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Damn you're right, didn't read this book enough.

 Thairne wrote:
So... lets just assume kataphrons are kind of viable.

How many buffs could reasonably be stacked on Breachers to make them as tough as possible?

Servitor Maniple can give them a 5+.
Also basically one servitor per turn restored.
New WL Trait gives a 5++.
Artisan has a MW on a 6 when firing arc weapons OR AP -1.
Mars makes Heavy Arc Rifles way better at targeting their preferred target by adding +1 S. Rerolls from Cawl really help with the low BS.

A T5 3W 3+/5++/5+++ unit with 2 S7 shots that deals mortals on 6 for 30 pts?
Suddenly Skitarii seem REALLY wimpy...

Lucius' new Canticle gives them +1 to their Invuln up to 4++ too for a turn. But then you give up the Mars Canticle.

I hope Skitarii remain a good choice because I hate Kataphron models and don't want to feel gimped for not having any. I intend on playing thematic armies but don't want a Nighthaunt army for 40k where everyone is kicking me on the ground and laughing at it in games

Yeah alternatively just using Acquisition At All Cost does the same and gives +1A on top of that if near an objective. And it's +1 armour save too. But 2 CPs and for a turn too though, might be costly considering all the CPs needed for a Kataphron list.

Might be also why I'm not a fan of the playstyle, it's kind of a one-trick pony. Also played a game once where my opponent with the relic Battle Cannon killed 3 Destroyers in one go, kind of salty about that

The new coherency rules are going to make Hoplites and Fulgurites a pain to move around. Assuming the rules for pile-in and such stay the same it'll be hard to keep a unit of 10+ in full coherency while engaged. It may get harder to have all of our models in engagement range to strike, too, depending on the position of the enemy unit and terrain.

So far it doesn't look like the edition where I'll finally buy Hoplites with how nerfed combat looks to be. As well as 5+ models units. We'll definitely want to keep MSU for our infantry, and never go above 5 for other models.

Just did tests actually and as long as we keep them base to base or at least very close, we can still keep them in a line in coherency with 2 models. Same for the Riders, if anyone intends on running a 5+ unit. Severely reduces our screening and wrapping capability this way though, and also there's still Blast weapons to think about.

Honestly I don't believe blast weapons are really going to matter that much. It looks like they're nerfing hordes so much we'll end up paying extra for a rule we'll never use on our guns. I also don't like some of these weapons going Blast, namely the Neutron Laser and Eradication Beamer. What's the point of being able to shoot in CC with our vehicles if they can only do so with the Cognis Stubber ? Same thing for the Belleros cannon and Icarus Rocket Pod (not sure if it's our Icarus, my rules are in French). At least the Dunerider and Robots are benefitting from this, I think Kastelans that can shoot in CC is one of the biggest improvements.

Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah the Morale change is good I believe, but the coherency rules are scaring lots of horde players so far. Coupled with the new activation mechanics to earn VPs that seems to be encouraging MSU (since a unit can't do much while activating) and the Blast weapons that's a lot of negatives for hordes.

I'm sad because I like to run my Vanguards by units of 6-8, but no way I'm running them at this size now, they died way too easily in 8th, not going to have them killed even easier now.

Coherency rules are fine just layer your models 2 deep like bricks - or for models with smaller bases a single line in base contact - Its a change but face it who really liked tenticals or 1unit covering a quarter of the table

Ah I don't like conga lines neither, my point was that blast weapons won't see much use because we'll rarely face big blocks, because of the disadvantages I listed. I said earlier how Raiders and our 25mm infantry will still be able to stay comfortably in cohesion.

I don't see big blocks of Kataphrons continuing to exist as they do though, unless you invest in massive protection on them with the defensive options we have. Eating a full Knight's Battle Cannon to the face will hurt a lot.

Our Servitors might get different point values. I read that they got upped because the heavy weapons they could carry in the Astartes codex got new points too, might explain it.

Yeah I can't wait for the points, I really hope there'll be a good leak before the 11th to prepare list building.

Yeah I don't expect any other faction to be balanced with Marines to be honest

0XFallen wrote:

 Aaranis wrote:
Yeah I don't expect any other faction to be balanced with Marines to be honest

I think most shouldnt be balanced like them, they are clearly op with really good stats on even small and spammed weaponry that the only way to have something stronger is to add attacks, which they clearly do as they have plenty like the bikes having 6-7 attacks. Everyong compares their army to the posterboys, I wonder if we ignore them and compare to the other factions only, then maybe it will seem more balanced.

