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 Deadshot wrote:
While interesting, back banners were always a bad idea on gaming pieces as game pieces need to be shoved into cases and transported, and back banners needed a slot in the case much bigger than was standard. GW's old cases, and by extension, many non-custom-cut cases on the market, offer rectangular slots about the size of a regular bolter marine. Anything larger, from a back banner to a full standard bearer, needed to cut permanent slots in the material.

This lead to a sergeant or back banner taking up an unnecessary amount of space while also being prone to breaking off, as there is only a single small connection point on a thin rod.

In addition for most of the years they made them, your best choice was a fold over sticker that usually looked pretty bad, and didn't fold over very well. Eventually they started putting blank plastic, and then sculpted detail, but it was too late.

I miss them. Especially on Aspect Warriors; an entire squad of Dire Avengers or Striking Scorpions with sashimonos looks cool.

They were always a pain, but I like them. That’s mostly the nostalgia talking though.

40k has evolved a lot over the years. In the beginning, it was more fantasy in SPACE! At that point, it made a lot more sense for space marines, who were just space knights, to put a lot more focus on heraldry. It was not enough to march into battle, but to show your colors so the foe would know who’s wrath he was about to receive. That aspect of the lore has been steadily on the decline as 40k found its own voice and theme. Now it's more tacticool and SpecOps. Sleek future soldiers bringing swift death to the foes of mankind.

Is one right or wrong? Not really, Just different themes.

I have a full range of banners, little topers on backpacks, and nothing or my sarges. It’s been a while since I did a full on back banner. The last banner I used was on my Cato Sicarius counts-as. He’s the kind of conceited, self-absorbed idiot who feels the need to tell the world to look at him. Hence the banner.

Yeah, I'm a real sucker for Nostalgiahammer, but I don't miss back banners. The concept was always goofy to me, and I'd usually cut the pole off rather than do the extra work. It always felt a bit weird having paper on my models, too.

Happy to see the back of them (groan), along with goblin green rims, how everybody liked to Stand Like Slambo(TM) and fighting on grass mats.

Breton wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
While interesting, back banners were always a bad idea on gaming pieces as game pieces need to be shoved into cases and transported, and back banners needed a slot in the case much bigger than was standard. GW's old cases, and by extension, many non-custom-cut cases on the market, offer rectangular slots about the size of a regular bolter marine. Anything larger, from a back banner to a full standard bearer, needed to cut permanent slots in the material.

This lead to a sergeant or back banner taking up an unnecessary amount of space while also being prone to breaking off, as there is only a single small connection point on a thin rod.

In addition for most of the years they made them, your best choice was a fold over sticker that usually looked pretty bad, and didn't fold over very well. Eventually they started putting blank plastic, and then sculpted detail, but it was too late.

The point about black plastic is a good one. When I started, at tail end of 4th Ed, a lot of banners were blank. Meaning freehand. Freehand is an advanced technique and its a real barrier for entry for new players, particularly young ones are GW began to focus their target market at younger generations at that time. My Ironclad dreadnought had the worst "Blood Ravens" banner for years consisting of a rough spiky crucifix-esque shape with a red splodge in the middle. Even the Company Command squad still on the market has this problem today. Its such a steep learning curve to through a new player that they're unlikely to even build the banner, small or large, unless they're really adventurous or confident.

The move to scuplted banners was very welcome, the GK Terminator banner in particular, I remember rejoicing over.

The only one I didn't like was the librarian terminator banner thing but that was more because it was a big metal book and really really didn't want to stay on there.

Black Templars didn't have sergeants for many years. This meant it a sacrifice to convert my marine army to Templar rules, as I loved the visual of squads on the battlefield with a banner per squad.

When plastic modelled banners came on the scene, they remained in the bits box. In 5th ed, I used the banners to make objective markers.

Now they have Sword brothers in the squads, I'll work the banners back in when possible.

 Nevelon wrote:
40k has evolved a lot over the years. In the beginning, it was more fantasy in SPACE! At that point, it made a lot more sense for space marines, who were just space knights, to put a lot more focus on heraldry. It was not enough to march into battle, but to show your colors so the foe would know who’s wrath he was about to receive. That aspect of the lore has been steadily on the decline as 40k found its own voice and theme. Now it's more tacticool and SpecOps. Sleek future soldiers bringing swift death to the foes of mankind.

Is one right or wrong? Not really, Just different themes.

I think you're right about the shift from space knights to special forces. Of course the space knight aspect hasn't totally vanished (and it shouldn't IMO.)

One interesting thing is that I was listening to a relatively recent Horus Heresy book (The Vengeful Spirit maybe?) and one of the marines was saying something about a stealth ship and the other Marines were aghast and said something along the lines of "What's the point if they can't see you coming?".

I think that during the Great Crusade the ridiculous heraldry made a sort of sense as a big part of the point was to not only win but do so in a way that projected overwhelming strength. In the modern setting they can't produce Marines fast enough to maintain that style of warfare, so when being sensible they use marines more as special forces, but I think they still sometimes feel bound by tradition to fight in ways that might not be ideal. Plus, like with many horrible authoritarian regimes the Imperium still finds it important to display as much strength as possible (even if it might be a sham).

