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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





With the launch of Armageddon, there are now 3 different rule sets to play 40k:

Kill-Team for squad vs squad
40k for larger battles
Armageddon for really big battles


I started playing 40k when it was more of a skirmish game in 2nd edition and enjoyed the 40k in 40 minutes and combat patrol formats of previous editions. Is there anyone else that would like to see this scale of game make a come-back?

Most times I play 40k my opponents want to play 1500pts or above with 1750pts and 2000pts most common. Personally I prefer the 400-1000pt mark, but its difficult to find others who want to play those games. It can be done of course, and my local community often has 500pt limit tournaments where the only detachment allowed is a patrol, no 2+ saves, no vehicles, no flyers and no models with more than 7 wounds, no LoW. This works for the most part, and the larger point games allow players to bring out the big stuff.

I find that at the smaller point games, the mechanics aren't quite right. The simplified and streamlined rules seem well siuted to the 1500pt+ range but for smaller games I think there is room for more nuance.


Essentially what I'm asking is does anyone else like or miss these smaller scale games, 2 or 3 squads, one character, maybe one tank/walker etc. and how would you feel about a new rule set, somewhere in between kill team and 40k for games of this scale?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 18:13:35


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I'd love it, something where characters can be personalised somewhat but your force is 2-3 squads at most plus one or two bits of support equipment and a highly 'mission' focused scenario system where you have a job do to and the enemy is simply in your way.

a system where a fair bit more detail could be brought in, much closer to what 1st edition had in fact, except with a character skill system for non-combat 'tasks' added (searching rooms, picking locks, downloading data, recapturing tribbles etc)
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Absolutely. I really wish GW had a viable points system balanced around the 750-1000pt range.

If their rules system was truly balanced (or at least a mild attempt to balance it), we should be able to scale the rules system to all points ranges.

Then we could have a 'Kill Team' ruleset that uses the base 40k rules but may have 1 or 2 unique limitations (limit 1 Elite or HQ, 1HQ and 1Troop mandatory type thing). This could then be scaled up to Apocalypse where HQ and Elites were 2:1 or something.

But anything would be fine... I do really miss the 1000pt games.
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






Lets have a complex ruleset version of 40k with all the fiddly mechanics from past editions that add complexity to the game. Bring back the blast weapons, firing arcs, weapon skill checks, USRs, etc. Keep 8th's fast and loose style of 40k for people who like that steam lined sort of thing and have a complex version for those who like diving into the nitty gritty of battlefield tactics. Maybe optimize it for 1000 to 1500 points so you can make it in depth without being a huge time hog.

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4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



NE Ohio, USA

More rules for playing with less stuff? No thanks.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






It'd be relatively easy to combine 2nd edition and 8th into something like that.

Many years ago (i.e...20+) I admit I gave up on 40K ever being a proper wargame. I'd enjoy that far more than what 40K has evolved into. However, that's at odds with what GW wants (read: sell more models...and sell more paint...and then sell more...anything). 2nd edition had too many rules that weren't nicely written (i.e. tons of crunch without much smoothness-of-play). Smoothing the rough edges and minimizing some of the mayhem - while not going full 3rd-7th edition could yield a cool game.

I'd absolutely rather play a more complex game with fewer models than the "everything hits on 2+ and kills on 2+..." swarm game that 8th is rapidly becoming. I've considered adopting rules from various historical wargames into a new type of 40K myself. Just too exhausting to consider really writing it up when I'm working on other projects.

 
   
Made in fr
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think the main issue with 40K at the 500pts scale is that many factions can only bring 3-4 units, which isn't that great. IG vs GSC would be fun at this scale, but a custodes, or even a primaris player, has to sink most of its points in the basic HQ+troop.
To fix that I would do two things:
- Change min-squad sizes to be based on points: if a units has enough models to cost like 75pts, then it doesn't need to add more models, even if it didn't reach its normal min-squad size. That allows people to still bring many different toys, without having to sink half their points in a single unit.
- Remove the requirement for HQs in detachment. That's mostly for factions that only have expensive HQs.
   
Made in nz
Pewling Menial




New Zealand

It really depends on the local community.

At my FLGS Thursday nights are 1000pt PUGs and it works quite well for that 40k in 1hr fix.

I agree that 40k loses what little balance it has at that scale it really becomes a rock scissors paper game, but it it fun.

