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Longtime Dakkanaut





RevlidRas wrote:
Absolutely, yes. Kill Team, 8e, and Apocalypse aren't just about "small games", "medium games", and "large games", they're very different approaches to how the game is played, what units do, how resources and characteristics are differentiated, how you win, and so on.

I'd like a 500 point "Combat Patrol" system, for example, that focuses much more on movement and area control than 8e, incorporating the slower pace and emphasis on range of Kill Team, along with elements of Apocalypse's Commands and control radius. That has the potential to be a completely different game, even while using the same basic "skeleton" as 8e like Kill Team does.

Or, hell, you could go even further than Kill Team and introduce a "Duel"-level game where each player controls a single model, with much more differentiated actions each model could take each phase. Imagine a Succubus facing down a Crisis Commander in a burning T'au ruin, each one taking actions like Dodge, Parry, Feint, Flurry, Power Strike, Aim, and so on.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-Team is NOT 40K. It´s a poor man´s Necromunda.
Kill Team uses the same models, factions, setting, and basic rules as 40k 8e. You can literally take a squad from your 8e army and use them in Kill Team, and aside from Morale and Charging the core rules are basically the same, too. If that's not 40k, Apocalypse sure as hell isn't 40k.

(also, Necromunda badly needed a proper rules update, not just the HD re-release it got)


Okay, try taking a LRBT into your next Kill-Team game and post in this thread how it worked out.
   
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So far I didn't get what's the problem of just playing 1000pts games? It's the only tournament format I've played in yet and it worked just fine.
With the new Apokalypse I'd even say it could become my go-to-system for games from 1750 points onwards, as 2000pts need quite long under the current 40k rules set. It will depend on Mission and terrain Design, though.
   
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HoundsofDemos wrote:
The issue with kill team is that it has so many artificial restrictions due to GW's post Chapter House decision. Go look at how only certain scouts can take camo cloaks entirely based on weapon options or another entirely arbitrarily determined choices due to what kit has what option in it.

I looked at the old third edition witch hunter book today since I kept all my older books and it makes me sad how many options got pulled even from what should be a squad level game.
This is especially egregious for Kill Team, a game that is supposedly all about customizing your own team and representing your own personal models and "out there" band of unlikely heroes or strange elites. It's painful to compare relatively customizable factions to factions with less fortunate plastic box sets. It's at its worst when you're dealing with Chaos - check out the 3e CSM book and look up that fat wargear list, packed with everything from mutations to daemonic gifts to "spiky bitz". In Kill Team I can't even give someone a tentacle except to represent the fact that he's a Combat Specialist.

 Strg Alt wrote:
 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-Team is NOT 40K. It´s a poor man´s Necromunda.
Revlid wrote:Kill Team uses the same models, factions, setting, and basic rules as 40k 8e. You can literally take a squad from your 8e army and use them in Kill Team, and aside from Morale and Charging the core rules are basically the same, too. If that's not 40k, Apocalypse sure as hell isn't 40k.


Okay, try taking a LRBT into your next Kill-Team game and post in this thread how it worked out.
Thank you for letting everyone know how seriously to take you.

But you have a point. I can't take a Lord Of Skulls to a 500pt 8e game, after all, so I guess that's not 40k, either.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/07/02 01:34:44


 
   
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 Sir Heckington wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think that is where you as wargamers come in. You can't turn up and play a balanced game easily at that level you need to turn up, chat about the scenario, make sure the armies have a fair chance based on the terrain, objectives and opposition and then go at it.


Exactly. You can absolutely agree force composition and game parameters ahead of time to get the game you both want. Not everything has to be 2K Matched Play Organised Event Rules CA2018 (sorry to break it to ya, Dakka!).


Correct. You can indeed do this, however that does not change that 40k has rather lackluster rules as is. (Which is a shame, as GW is showing that they can make better rulesets and have a game with kickass models and lore)


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Aash wrote:
I started playing 40k when it was more of a skirmish game in 2nd edition and enjoyed the 40k in 40 minutes and combat patrol formats of previous editions. Is there anyone else that would like to see this scale of game make a come-back?

Yes, me. My craving for a 40K fix still lies with my 2nd Edition 40K past.

Aash wrote:
Essentially what I'm asking is does anyone else like or miss these smaller scale games, 2 or 3 squads, one character, maybe one tank/walker etc. and how would you feel about a new rule set, somewhere in between kill team and 40k for games of this scale?

I see the Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer (8th Edition) and the Indicies for 8th Edition 40K as enough rules from GW. So, no, I do not see the necessity for a new rule set. However, I can see an additional layer of a small set of rules on top of the Warhammer 40,000 Battle Primer (8th Edition). Just remember, I have not played 8th Edition 40K.

