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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon






Andykp wrote:

The argument still seems to be people don’t like primaris because they are new and different. They are really just truescale mk4 marines.


Primaris aren't limited to Intercessors and Hellblasters, and those other kits are definitely not just "truescale Mk4."

I don't like the Intercessors and Hellblasters because their scale looks weird with my old collection. I don't dislike them because they are "new and different".

I dislike the other units because the aesthetics are different and I find the execution lacking. It's not unlike me not buying a Storm Raven because it's ugly. I didn't avoid the purchase because it was new, I avoided the purchase because it was ugly. Plus, as mentioned, I already have units that perform roughly the same role.

So because the scale is different, because many of the units aren't compatible with my current Marines (transport-wise), and because the majority of the models I find rather ugly. The Primaris line on the whole doesn't interest me.

But it's not because they're new. If Marines had gotten a sweet looking hover tank compatible with my current collection, I could have been all over that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 15:59:46


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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Andykp wrote:
They were designed by the same people who designed the originals


This is almost certainly not true.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 17:25:51


 
   
Made in ca
God-like Imperator Titan Commander




Halifax

For years I scraped all the skulls and purity seals of my Space Marines' armour, and generally went for the hi-tech sci-fi approach. Heck, I removed all the chainswords from my Assault Marines and Sgts, and replaced them with the knives that game with the various kits.

My loyalists all got Mk. VI helmets (and any other bits of Mk VI armour I could scrounge up), and my traitors got the Khorne Berzerker corinthian Mk V heads, or Chaos Space Marine Champion heads, basically all [T]-visors. Bunny Ears and Beakies all around.

In theory I should love the Primaris marines, and in person I agree they look fantastic. What I think is off about them is that they're not the Space Marines that I coveted in my childhood of Rogue Trader and 2nd edition.Give me Primaris-sized Mk VI armour with a gritty lo-tech look, and without all the skulls and purity seals and silly flair, and I'd probably have a 3rd army by now. The Mk III and Mk IV kits really nailed it for how to do it.

The irony is that the new Chaos Space Marines, Havocs, and Chaos Terminators have really nailed how to update CSM. Particularly the proportions on the Terminators.
   
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Actually it is pretty much true. Primaris designs came from a variety of Jes Goodwin's old sketchbooks. Some of the underlying aesthetic features were drawn up over a decade ago. Now, how much of a sketch becomes a figure? Not nearly as much as when Jes was sculpting his own stuff, but there is a strong influence from a while back. Once the line launched though, it's likely they expanded the sources of inspiration, etc. Jes Goodwin discussed and showed some of these sketches around the launch of 8th edition etc.

So it is true, but only to an extent.

 
   
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 Elbows wrote:
Actually it is pretty much true. Primaris designs came from a variety of Jes Goodwin's old sketchbooks. Some of the underlying aesthetic features were drawn up over a decade ago. Now, how much of a sketch becomes a figure? Not nearly as much as when Jes was sculpting his own stuff, but there is a strong influence from a while back. Once the line launched though, it's likely they expanded the sources of inspiration, etc. Jes Goodwin discussed and showed some of these sketches around the launch of 8th edition etc.

So it is true, but only to an extent.

Jes Goodwin's and John Blanche's Tau
Spoiler:

Compare with what we got.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 17:46:37


"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
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Did you have a point?

 
   
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Wicked Warp Spider





 Elbows wrote:
Did you have a point?

Yes. That "that dude draw the concepts" is not a strong argument for the influence of the concept on the final product.

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
Made in fi
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Jes Goodwin oversaw the Primaris project, most of them are his designs. He knows what he is doing.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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I am also sure he has the final word, am I right?

"One must have chaos in oneself to give birth to such heresy" - Nietzsche 
   
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Dakka Veteran




HoundsofDemos wrote:
Nice side by side picture. The only unit on that list I like more than the original range are the Aggresors. Though they always struck me as the new Centurion unit that actually looks like it can walk.


