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 Sentineil wrote:
Yes, it's amazing how me enjoying the hobby and being tired of the endless complaining here, which isn't even coherent, is actually me just being a GW apologist. Excellent deduction. I'll wait patiently to be called a shill soon enough.

You post "everything GW is doing is great and we should be thankful instead of complaining" and dismiss everyone's legitimate concerns, you get labeled an apologist.

The whinging here flip flops between the usual "The rules are bloated" and "My faction didn't get new things". It's unfortunate that the need for new rules for new things seems to be difficult to grasp.

First of all, those "new things" don't really need to exist. Second, I know it's tough to grasp that "dakka" is not a single entity and is in fact composed of multiple people with different opinions, but perhaps what you are actually seeing is just two groups of people disagreeing on something?

If you want it to be a better hobby then send feedback to GW rather than spreading the usual poison across the hobby forums.

IOW, "don't post your opinion unless you agree with me, send it to the black hole of GW's complaint inbox where it can be ignored".

I like the idea. I mean, sure, rebuying books suck, but that's better than staying imbalanced for an entire edition. And having the major chapters split out has appeal to make the main book clearer and that should imply that chapters other than UM will finally have more than 1 named character.

My main worry is this "Best codex ever" directly follows the point increase of the Executioner. I think we can guess what point value is going to be printed. I know it's the strats and rules that make or break a codex since points can be adjusted later, but sigh, not a good first impression of the book that's going to turn things around for marines.

Whilst I don't think that these supplements were really needed, and would have personally preferred streamlining stuff down to one big codex, I think this is still preferable to the variant chapters having their own full codices. At least things will now stay more coherent.

You post "everything GW is doing is great and we should be thankful instead of complaining" and dismiss everyone's legitimate concerns, you get labeled an apologist.

Sure we can. Is the book more than $0? It's overpriced.

Sorry, did I miss the legitimate concern?
It's also nice to equate me being happy with new supplements for chapters that have been neglected with me supporting everything GW does. Awesome. Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?

New things do need to exist. It's how the hobby got past first edition. The fact that people keep buying new things and expanding their collections says that we enjoy new things. Them not needing to exist and you not necessarily wanting them for whatever reason aren't the same thing.

Dakka is not a single entity no, but it is shouted down by a very vocal and negative group to the point that any thread that shows positivity will quickly be drowned out by the usual voices.

 Peregrine wrote:

First of all, those "new things" don't really need to exist.

Do you understand that GW is a comppany which sells models? They actually need to make new models. And you know what's also great? No one is forcing yout o buy them.

Whilst I have my quibbles about how the Primaris line is handled, I am really pleased that it exists. For the most part the models look great, and it is really interesting that the shackles of the old marine organisation have been abandoned. We can get thing that are actually new, instead of just thousandth redo of tactical marines.

Supplements seem like the best way to go for SM imo

Hopefully they roll SW BA and DA into supplements as well rather than a whole new codex

 Lance845 wrote:

Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.

Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.

If you cannot understand an example of "opinion on the quality of a book are subjective", then I think it best I stop attempting to engage with you.

 Sentineil wrote:
Sorry, did I miss the legitimate concern?

The legitimate concern is that GW is forcing space marine players to buy two new books to make up for the fact that the original codex was garbage. It's like if your video card was getting low frame rates in games because of a driver issue and the manufacturer tried to charge you $20 to download updated drivers that fix the problem.

It's also nice to equate me being happy with new supplements for chapters that have been neglected with me supporting everything GW does. Awesome. Any other words you'd like to put in my mouth?

Being happy for new supplements is not apologism. Posting a giant rant on everything from "negativity" to "stop complaining about prices" sure is.

New things do need to exist.

New things that fill a needed role need to exist. New things that exist for the sole purpose of providing new models to buy do not, and in fact hurt the game by drowning the good stuff in a sea of useless clutter. Unfortunately GW's new space marine plan is very little of the first kind of new releases and a lot of the second.

Dakka is not a single entity no, but it is shouted down by a very vocal and negative group to the point that any thread that shows positivity will quickly be drowned out by the usual voices.

That's odd, because in my experience dakka is plagued by a very vocal positive group who drown out any criticism of GW with obsessive white knighting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Do you understand that GW is a comppany which sells models? They actually need to make new models. And you know what's also great? No one is forcing yout o buy them.

Whilst I have my quibbles about how the Primaris line is handled, I am really pleased that it exists. For the most part the models look great, and it is really interesting that the shackles of the old marine organisation have been abandoned. We can get thing that are actually new, instead of just thousandth redo of tactical marines.

GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Cool. So there are quality books with more content for less or equal cost.

Then there is gws overpriced books. And then there are infinitys books which you claim are also overpriced which is relevent to the discusion for some reason.

If you cannot understand an example of "opinion on the quality of a book are subjective", then I think it best I stop attempting to engage with you.

There is subjective and then there is objective. Objectively hardcovers are produced with more content, better layout, better binding, and at least equivalent cover and paper quality for similar price points with more pages. The pdfs gw produce are objectively overpriced when compared to market equivalents.