My interest is in the miniatures (Cadians, Catachans, Ork Boyz, Chaos Cultists, Genestealer Cult Hybrids, Necron Warriors, and Kroot Carnivores, for example), and a small set of the models (Rhino, Chimera, Goliath Truck, and Leman Russ Battle Tank, for example). Thus, I would rather own 1,000 points of 10 factions, then 10,000 points of 1 faction.

For play, I want to embrace diversity, but not at the expense of game balance.
   
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Nvs wrote:
Absolutely. I really wish GW had a viable points system balanced around the 750-1000pt range.

If their rules system was truly balanced (or at least a mild attempt to balance it), we should be able to scale the rules system to all points ranges.

Then we could have a 'Kill Team' ruleset that uses the base 40k rules but may have 1 or 2 unique limitations (limit 1 Elite or HQ, 1HQ and 1Troop mandatory type thing). This could then be scaled up to Apocalypse where HQ and Elites were 2:1 or something.

But anything would be fine... I do really miss the 1000pt games.


As long as they use:
  • A Force Org Chart with must-takes

  • Low count High Price Elite and High Count Low Price Horde armies


  • They can't balance at every point level. Do you know what a 500 point SM Battalion list looks like? Boring and incomplete is what it looks like. A Captain and a Lieutenant with 20 Intercessors spread across three squads. Do you know what a 500 point IG army looks like? The Loyal 32 and 320 points of goodies like a Leman Russ, and a Valkyrie.

    Sub 200 even the Guard will have a tough time filling out a list using normal rules.

    Go too far the other way, and I'm going to stop caring about 5CP Battalions, and start filling out with specialist detachments and my specialist units are going to be able to overtake yours - hopefully before we get to the point that your hordes won't even fit in your deployment area.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    fresus wrote:
    I think the main issue with 40K at the 500pts scale is that many factions can only bring 3-4 units, which isn't that great. IG vs GSC would be fun at this scale, but a custodes, or even a primaris player, has to sink most of its points in the basic HQ+troop.
    To fix that I would do two things:
    - Change min-squad sizes to be based on points: if a units has enough models to cost like 75pts, then it doesn't need to add more models, even if it didn't reach its normal min-squad size. That allows people to still bring many different toys, without having to sink half their points in a single unit.
    - Remove the requirement for HQs in detachment. That's mostly for factions that only have expensive HQs.


    This was Kill Teams/Warbands (The Warhammer Fantasy version of Kill Teams) of old. You could do some pretty wacky stuff that way.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Ice_can wrote:
    the only reason Apocolyse was released was people complaining that 40k is still too slow to play at 2k+.




    I don't understand that. I want to have fun playing an all afternoon if Chess, and Model Railroading had a baby game, but I hate that it takes all afternoon. Meh, mine is not the only way of doing things, but I still don't get it.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     JohnnyHell wrote:

    Exactly. You can absolutely agree force composition and game parameters ahead of time to get the game you both want. Not everything has to be 2K Matched Play Organised Event Rules CA2018 (sorry to break it to ya, Dakka!).


    But you do have to play at a points level where the "choices" aren't made for you, and each player gets enough toy soldiers to feel like they're playing with enough. Even if you play the Loyal 32, a LRBT, and a Valkyrie at 500, and offer to let me have 5+ CP and pick 500 points of whatever I want regardless of Force Org out of Codex SM, I'm still not going to be able to put enough tiny men with enough variety on the field - let alone let them have their own tank and a plane to pal around with. At 500 and no Force Org, I could take Gulliman and something maybe Telion - and I'd probably be fairly competitive even with the LRBT. But it's still going to be my one toy soldier for a minute and a half every 10-20 minutes in between you playing with 35.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Strg Alt wrote:


    Okay, try taking a LRBT into your next Kill-Team game and post in this thread how it worked out.


    I didn't take an LRBT, but I did take a Steam Tank in 500 point Warbands. It was actually kind of fun/funny. LRBT mileage may vary of course but the Steam Tank didn't really do much so it was more entertaining than game breaking.

    This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/07/02 11:09:09


    My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings. 
       
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    I think there is scope for some kind of RPG to be used with the miniatures. We find Blackstone Fortress units being forced into 40K clumsily, but really it should be 40K models being put into Blackstone Fortress (or another RPG game). There is definitely scope for another game.

    At the moment, for me at least a 2k point army takes a little too long. I do prefer smaller battles, but I only have a few hours to play sometimes so that's hard.

     
       
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    Morgan Hill, CA

     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.

       
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    cvtuttle wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.


    To be fair, he is saying that within his group that is the case. He could be alluding to being the case in general too, but that would be reading into what was written more than what was actually written there.

    There is certainly a space between full 40k and Kill team for a game to exist where that is more square footage than Kill Team but maybe less than full 40k (unless you follow the smaller point table size rules) where fast attack and some heavy support/dedicated transports exist. Basically Combat Patrol or much earlier versions of 40k. That said, I don't see the space being large enough to be commercially viable. Probably better to either play smaller point games of full 40k or come up with rules to scale up Kill Team a little bit more. Both having their disadvantages with 40k perhaps feeling a little too swingy and Kill Team being extra work especially in converting stratagems into tactics.

