex, not mix and match to make new hybrid versions. That said, the RAW of what they say could be read either way. I'd urge caution as it's certainly possible that GW will sometime in the future disallow taking index wargear options, or at least bar it from their official events and possibly make it narrative and open play only. Still, if your group is okay with playing mix 'n' match with the index and codex options then have fun! That's what the game's for. For such things a word with your opponent beforehand might be warranted to make sure he's cool with it and doesn't see it as a nasty surprise being sprung on him.

 Jidmah wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 solkan wrote:
You can use either block of Wargear Options, but you have to choose one or the other.

Citation needed. because the flowchart does not say that.

Exact quote (copy&paste from the document, thus the caps):
USE THE CODEX VERSION OF YOUR
MODEL’S DATASHEET, BUT YOU CAN
CHOOSE TO USE THE INDEX VERSION FOR
ITS WARGEAR OPTIONS (NOTE THAT IF
THE WARGEAR HAS RULES IN THE CODEX,
THESE REPLACE THE INDEX RULES).

So basically, you chose whether you use the index datasheet for wargear options or the codex datasheet for wargear options, not both.

Time out. Can you give us a link to the document containing these words?

I would like to believe Index models can take wargear options from the Codex, but I've not seen that text anywhere.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Time out. Can you give us a link to the document containing these words?

I would like to believe Index models can take wargear options from the Codex, but I've not seen that text anywhere.

It used to be the Designer's Commentary. GW has with their latest update incorporated it into the Main Rulebook FAQ. The flowchart should be on the last page of the document.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Time out. Can you give us a link to the document containing these words?

I would like to believe Index models can take wargear options from the Codex, but I've not seen that text anywhere.

Rulebook FAQ, last page.

Gw should have never allowed you to back pedal. New datasheet replaces the old. Options that get cut get cut. They opened up a whirlwind of imbalance and total nonsense by allowing this.

 Lance845 wrote:
Gw should have never allowed you to back pedal. New datasheet replaces the old. Options that get cut get cut. They opened up a whirlwind of imbalance and total nonsense by allowing this.

you and the horse you rode in on. Pretty much every eldar player who’s been in longer than the 7e bandwagon is happy there is a way of preserving what autarchs are actually supposed to be, and not the fixed-loadout garbage in the codex.

Similarly, would you like to tell all the white scars players with full fluffy bike lists “too bad”? deprecation was the mistake, not the flowchart