This is the same for me, I see the Reivers. And i cannot think of a model i hate more that GW have done. Old school scouts all the way there, Aggresors i kinda like. And Intersessors i kinda like.
But the tank is a meh, and the floaty ones look like a baby that has been picked up by surprise. The names Hurt D; So i gave up.
   
Made in fi
Junior Officer with Laspistol







The names are a bit weird. Many of them are derived from obscure words and are a bit in conflict with the no-nonsense aesthetics of the models with their emphasis on technology over baroque flourish. In fact, I think Intercessors look more like a "Tactical squad" than a Tactical squad does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 18:22:14


"The place they go towards is a place even less imaginable to most of us than the city of happiness. I cannot describe it at all. It is possible it does not exist. But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas." 
   
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 Kaiyanwang wrote:
I am also sure he has the final word, am I right?

He pretty much does. People should really listen the Voxcast where he talks about the Primaris design.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





The new sculpts have a markedly different aesthetic from the old ones. It's really quite obvious to anyone working in a professional character design capacity that these have been executed by different people. Maybe Jes oversaw the project and even advocated this shift in art direction, who knows. What we do know is that many people agree that generally the execution of the new marine sculpts has been lacking.

Even if you're on board with the shift from gothic sci-fi to generic, high-tech Call of Duty/Halo sci-fi (which I am definitely not on board with btw), the blobby silhouettes and abundance of random, non-committal "high tech shapes" across most units leave a lot to be desired.
   
Made in fi
Chaplain with Hate to Spare






 barboggo wrote:
What we do know is that many people agree that generally the execution of the new marine sculpts has been lacking.

We do not know that. 'The many people' you refer to is a handnful of whiners Dakka. Overwhelming majority of people with even a bare modicum of aesthetic sensibilities agree that the new models are a drastic improvement.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
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 Crimson wrote:
 barboggo wrote:
What we do know is that many people agree that generally the execution of the new marine sculpts has been lacking.

We do not know that. 'The many people' you refer to is a handnful of whiners Dakka. Overwhelming majority of people with even a bare modicum of aesthetic sensibilities agree that the new models are a drastic improvement.


Something something "no accounting for taste" something something.



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CREEEEEEEEED wrote:Personally, the reason I dislike primaris designs is they don't fit aesthetically with the rest of the line. Marines are angry churches, each one a hero in their own right wielding a relic of a weapon and armour forged millenia ago in ways now unknown. Primaris marines are generic supersoldiers who have been mass produced and use standardised weapons and armour. And they look it.
No more so than 5th edition Tacticals that I remember.

Primaris Marines still look like Marines. They still look just as unique individually as old Marines, their gear looks just the same, just longer. The only discernible difference to me is that they're taller. That's literally it. If I collected every 40k army, and painted them all in the same way, with the same colour scheme, it would still be easy to identify the old Marines and Primaris as being cut from the same cloth. Hell, you'd find it easier to match a Tactical Marine to an Intercessor than a Tactical Marine to a Scout.

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?
Buffed beyond relative parity with Aspect Warriors/Necron Troops.
Or alternatively, buffed to what they *should* feel like.
And I don't think I've noticed a single Chainswrod among them.
The Intercessor Veteran Sergeant, the Blood Angel, White Scars and Space Wolves upgrade packs, and the new Store Birthday models all have chainswords.

But I will agree there should have been chainswords in the Intercessor kit. But saying they don't have any is a bit strange - hell, the new Codex has one right on the front cover.

barboggo wrote:The new sculpts have a markedly different aesthetic from the old ones.
Do they? I don't think so.
Big pauldrons? Check.
Blocky rifle with the same barrel type? Check.
Purity seals, eagles and skulls? Check.
Helmet with the same faceplate/cranial covering split? Check.
Backpack with big vents on each shoulder? Check.