       
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    I don't know anybody who is buying into Apoc to play massive games. Everyone I speak to is buying Apoc to play regular old 40k with better rules. It functions pretty well at the 1500-2500 point equivalent. I think the game has a lot of life in that. The 6 missions it comes with are nothing great to me, but it comes with a mission generator and a bunch of alternate rules to spice up games in the back of the book.

    Honestly, if it never sees another release, good. The game as it is now has all it needs to be functional. More releases would probably just start degrading it.


    These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

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    cvtuttle wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.


    Or you could read what I posted, which was about *my group only*. Don’t be an edgelord needlessly. No part of my post stated or implied my experience was universal. So can it.

    Apocalypse is not the kind of game that has ever had a sustained, regular player base. They get a bit of excitement, but organising multiple people with vast armies is a logistical headache. It’s a once or twice a year thing for a group, at best. I don’t doubt people who play it enjoy it. But tell me I’m wrong about the logistics of Apocalypse...

     Stormonu wrote:
    For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
     
       
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     JohnnyHell wrote:
    cvtuttle wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.


    Or you could read what I posted, which was about *my group only*. Don’t be an edgelord needlessly. No part of my post stated or implied my experience was universal. So can it.

    Apocalypse is not the kind of game that has ever had a sustained, regular player base. They get a bit of excitement, but organising multiple people with vast armies is a logistical headache. It’s a once or twice a year thing for a group, at best. I don’t doubt people who play it enjoy it. But tell me I’m wrong about the logistics of Apocalypse...


    Your not. Which is why I think nobody I have spoken to is actually interested in using it for the scale they are pitching it for. The vast majority don't want to find 8ft tables filled to the brim with 400+ dollar models. They want the best time they can have with a normal game. Apocs rules let them do that.


    These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.

     JohnHwangDD wrote:

    The Nazis were right. It's better to be a Nazi than a fan.

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     Lance845 wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    cvtuttle wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.


    Or you could read what I posted, which was about *my group only*. Don’t be an edgelord needlessly. No part of my post stated or implied my experience was universal. So can it.

    Apocalypse is not the kind of game that has ever had a sustained, regular player base. They get a bit of excitement, but organising multiple people with vast armies is a logistical headache. It’s a once or twice a year thing for a group, at best. I don’t doubt people who play it enjoy it. But tell me I’m wrong about the logistics of Apocalypse...


    Your not. Which is why I think nobody I have spoken to is actually interested in using it for the scale they are pitching it for. The vast majority don't want to find 8ft tables filled to the brim with 400+ dollar models. They want the best time they can have with a normal game. Apocs rules let them do that.

    This is what my group is looking at, But i not sure it will take over killteam as the GW Game played here, But it will probably sit as a second if its good and fun to play.
       
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    Try playing 2nd edition.

    Seriously, it is ridiculously fun for combat patrol level games and with harlequins and gsc returning to the game you've got a modern analogue in almost all armies.
       
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    Morgan Hill, CA

     JohnnyHell wrote:
    cvtuttle wrote:
     JohnnyHell wrote:
    Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


    HAHAHAHAHAAHahh. Ok. Sure.

    Kill Team is hugely popular. Not just in my groups area, but at events like Adepticon, NOVA, etc.

    Apocalypse has just launched and you are declaring it "dead" already. By all accounts, people who are playing it are enjoying it quite a bit. I have yet to try my first game of it but our group is incredibly excited about it.

    Before you make such huge proclamations, you may want to remember when people proclaimed that 40k was going to die when it moved to 8th edition and AoS was a complete and total bust. Absolutely neither of those things are true either.


    Or you could read what I posted, which was about *my group only*. Don’t be an edgelord needlessly. No part of my post stated or implied my experience was universal. So can it.

    Apocalypse is not the kind of game that has ever had a sustained, regular player base. They get a bit of excitement, but organising multiple people with vast armies is a logistical headache. It’s a once or twice a year thing for a group, at best. I don’t doubt people who play it enjoy it. But tell me I’m wrong about the logistics of Apocalypse...


    Apologies that you were referring to your group only (wasn’t clear on apocalypse there) and not a general statement. My mistake.

    Also, sorry your group isn’t enjoying any of it. My group out here (about 22 of us) is loving it all. Hope you find some joy in the hobby.

       
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    Gig Harbor, WA

    I think I had the most fun with 8e with the indexes, but some of the armies were poorly balanced. In my area kill team is very popular, and I enjoy it more than 8e. Apocalypse doesn't really interest me.

    Rather than a 4th way to play, I'd like to see 8e get revised to an 8.5 that incorporates some of the modern game concepts that GW is finally exploring in kill team and apocalypse.
       
     
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