Building towards 1000pts
 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






I don't think there's design space for it. The mechanics that work well at 500-1000 points also work well at 1000-2000 points so you don't need an Apocalypse/Kill Team variant game. At most you might need some unit restrictions, but a "no LoW" rule is well short of developing an entire new game variant.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in de
Longtime Dakkanaut





@OP:

Kill-Team is NOT 40K. It´s a poor man´s Necromunda.
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Absolutely, yes. Kill Team, 8e, and Apocalypse aren't just about "small games", "medium games", and "large games", they're very different approaches to how the game is played, what units do, how resources and characteristics are differentiated, how you win, and so on.

I'd like a 500 point "Combat Patrol" system, for example, that focuses much more on movement and area control than 8e, incorporating the slower pace and emphasis on range of Kill Team, along with elements of Apocalypse's Commands and control radius. That has the potential to be a completely different game, even while using the same basic "skeleton" as 8e like Kill Team does.

Or, hell, you could go even further than Kill Team and introduce a "Duel"-level game where each player controls a single model, with much more differentiated actions each model could take each phase. Imagine a Succubus facing down a Crisis Commander in a burning T'au ruin, each one taking actions like Dodge, Parry, Feint, Flurry, Power Strike, Aim, and so on.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Kill-Team is NOT 40K. It´s a poor man´s Necromunda.
Kill Team uses the same models, factions, setting, and basic rules as 40k 8e. You can literally take a squad from your 8e army and use them in Kill Team, and aside from Morale and Charging the core rules are basically the same, too. If that's not 40k, Apocalypse sure as hell isn't 40k.

(also, Necromunda badly needed a proper rules update, not just the HD re-release it got)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/06/30 23:19:51


 
   
Made in us
Implaccable Grey Knight Paladin




San Diego, CA

I don't think there is necessarily a need with how Kill Team is expanding, but I would really like to see 1250 pt tournaments become a thing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 03:26:48


Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




The issue with kill team is that it has so many artificial restrictions due to GW's post Chapter House decision. Go look at how only certain scouts can take camo cloaks entirely based on weapon options or another entirely arbitrarily determined choices due to what kit has what option in it.

I looked at the old third edition witch hunter book today since I kept all my older books and it makes me sad how many options got pulled even from what should be a squad level game.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Having more ways to play with the models I already own is nothing short of fantastic.

The amount of possible customization in Kill Team now is starting to become amazing, especially considering how low the model count is for some factions with the new Elites expansion. The buy-in is just incredibly, incredibly cheap compared to standard 40k. Now you're telling me there's a brand new game mode where I can field all the superheavy shelfhammer units in my collection all at once? Sign me up.

I haven't really had to buy new stuff to play new games with my dudes in a long while. It's great.

As stupid as it sounds, I would totally welcome Kill Team: Fast Attack or Kill Team: Cavalry. Still waiting for Kill Team: Daemons. Give me more reasons to put underplayed 40k units on the table.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/07/01 04:29:12


   
Made in us
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Hanoi, Vietnam.

Aash wrote:
Essentially what I'm asking is does anyone else like or miss these smaller scale games, 2 or 3 squads, one character, maybe one tank/walker etc. and how would you feel about a new rule set, somewhere in between kill team and 40k for games of this scale?
I can see the appeal. Battles would certainly seem to look much more like the ones in the olden days of White Dwarf, which is what I'll always get a warming sense of nostalgia from. That said, having already given us three scales to play with - not including games like Adeptus Titanicus and Blackstone Fortress - I doubt Games-Workshop will see any value in putting effort into something between those three. This seems like something that would likely only be achieved as a personal or community project.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




Yes, Kill team was ok. But i think they did need to put in a bit more effort, and expansion they have done to the game have been kinda bad.
It kind of feels like they only want to get people into the bigger game anyway with it.
But i think with a kill team update they could use it for a small company game as well.
Give them the chance to put in commanders, light vehicles and such. But only if they put in the effort not to half ass it.

For where i am, 40k is basically a game on life support and kill team is the GW game now. And we getting a bunch of house rules and mostly ignoring there new books anyway.
   
Made in it
Regular Dakkanaut




Fantasy flight RPG mechanics?
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






The trick would more or less be (obviously this would be a fan product) to create an entirely new game system...but you'd be stuck using 40K stats (because re-writing 25+ codices is beyond even the most ardent fan).

Would be easier doing something like HH (or starting that way) because you could literally do one codex with 20-30 basic entries and concentrate on the actual rules.