I kind of have mixed feelings on the back banners, I like the samurai feel for them on the units. For what its worth I still use them in space wolves, for they uphold the wolfshido, and will honorably rip the throat out of any foolish foe to cross them.

I didn't like the paper ones as they were too fiddly for me for actual use, the molded ones I like, and the marine standard bearers I love. The ones for guard are kind of meh and have been for a long time, much like medics for poor regular humans, one day they may be cool, one day.

The new Primaris Librarian - maybe Tigurius? - has a back banner.

AngryAngel80 wrote:
I kind of have mixed feelings on the back banners, I like the samurai feel for them on the units. For what its worth I still use them in space wolves, for they uphold the wolfshido, and will honorably rip the throat out of any foolish foe to cross them.

I didn't like the paper ones as they were too fiddly for me for actual use, the molded ones I like, and the marine standard bearers I love. The ones for guard are kind of meh and have been for a long time, much like medics for poor regular humans, one day they may be cool, one day.

I feel you re:medics. Apothecaries are some of my favourite looking Marines, with their cutty-stabby-drilly bits and all their jars of stuff. Then Guard get a bloke with a magic sponge.


To the topic at hand, I'm kinda everywhere and nowhere with back banners. I like the idea of them when done well, and given my BA are very much with the artisans of war feel, re: custom armour and colours with meaning and stuff, I probably should use them more. BUT I am not a fan of the old paper stickers really, and my freehand painting isn't quite good enough that I've been really happy with any I've tried, so tend not to use them. I've enjoyed the sculpted banners on most kits I've had recently that have had them. and some of them look great, but they do tie you in to a specific look. I suppose it wouldn't be that difficult to either modify a sculpted banner a bit, or sculpt a whole new one, if you're dead set on having something unique. Honestly if I'm wanting to go that far to customise my models for a project I've probably done far more fiddly and boring, repetitive conversions before that point so a brand new special banner would probably be a welcome change of pace. Not something I'd ever see myself doing as a major focus but could definitely look cool with the right amount of effort put in.

I used to hate those things. How the heck would someone wearing one go through doors? What if he wanted to hide from an enemy behind a wall? They interfered with my immersion, so I just cut them off.

 Grand.Master.Raziel wrote:
What if he wanted to hide from an enemy behind a wall?

Then he was a coward at best. But probably a heretic.

I don't like the back banners. I don't see why one would be carried, and it makes the model kind of weird and silly looking. I have one space wolf with a back banner because at one point in time a squad could by such an upgrade with a benefit that I wanted enough to go through the effort of repairing him when he broke, but since I don't need that anymore, it stays separated from him.

I hated the backpack banners, didn’t like the look, didn’t like the snappage but loved having a marine with a banner in hand with two or three points of contact - I dig showing off freehand skills.
Problem is in 8th you have to pay for them only so they can do more harm than good. So mine have spent 8th in hibernation.

 beigeknight wrote:
The only one I didn't like was the librarian terminator banner thing but that was more because it was a big metal book and really really didn't want to stay on there.

You should have seen the Bretonnian Battle Standard Bearer in Fantasy. Imagine a 10 pound metal banner 8 inches over a 2 oz plastic horse. I'm exaggerating. I think. That thing didn't want to stay upright, it didn't want to stay straight, and it didn't want to stay glued on. I went to magnetized movement trays, and a thin hard copper rod instead of the soft white metal and it was so much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Animus wrote:
The new Primaris Librarian - maybe Tigurius? - has a back banner.

It's Primaris Tiggy now, and yes, he has a back ba.. now I need to go look and see if it's freehand or sculpted. Come On Sculpted!

Edit to Add: Hurrah! Hurrah! Hurrah! it looks sculpted and all is safe and sane in the world.

 Deadshot wrote:
While interesting, back banners were always a bad idea on gaming pieces as game pieces need to be shoved into cases and transported, and back banners needed a slot in the case much bigger than was standard. GW's old cases, and by extension, many non-custom-cut cases on the market, offer rectangular slots about the size of a regular bolter marine. Anything larger, from a back banner to a full standard bearer, needed to cut permanent slots in the material.

This lead to a sergeant or back banner taking up an unnecessary amount of space while also being prone to breaking off, as there is only a single small connection point on a thin rod.

Smart people figured out how to magnetize them.

ccs wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
While interesting, back banners were always a bad idea on gaming pieces as game pieces need to be shoved into cases and transported, and back banners needed a slot in the case much bigger than was standard. GW's old cases, and by extension, many non-custom-cut cases on the market, offer rectangular slots about the size of a regular bolter marine. Anything larger, from a back banner to a full standard bearer, needed to cut permanent slots in the material.

This lead to a sergeant or back banner taking up an unnecessary amount of space while also being prone to breaking off, as there is only a single small connection point on a thin rod.

Smart people figured out how to magnetize them.

Beginners don't, and every kit needs to be beginner friendly, especially on core units like Tactical Squads or Space Marine Captains, for example.