Well when Aeldari players compare their Swooping Hawks to our Pteraxii they must feel left out too

But otherwise you're right, Marines don't play on the same level in 8th or 9th too I'd wager. I'll play one or two games against them and see how it goes before I decide not to play against them for sake of having fun in my games.

Shooter wrote:I currently only have the old start collecting box - my plan was to get two of the new ones and use the 3 together as the basis of a small Ad Mech army. However I've found somewhere that still has one of the old ones on sale.

I know everything is a bit up in the air with 9th on the horizon, but in general would I be better off with 2 Dunecrawlers and 1 Disintegrator/Dunestrider, or the other way round? I feel having two of the tanks gives a bit more flexibility?

edit: just realised i also want some Kastelan Robots, so 2 Dune Crawlers would then mean I couldn't fit a Disintegrator into a battalion

I think the new SC with the boats will serve you better, as you can make use of Enginseers easier than more Domini. Concerning the Onager/Disintegrator dillemma, I'd pick the Disintegrator as he can fulfill the same role as an Onager with Neutron Laser if you use the Ferrumite Cannon. But the Belleros is a way more popular choice of weapon given it shoots without LoS.

But I'd wait to be on the 11th to have the points values of everything before buying/building if I were you.

Yeah they're supposed to be the jack-of-all-trades of armies, being a generalist faction that can do everything well enough and have lists that can be built around a theme. Other factions are supposed to be more specialists in their own field. Aeldari with Psykers, Death Guard for attrition, Astra Militarum for mechanised warfare, Tyranids for swarms of melee units... Problem is when they wrote the codex 2.0 of Marines and decided they should just be better than everyone in every field and the rest can be a NPC faction.

And this really breaks the game for me, now that I'm calculating the efficiency/lethality of an AdMech unit I feel forced to compare it to MEQ and so the results disappoint me all the time.

By the way if that's interesting to anyone, a barebones Sulphurhounds unit vs a MEQ does the following amount of damage (units are Wounds):

Shooting: 2,62 with flamers + 0,66 with pistols + 0,22 with blast pistol = 3,5 wounds
Melee: 0,66 for normal riders + 0,55 for Alpha = 1,21 wounds

So a round of shooting + a successful charge on an Intercessor squad results in a whopping 4,71 wounds off on average. 57 pts of Sulphurhounds kills 34 pts of Intercessors this way (with 8th values).

Octovol wrote:
Did you take into account the -T debuff from Sulphurhounds? It is a bit of a shame neither of the Serbyrus are particularly good in melee, Sulphurhounds ought to be better but raiders actually have better melee weapons! Though both are held back by the fact that Skitarii hit on 4s in combat, which is also what makes Robots not worth their points as well.

Yeah counted it in melee, with the custom Forge World we might make it so in shooting too with the 3" debuff aura but that's too specific. I'll calculate it either way, so considering they're within 3" with the buffed Irradiation:

Shooting: 3,5 with flamers + 0,88 with pistols + 0,22 with blast pistol = 4,6 wounds, so an increase of 1,1 wounds (31% more) compared to without Irradiation against MEQ.

A 31% boost is great but sending them within 3" of their target will be quite difficult most of the time, even if they charge after on average they'll kill almost 3 Intercessors (4,6 + 1,21 = 5,81w).

Yeah I don't understand either why it isn't the Sulphurhounds that have the cavalry sabres. But the AdMech codex is weird like that. Making Fistelans hit on 4+ with no way to reroll better than 1s to Hit and to Wound for example. I wish they'll update their datasheet in the next codex to make them more viable with the Fists, just making them 3+ to Hit would go a long way.

Yeah I built one with the carbine because of rule of cool (they're really nice-looking) but only after did I realise how I hindered myself rules-wise. Not only does it cost 15 pts, but I can't shoot it in CC and have to forgo my other pistol (that I pay 1 pt for) and my flamer to use it. Only nice to get a pot shot at a distant target, if you're within 8" you'll always prefer the flamer + pistol.

But I intended on buying a second box to make a unit of 5 so I'll have some flexibility if I want to play a more competitive game. Otherwise it stays this way for friendly games.

EDIT: I hope they won't do a complete 180° with the new point costs concerning our new units. I think the Raiders are a bit too cheap but their retail price evens that out for me haha! But their cheapness and straight-forward use make them a neat addition in our army I think. I don't plan on buying them yet because they're so cheap I'd do like 2 units of 5 or something like that and that'd be costly.

Not a lot of people were going to play between Engine War and 9th anyway, I don't think they'll bother with a FAQ for the point changes, only for the other questions.