It's really quite obvious to anyone working in a professional character design capacity that these have been executed by different people. Maybe Jes oversaw the project and even advocated this shift in art direction, who knows.
According to Voxcast, and his own admission, hasn't Jes been confirmed to be behind a lot of these?
What we do know is that many people agree that generally the execution of the new marine sculpts has been lacking.
Many have. Many others have thought the Primaris to be excellent sculpts.

Even if you're on board with the shift from gothic sci-fi to generic, high-tech Call of Duty/Halo sci-fi (which I am definitely not on board with btw),
Show me anyone who would sooner think a Primaris Marine is closer aesthetically to CoD or Halo or any other sci-fi universe when compared to a Mark VII Astartes.

They have far too much in common with the tried and true Space Marine design to be mistaken for any other universe.
the blobby silhouettes and abundance of random, non-committal "high tech shapes" across most units leave a lot to be desired.
They're no worse than the regular Marines.

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 Crimson wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
I am also sure he has the final word, am I right?

He pretty much does. People should really listen the Voxcast where he talks about the Primaris design.

Spielberg's had some rough ones, too. Even if it is the same artist/sculptor/musician/director/architect/businessman/politician/human, output quality can vary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?

Wow. A Grenade Launcher. Woooooow.

30K Marines are plainly not Chapter Marines, and not "classic" marines, as "classic" marines are squads organized with the RTB01 kit into the modern Tactical Squad. And 30K "Tactical Squads" of all bolters are not at all interesting to me. Doctrinally Legions and Chapters are quite different. I much prefer Chapters, which are specifically built around more independently operable squads.

Marines had rules to incorporate the idea of Drop Pods in 3rd. Drop Pods were part of Marine lore since before 2nd Edition, as part of the Epic rule set.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 19:46:45


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 Insectum7 wrote:
 Crimson wrote:
 Kaiyanwang wrote:
I am also sure he has the final word, am I right?

He pretty much does. People should really listen the Voxcast where he talks about the Primaris design.

Spielberg's had some rough ones, too. Even if it is the same artist/sculptor/musician/director/architect/businessman/politician/human, output quality can vary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?

Wow. A Grenade Launcher. Woooooow.

30K Marines are plainly not Chapter Marines, and not "classic" marines, as "classic" marines are squads organized with the RTB01 kit into the modern Tactical Squad. And 30K "Tactical Squads" of all bolters are not at all interesting to me. Doctrinally Legions and Chapters are quite different. I much prefer Chapters, which are specifically built around more independently operable squads.

Marines had rules to incorporate the idea of Drop Pods in 3rd. Drop Pods were part of Marine lore since before 2nd Edition, as part of the Epic rule set.


So they are not marines because they don’t have drop pods or special weapons in the squads? Otherwise they look exactly the same but taller. I’m not saying you have to like them to say they are a massive shift from the “marine concept” is just a falsehood.


As for them not fitting in with the old marines that is because they show up the old scale and all the flaws in the old designs. I was never a hater of old marines, had a huge dark angel army and never saw an issue with the scaling, didn’t understand why people bothered making truescale ones. Then I lined up a primaris with the old marines and I literally couldn’t unsee the tiny legs and huge heads. So I sold up the dark angels and went full primaris.

What I like about them is that they are still explicitly marines, whatever you say. They have just had all the “gothic” rubbish that didn’t belong removed. The poses of them were so much more dynamic and more movement in them. You sacrificed some customisation but really it’s just the waist joint that has gone monopose and after working with the kits I’ve found so much customisation and options with them it is as good as the old ones and compatible with all the old bits in my bits box.

I suggest to people who haven’t to do as crimson says and watch the voxcast on Jes Goodwin and the primaris range. He was in over all control, he lead from concept through to production and the goal was to re-marine the marines. Strip away the rubbish and modernise the models using the benefits of new technology.

If you look at stormcast eternal they were initially a quite bland blank canvas but they have added character and colour to it with time. We are just now seeing what they are going to be doing with primaris and the back ground and to me it looks great. I expect to see some more divergence and individual character being added to the line so that Templar’s can have more knightly look etc. Some people won’t like them and some will. As I said before it doesn’t make them wrong or badly done. It just makes them not to your taste.
   