The best stat lines for something like this would be from older books (back when stat lines were far more varied) but then you run into issues of missing modern units, etc.

A genuine, detailed rule set based around actual possible combat and not slinging hundreds of plastic models into each other's meat blenders would be a pretty fun thing. Even better if you elaborated on the differences of armies/races. You'd struggle with the stat-lines, but you could afford to make Marines far more "marine-like" and Aspect Warriors more appropriate, etc.

If you did concentrate on HH you could actually re-do your own stat-lines as well, since you'd be narrowing down the scope a ton.

 
   
Made in ch
Potent Possessed Daemonvessel





I do play 500- 200 pts. recently i played alot of small games in 500-750 pts ranges.

The balance shifts around abit, skewing is easier, alot (a Leman russ becomes a serious threat, vice versa a squad of CSM in cover is really hard to shift)

Deathstar units are also a lot less reliable (Obliterators)

IG and R&H perform a lot better down there due to their HQ tax for mostly doing nothing taking up a fraction of the points for other armies.

Personally, around 1000 pts i find the matches the most enjoyable, you have a good ammount of models on the fiueld maybee some really big stuff even but it doesn't get as overloaded as with 2000.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost.) 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 JohnnyHell wrote:
Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


your group though isn't 40k as a whole, at my local GW killteam is VERY popular.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

BrianDavion wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!


your group though isn't 40k as a whole, at my local GW killteam is VERY popular.


This I understand, and didn’t say it was. I just see no space for another form of 40K, given you can play the OP’s preferred mode with 40K and a few house rules. GW making/supporting that? Nope.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/07/01 09:16:25


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 JohnnyHell wrote:
Apocalypse will tank quickly and Kill Team has nonfollowing in my group. A fourth type of 40K wouldn’t even get a look-in. Hard enough finding time to paint and play one game tbh!

I really do hope your wrong about Apocalypse tanking, but GW hasn't been great about splash released systems seeing on going support from the designers.

A 4th system is just not going to be viable, 40k is supposed to be the game that covers what your lookong for, you can say it's bad etc but in GW's mind their isn't a gap between Killteam and 40k to fill, the only reason Apocolyse was released was people complaining that 40k is still too slow to play at 2k+.

But if you want to improve the balance at 500 piints ditch CP and strategums.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Yeah Apocalypse generally requires more models, more players and much more organisation to put a game on. It’s a box-shifter for the summer, after which it will be forgotten.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





Apocylpse has always been the type of game a local store hosts once or twice a year as mostly a chance to get every 40k player together in a giant game, but apoclpyse ahs always been just 40k with some modifications. it'll be intreasting to see how it picks up now that the rules are so distinct.

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





CP and strategems need to be eliminated I think. It leads to so much cheese and armies being made based on CP generation and stacking army bonuses auras and strategems and mathhammering. The fundamentals of combat are hardly important - fire and maneuver.

I’m going to work on new rules that keep it simple and make the game play like we all feel it should play. With rules that fit the fluff and spirit of the armies while not breaking the game
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

I would like it. Kill Team is too small, Regular 40k has the tactical depth of a small pond, and Apoc is too big. A combat patrol would be very nice to have.

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran



London

I think that is where you as wargamers come in. You can't turn up and play a balanced game easily at that level you need to turn up, chat about the scenario, make sure the armies have a fair chance based on the terrain, objectives and opposition and then go at it.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think that is where you as wargamers come in. You can't turn up and play a balanced game easily at that level you need to turn up, chat about the scenario, make sure the armies have a fair chance based on the terrain, objectives and opposition and then go at it.


Exactly. You can absolutely agree force composition and game parameters ahead of time to get the game you both want. Not everything has to be 2K Matched Play Organised Event Rules CA2018 (sorry to break it to ya, Dakka!).

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Shrieking Traitor Sentinel Pilot




USA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The_Real_Chris wrote:
I think that is where you as wargamers come in. You can't turn up and play a balanced game easily at that level you need to turn up, chat about the scenario, make sure the armies have a fair chance based on the terrain, objectives and opposition and then go at it.


Exactly. You can absolutely agree force composition and game parameters ahead of time to get the game you both want. Not everything has to be 2K Matched Play Organised Event Rules CA2018 (sorry to break it to ya, Dakka!).


Correct. You can indeed do this, however that does not change that 40k has rather lackluster rules as is. (Which is a shame, as GW is showing that they can make better rulesets and have a game with kickass models and lore)

"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed. 
   
 
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