 Peregrine wrote:

GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.

Sorry, you're just flagrantly wrong. They have said that that the sales of the kits are massively front loaded, i.e. the new kits massively outsell the old kits.

If GW is forcing people to buy space marine codexes I think we should probably report that to the police. It sounds illegal, and a new low for such a tyrannical despicable company.

GW doesn't need to constantly make new models just for the sake of having new boxes to sell. Remember, GW's biggest potential sales are to people starting new armies, not to existing customers buying the new kit to add to an existing army. And for that customer building a new army having new releases doesn't add new sales, it just potentially replaces a sale of an older kit with the new one. If GW stopped making new releases entirely I suspect you'd see a much smaller decrease in sales than you think.

Dude, you should apply to GW so you can run their sales and marketing departments. It sounds like they desperately need a new executive armchair analyst.
Just out of mild curiosity, have you even the tiniest shred of evidence to back any of that up?

I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

From what it read like yesterday, there's a "set" of 19 Successor traits and you can pick them. I'd assume you have to pick a parent Chapter first and then it narrows down the Successor traits.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!

And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.

Games Workshop charging for a balance update isn't shocking (considering the yearly Chapter Approved + Chaos Codex 2.0). Still, people have every right to complain about it, and there's good reason to aswell. My concern is that Games Workshop during the release of 8th edition made it a selling point that they would get rid of the introduction of supplements to reduce the number of books you need to carry. They've obviously already went back on that statement, but it's obvious why they're doing these supplements now. They need something for 40k to release in the upcoming months so avoid the game looking stale or dead, and releasing Space Marine supplements does that. If you don't play Space Marines then obviously it's terrible, but Games Workshop is more concerned about the image of the game atm until they release Sisters in November.

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!

And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.

It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!

And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.

It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.

They adjust fw points. They do not update fw datasheets to have the new rules.

They did give the FW Leman Russ variants Grinding Advance to be fair.

And there is the known issue of changing who handles the rules from FW to the main GW studio. This, coupled with the loss of the Head of FW, will no doubt have disrupted things.

Heck, as of the seminar at UK Games Expo at the start of June, they were still figuring out what route they wanted to use to handle getting updated rules out there, let alone what they wanted/needed to update - points costs are covered by CA, after all, even if they need to give some of them a serious think.

In this specific case, if we're potentially going to see a FAQ update to handle BA/DA/SW using the main book, it isn't outside the realms of possibility that we'll see one for the Marine FW Index to take care of implementing Angels of Death. I won't say it is guaranteed, but it is certainly a viable possibility.

Well I guess its not yet another round of Evil Monk/Wolf/Vampire codexes but it does seem a big money grab of a fix.

I would like to think that there will be lots of interesting and well written new lore but yeah about that.

A few of the new models look quite nice I guess.

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Dr. Mills wrote:
I'm happy.

As a space marine player, this was much needed. Could this have all been done on the the first Codex? Yes, but so much has come out and unfortunately in gameplay terms the marines have been left behind in the power curve.

As for the splitting up of the codex for supplaments - good choice. I play Minotaurs, so I have precisely zero interest in specialised units, characters etc that I won't get to use but have the rules for. If you play those armies, I hope they are great and give you legit interesting ways to play.

Hopefully it will be released soon.

Fw has not seen a single update since the indexes. Your minotaur characters wont have the new rules on their datasheets and wont fit into the new format. While you can still bring them they wont benefit from the new chapter tactics or new sm rules they dont have.

FWIW. It would depend on how Successors are actually handled and if they go the route of Blood Ravens where "oh use a different one if these crap Chapter Tactics don't cut it". Hooboy they did NOT.

Thats not really the issue. If i remember correctly minotaurs have a named character with a unique relic power spear or some such. But his sheet wont have angles of death or any of the other new rules. So no extra attacks. Anything that is new on the datasheets wont exist on the fw ones. Those characters will go forgotten and outdated.

Ah that's what you meant. Whelp luckily Chapter Approved is only 6 months away and you can buy that!

And how many chapter approved will it take for them to fix fw indexes?
You are too hopefull.

It was hardly a serious statement. They sometimes touch FW though. I mean, even Zhufor went down in the last one.

They adjust fw points. They do not update fw datasheets to have the new rules.

Then would you Kindly explain why militia remained 4 ppm even though they are literally gretchin?
Or mutants, or DKoK?
If they seriously would touch these things then half the issues for fw index lists would've been solved twice over allready.

There is nothing for me to explain. Gw doesnt care about fw datasheets.

I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

BrianDavion wrote:
I'm fine with this stuff, I'd rather get new supplements and the like then GW to simply change the edition so they can republish the same dozen books every few years

What, exactly, is the difference? The number? Right now they are busy republishing the same few codexes a few years after the first pass. Except now its more books.

anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it. I however am happy to see GW giving us more source material. but I admit I do a lot of RPGs and am a guy who happily kept up with D&D 3rd edition which released two sourcebooks a month during it's run

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway end of the day if you don;t like it, you don't have to buy it.

"If you don't like it you can just quit and throw your whole investment in the trash".