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Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?

Wow. A Grenade Launcher. Woooooow.
Functions pretty much the same as a missile launcher does, just a bit weaker. That's more than can be said of 30k Marines.

30K Marines are plainly not Chapter Marines, and not "classic" marines, as "classic" marines are squads organized with the RTB01 kit into the modern Tactical Squad.
In which case, we disagree on what Space Marines are.
30k Marines are Marines. 40k Marines are Marines. Primaris are Marines. It's not about if they have an extra dude in the squad who carries a different weapon - if I built a modern Tactical Squad with only bolters, would they not be Tactical Marines?

And 30K "Tactical Squads" of all bolters are not at all interesting to me.
Yes, not interesting, perhaps, but they ARE Space Marines, they ARE Adeptus Astartes.
Doctrinally Legions and Chapters are quite different. I much prefer Chapters, which are specifically built around more independently operable squads.
But they're still both Space Marines. As I said above, if I built a Tactical Squad with no heavy or special weapons, are they not a Tactical Squad any more?

Marines had rules to incorporate the idea of Drop Pods in 3rd. Drop Pods were part of Marine lore since before 2nd Edition, as part of the Epic rule set.
And Primaris have Drop Pods, as seen in the Warhammer Adventures books. They just don't have them in game.

Read the history of the Charadon Crusade: The Crusade of Fury was at an end.
Join the Crion Crusade: I think it's the combination of butt jokes, democratic necrons, explosions, and mind-fething that draws people to this Crusade like moths to a bug zapper - War Kitten
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Iowa

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?

Wow. A Grenade Launcher. Woooooow.
Functions pretty much the same as a missile launcher does, just a bit weaker. That's more than can be said of 30k Marines.

30K Marines are plainly not Chapter Marines, and not "classic" marines, as "classic" marines are squads organized with the RTB01 kit into the modern Tactical Squad.
In which case, we disagree on what Space Marines are.
30k Marines are Marines. 40k Marines are Marines. Primaris are Marines. It's not about if they have an extra dude in the squad who carries a different weapon - if I built a modern Tactical Squad with only bolters, would they not be Tactical Marines?

And 30K "Tactical Squads" of all bolters are not at all interesting to me.
Yes, not interesting, perhaps, but they ARE Space Marines, they ARE Adeptus Astartes.
Doctrinally Legions and Chapters are quite different. I much prefer Chapters, which are specifically built around more independently operable squads.
But they're still both Space Marines. As I said above, if I built a Tactical Squad with no heavy or special weapons, are they not a Tactical Squad any more?

Marines had rules to incorporate the idea of Drop Pods in 3rd. Drop Pods were part of Marine lore since before 2nd Edition, as part of the Epic rule set.
And Primaris have Drop Pods, as seen in the Warhammer Adventures books. They just don't have them in game.

I heard they also have land raiders in the Silver Templars book.

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For the record, Jes Goodwin specifically states in the Voxcast that he stopped sculpting as soon as they moved to digital.

And honestly, it's so plain and obvious that I don't know why I even bothered to check. The new aesthetic is "space marines filtered through the hands of video game sci-fi ZBrush artists" and it really shows.
   
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 barboggo wrote:
For the record, Jes Goodwin specifically states in the Voxcast that he stopped sculpting as soon as they moved to digital.

Yes, he doesn't sculpt them personally, but he leads the design process; draws the sketches and even does greenstuff mockups. They're pretty much his creation.

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 Crimson wrote:
 barboggo wrote:
For the record, Jes Goodwin specifically states in the Voxcast that he stopped sculpting as soon as they moved to digital.

Yes, he doesn't sculpt them personally, but he leads the design process; draws the sketches and even does greenstuff mockups. They're pretty much his creation.