But yeah 15 pts is way too much haha.

POINTS ARE UP ! I transcribed the points from this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6bdswaxHDs

I'll write them down as they are now from what they were last update (CA19):

UNITS:


RANGED WEAPONS (not in alphabetical order sorry, my codex is not in English):

MELEE WEAPONS:

UTILITY WARGEAR:

Well vanilla Serberys Raiders are up from 42 pts to 48, while Sulphurhounds are up from 57 to 68 . The phosphor carbine still costs 15 pts for some reason however. This continues to dig the pit between both units in terms of use sadly :/

Pteraxii Skystalkers are up from 79 to 90, and Sterylizors up from 89 to 100 pts. 11 pts more each for a vanilla squad.

Concerning Dunecrawlers, the Neutron Laser one went from 107 pts to 130, the Icarus from 100 to 115, the Beam one from 100 to 115, and the HPB variant from 100 to 115 too. Comparing to the Disintegrators, it went from 111 pts to 150 for the Belleros variant and 116 pts to 155 for the Ferrumite variant. The comparison between Disintegrators and Dunecrawlers should be reevalauted I feel.

Kastelan Robots get a 15 pts increase/model whatever the variant. I'm sad for the Fist variant as I don't know yet if the changes from 8th to 9th nerf them or buff them yet.

Our Skitarii both at 9 pts each, which is great I think because at last Vanguards become a more interesting alternative to Rangers, but sad when you know Guarsmen stay at 5 pts from what I've read. The Arc Rifles at 5 pts become hard to justify using too, I feel.

Full Arc Breachers change from 30 pts to 35 pts, and Destroyers with plasma + blaster come from 48 pts to 53.

EDIT: miscalculated the points for Sulphurhounds

PiñaColada wrote:
The sulphurhounds are 60 points base, are they not? 3x20 points. Power maul is ? (I'm guessing 5) points & the blast pistol is another 3 points. I'm guessing they're 68 base

Yeah I brainfarted, I edited just before your answer ! My happiness is gone now haha

Wow my collection went from 2658 to 3002 pts, how about you guys ?

 Kanluwen wrote:
If the Phosphor Blast weapons end up with the Blast keyword...do we think that would actually be reasonable for Sulphurhounds?

Why would they have the Blast rule ? They don't have a random amount of shots.

Yeah I started off wanting to play WYSIWYG and all that but Jesus 15 pts for a niche weapon like that is hard to swallow. Yeah I might get lucky and kill 2 Intercessors with it but most of the time I'll do a wound tops.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Check the FAQs section of the WHC, they released it for all factions it seems ! Starting to read ours now.

We have a little beer & pretzels tourney planned for next month at 1000 pts to have fun and try out this new edition. Considering how interesting Vanguards have become compared to Rangers I'm thinking trying the new custom FW traits to have the -1 AP on Radium weapons and use a lot of them in MSU. Ideally I'd have loved the Irradiation rule at 3" + -1AP but we can't do that sadly. For a Warlord trait I'm thinking the one that gives +1 shot on 6 to hit for them, considering they'll have a lot of shots. Still have to calculate/throw the dice to see if it gives an honorable boost or not. The -1 AP on half-range is nice too but I don't think being 9" away is going to be recurrent.

Haven't had a look at the secondaries neither, but I don't know if we'll use the GT rulepack or not, and if it has different secondaries.

I don't know, this weapon has always been absurd. Hitting on 5+ ? S10 but AP-1 ? Is it made of radioactive butter ? I think the Arc Claw is still the better option.

Anyone found if the points for the transuranic arquebus are up somewhere ?

What is going to be your Troop choice from now on ? Speaking to a friend of mine that loves the competitive aspect he believes 9th will be all about taking and HOLDING objectives, meaning durability and speed are what we should be looking for in our lists. Of course, keeping the lethality necessary in dealing with the opponent's objective holders too.

Breachers are our most resilient Troop choice but don't do much outside of being resilient. Destroyers are the opposite, less tough but great for either anti-MEQ with Grav weapons or anti-all with the new Blast Plasma cannon. Then we have Skitarii with either Rangers or Vanguards. I prefer Vanguards due to the increased volume of fire that fits well with a few Warlord traits and stratagems combination, and the Irradiation rule that helps as a support unit in a brawl.