Being a lead, and being the actual sculptor is miles and miles of difference. Take it from someone who has been both lead and sculptor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Spoiler:
Insectum7 wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:Without the ability to mix weapons in the squad.
Eliminators can. And one guy per squad can take an Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

30k Marines also couldn't mix weapons. Are they not Marines too?
Without Rhinos or Drop Pods.
We didn't have Drop Pods before 5th. Were Marines only Marines after 5th?

Wow. A Grenade Launcher. Woooooow.
Functions pretty much the same as a missile launcher does, just a bit weaker. That's more than can be said of 30k Marines.

30K Marines are plainly not Chapter Marines, and not "classic" marines, as "classic" marines are squads organized with the RTB01 kit into the modern Tactical Squad.
In which case, we disagree on what Space Marines are.
30k Marines are Marines. 40k Marines are Marines. Primaris are Marines. It's not about if they have an extra dude in the squad who carries a different weapon - if I built a modern Tactical Squad with only bolters, would they not be Tactical Marines?

And 30K "Tactical Squads" of all bolters are not at all interesting to me.
Yes, not interesting, perhaps, but they ARE Space Marines, they ARE Adeptus Astartes.
Doctrinally Legions and Chapters are quite different. I much prefer Chapters, which are specifically built around more independently operable squads.
But they're still both Space Marines. As I said above, if I built a Tactical Squad with no heavy or special weapons, are they not a Tactical Squad any more?

Marines had rules to incorporate the idea of Drop Pods in 3rd. Drop Pods were part of Marine lore since before 2nd Edition, as part of the Epic rule set.
And Primaris have Drop Pods, as seen in the Warhammer Adventures books. They just don't have them in game.



There are Marines, and there are Marines. Classic Tactical, Devastator etc. are the latter. It is what it is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 21:59:38


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Being a lead, and being the actual sculptor is miles and miles of difference. Take it from someone who has been both lead and sculptor.


Spoiler:



They seem to be following his concepts pretty damn faithfully.

There are Marines, and there are Marines. Classic Tactical, Devastator etc. are the latter. It is what it is.

So it is arbitrary baseless nonsense?


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^Like I said above, not every piece of work by any given artist is of consistent quality.

"So it is arbitrary baseless nonsense?"
Just because you can't tell the difference, or refuse to acknowledge a difference, doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

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 Insectum7 wrote:
There are Marines, and there are Marines. Classic Tactical, Devastator etc. are the latter. It is what it is.
Honestly, no, I don't get it.

If I took a unit of Tactical Marines without a special or heavy weapon, are they still "Marines", as you put it?

For me, Primaris are just as much a Space Marine as the 40k ones, which are just as much Space Marines as the Legion Astartes. The armour looks fundamentally the same. Their weapons look like they have the same design cues and would be more closely related to eachother than a similar type of weapon from another fictional universe. Their whole design is still more "40k" than it is any other fictional setting.

As I've said above, if you can find me anyone who genuinely believes that this:
Spoiler:

looks more like this:
Spoiler:

than this:
Spoiler:

I'll concede my point.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 22:19:07


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 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Being a lead, and being the actual sculptor is miles and miles of difference. Take it from someone who has been both lead and sculptor.


Spoiler:



They seem to be following his concepts pretty damn faithfully.



Cool sketches btw. Where are they from? I'd love to see more.
   
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 Insectum7 wrote:

Just because you can't tell the difference, or refuse to acknowledge a difference, doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

I can tell the difference: the Primaris look hella lot better.

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 Crimson wrote:
 Insectum7 wrote:

Just because you can't tell the difference, or refuse to acknowledge a difference, doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

I can tell the difference: the Primaris look hella lot better.


Intercessors and Hellblasters look pretty good. The rest of the line we're just going to have to agree to disagree about.

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 barboggo wrote:

Cool sketches btw. Where are they from? I'd love to see more.

I'd love to see more too, but those are the only ones I've managed to find on the internet. I'm not sure where they're from. LE version of the previous marine codex maybe?





This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/08/12 22:21:43


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