Yeah I'm thinking going full Vanguards too, I don't own any Skorpiuses yet sadly but the idea to mechanise them was always on my mind. Probably going full MSU though, I don't trust big units so far. I'll try my draft list at 1000 pts as soon as I can to see what it's worth. Thinking of going 6x5 Vanguards if I manage to find enough bits to transform a few Rangers into Vanguards.

I might sprinkle a Plasma Caliver in a few squads, I'll see if it's worth it. They're still not excessively tough, though the -1S above 12" should help against bolters.

Honestly I'd rather use Sterylizors to the job Ruststalkers want to do. 100 pts instead of 70 pts, but you have the same amount of attacks on the charge at least, innate -1 AP and S5 on the charge. Plus Fly, 12" move, a good pistol and 4 good flamers that ignore cover and have -1 AP.

And there's also the stratagem to lock an Infantry unit in CC on a 2+ which helps their survivability as long as they're not locked with Aggressors or something of course. For 30 pts I think it's worth it against a unit that REALLY needs 6s to Wound to do damage to anything that's not an Aeldari or Guardsmen profile.

PiñaColada wrote:
Goonhammer has confirmed that the arquebus is 10 points each by the way. Rejoice!

Oh thanks for the info, that's great news ! It helps soften the increase in cost for Rangers a bit. I may keep 2x5 units of 2 arquebuses and Omnispex in the future to hold ground in my backline.

Yeah all our melee is flimsy, save for Kastelan Robots, which are a pain to deal with if it's not locked with a Dreadnought or TH hero or something. I'm eager to try my 4x Fistelans unit in 9th, they may be a nice presence to add midfield to threaten lines or hold objectives. Otherwise, flimsiness can be mitigated with Duneriders, ideally our melee units don't get shot at before they're charged save for the eventual Overwatch. Advance the Duneriders, weather a turn of fire, and disembark-charge the next. Which is why it's important to keep multiple vehicles in our lists (not that it's hard to do) to give the opponent different threats to deal with his limited anti-tank weaponry. Will he focus on the Ironstriders, or the Duneriders ?

To get back to the Ruststalker question, I would never use a pure melee unit to hold an objective, that's asking for trouble. Let's say they're on their own in a corner of the map holding an objective and the opponent brings a shooty squad just close enough so as to shoot the Ruststalkers to whittle them down. Come your turn, do you leave the objective to charge them, or do you stay still and pray you'll tank the next salvo ? It's not a common scenario I admit, but it happens and it happened to me with different units. They're nice as a SUPPORT unit I think, as long the main objective holders (mainly, our Troops) are there they're great to intercept or finish off units threatening our control.

We need tough and/or cheap units that can defend themselves to hold objectives in 9th. Even Ironstriders can be an interesting choice in a pinch, they had a minimal points bump while gaining the abilities to shoot in CC and move without penalty. They'll finally be able to do what they're supposed to do: be a very mobile firing platform. Park 3-4 on an objective and with their sheer footprint they'll be hard to kick out.

Lots of things to think about.

I'm going to do the maths, but for 10 pts more they're still a cheap option for anti-tank that doesn't need much support. Thing is, Autocannons can be much more flexible, as long as we invest around them, be it in CPs or Warlord Traits. You'd have to see what your local meta is made of. I know I'll prefer Autocannons when facing Primaris armies. With the possibility to have them S8 for a turn, as well as having AP-2 at mid-range you're looking at a lot of dead Primaris quite often.

We can still give +1 to Hit to our Ironstriders, just 2 of them and this strat is 4 shots at 2+ to Hit/3+ to Wound AP-3 Dd6, it's a reliable anti-tank tool.

Coming from the sides of the board can have its limitations though, they're more predictable and will be further from their goal. Drill can at least strike everywhere it has room. Otherwise the Lucius strat still works.

I never was too big on multiple dogmas lists, but reading the custom ones I wonder if they're any we can use for specific tasks. If Hoplites get dogmas anytime Transnodal generators will be really powerful, especially coupled with the Artisan Warlord to give exploding 6s to wound against Vehicles in a pinch. Or I'm thinking about a small detachment with the buffed Irradiation to use Sulphurhounds as fast suicidal debuffers to lower the Toughness of as many units as they can for our firing line. If we want to play a mechanised list and trade firepower for resilience, the Datathesauriser world (dunno how it's written in English sorry) have interesting traits too; 6+ FNP for vehicle, and auto-reparation means we can save up to 9 wounds on a vehicle at once with this + double repair + Necromechanic trait.

Uh-oh, looks like Vigilus Detachments will be illegal in Competitive Play. Leaks from the GT Rulepack here from Rumours thread: https://imgur.com/a/uH74BUw