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casvalremdeikun wrote: Allegedly, there is a good deal amount of stuff that deals with buildings. So a sizeable portion of the book is trash. Very disappointing.
so the seige masters have tools for a siege?
Isn't that Iron Warriors? I thought Iron Warriors were the siege assault specialists, but the Imperial Fists were the defense specialists?
Dorn did build the Imperial Palace, iirc.
As far as I'm aware at least up until the Horus Heresy novel's that's just fan fiction because apparently people can't stand two legions having the same specialization. I don't think it was ever spelled out as such a simple dichotomy in a GW publication. No clue what the Horus Heresy authors may have added or retconned there, though.
Also, if you want much better fan fiction, the relationship of the two legions should look like this: Imperial Fists are the siege masters. Iron Warriors are the siege apprentices.
Galas wrote: I like stubborn heroism. Is one of the only proper "advantage but with a sensible drawback".
But it would probably be more balanced if it was for damage in meele.
Yeah, the game could use more rules like this.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
So 3 thunderfire canons and 9 quad rapier heavy bolters (you can buy them 3 per slot) comes to only 975...
The rapiers alone put out 108 shots and even with no rerolls average 90 hits do to their trait... All out to 48" ignoring cover at ap -2 and verse vehicles is 2 damage. The thunderfires hit whats hiding out of LOS lmao.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/10/11 15:20:46
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
Sterling191 wrote: Theres also the twin Kheres contemptor mortis to consider as basically a budget Leviathan.
I don’t really think so, unfortunately – speaking as someone who has one of those! I don’t see much of a case for a twin kheres over twin heavy bolter. Going from 24-36” range is massive.
That said, S7 is good. In the example above, it doesn’t only help against T7. It helps against T3, 5, 6 and 7. And the Deredeo’s S8 guns are better against T4 and 8 as well.
I wonder if the math hammer app is factoring in that the autocannons will do 3 damage. I just did some sums myself and Vs a T7 3+ target I have the Contemptor with heavy bolters doing 9.5 and the Deredeo (with nothing on the roof) doing 11.56. The autocontemptor (possibly the most 40k name I’ve yet heard) does 10.83 damage but is the most expensive of the lot. Autocontemptor does 13.05 vs S6 (bolter guy and Deredeo do the same as against S7) but only 7.56 vs T8. Against T8 The Deredeo drops to 9.33, while the heavy bolter guy is almost unchanged compared to T7 (8.45).
I also don’t think (though I haven’t done the sums) that the bolter/cyclone missile launcher is better vs infantry than the deredeo. It might slightly shade it against very soft targets. Deredeo is a lot better against T4 and way better against plaguebearers and Primaris.
By the way my methodology is to use excel. I write in the number of shots to a cell (e.g. A1), the chance to hit in the one below (A2), then chance to wound, chance to fail save and average damage in the cells under that. Then in another cell I calculate the average as “=A1*A2*A3*A4*A5. Do this for all the model’s guns, add up the results, and that’s your average damage. I find this pretty quick. I can just copy and paste the whole lot elsewhere in the sheet and change a few numbers to compare different weapons at once. I didn’t give any of my targets invulnerable saves, which would slightly harm the cyclone, redeemer and leviathan if they were present.
Our of curiosity I also checked a Storm Talon with heavy bolters. It’s significantly less good actually. Against T6 it does 7.56 wounds but against T7 or 8 it’s 5.77 – which is not a lot from 18 shots. I also looked at a redeemer. 9.39 vs T7 or 8, and 14.08 against T6. If a redeemer gets near a T5 vehicle, just remove it to save time.
I also looked at the invictor, wondering whether it should have a flamer or autocannons. I found the flamer beat the autocannons against T8 (doing 5.24 instead of 4.80) but lost out against T7 (doing 6.26 when the autocannon one did 7.14) and T6 (Still 6.25, vs 8.48).
Finally, I had a quick look at a stormcannon leviathan, with D3 guns. This thing is sick, but to be fair >50% more expensive than the other things we’re looking at. 13.89 vs T8 (nothing amazing for the price) but 20.83 vs T7 and 27.78 against T6. With rerolls, it could reasonably expect to kill a Crimson hunter with each of its guns.
I think that what this shows is that the wound roll and base damage still matter. Getting the most damage overall isn’t simply about the number of shots you fire, even with a buff to damage. What matters is the amount of wounding hits that get past a target’s saves, and of course the base damage still matters as well.
To test this theory I looked at a heavy onslaught gatling cannon vs a macro plasma incinerator. Luckily I only had to do this once, as S5 wounds all my targets on a 5+ and S9 wounds them all on a 3+. The plasma incinerator wins: 4.67 damage compared to the gatling’s 3.56. So even with the Fist bonus, 3.5 plasma shots are better than 12 (sort of) heavy bolter shots. That does change if the target has an invulnerable save though, or if it’s 30 plague bearers, so the HOGC might still be the best option. I now realise it would be interesting to compare the full output of the redemptory against our original dreadnoughts, but I’ve got to stop somewhere! Redemptors would be an obvious elite choice pick to unlock relic dreads.
Based on this analysis I still think the Deredeo looks like the way to go. The damage increase is significant vs all the targets I tested and it’s pretty consistently good against all tarets. The quad autocannon guy is significantly more expensive and not much better than the Deredeo vs anything. Eldar planes are the only common T6 targets I think, and the Deredeo is more accurate against them than the contemptor, so it still wins. The Leviathan is awesome in its way but I find its range too short and its risk of being tied up in melee too serious. Better to spread out threats, I think. Flyers might be worth considering, as a way to get at things you can’t see, but TFCs also do this job very well.
This all means there’s a pretty strong case for me finisihing painting my Deredeo. And I think the roof missiles are a perfectly good "take it or leave it" option if you have the points spare.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/10/11 15:49:54
Red Corsair wrote: So 3 thunderfire canons and 9 quad rapier heavy bolters (you can buy them 3 per slot) comes to only 975...
The rapiers alone put out 108 shots and even with no rerolls average 90 hits do to their trait... All out to 48" ignoring cover at ap -2 and verse vehicles is 2 damage. The thunderfires hit whats hiding out of LOS lmao.
Mandragola wrote: I think the Deredeo might be the better dread option. Tons of shots (don’t forget the heavy bolters) and the 5++ aura.
The problem for Fists now is that they are being viewed through the lens of Iron Hands – who are broken. This makes them look bad, but it makes everyone else look bad too. It’s kind of an unfair comparison.
Seismic Devastation will indeed be a big deal. If my Crimson Fists can do it, I'll be very happy.
I honestly don't really care too much about the 5++ aura. For Fists in cover, with the benefits we're seeing from things like Warlord Traits and the Psychic Discipline, you'd need something like AP -5 to even trigger the need for it against Infantry. So you either go without it, which reduces the cost (nice), or you go with the missiles which makes the comparison a bit harder to consider as it inflates the cost even further.
Using the autocannon variant, you're giving up +1 to the save, 6+++, increase the cost by a meager 5 points without the missiles or aura, but gain 2 wounds. They look to do pretty much the same damage against most targets thanks to the increased heavy bolter shots from the relic contemptors triggering Siege Masters more often, so it's as close as two units could theoretically be. I think I'll lean on the slightly better defensive stats and mobility of the relic contemptors, but may consider one Deredeo to act as anti-Fly if I can't fit in any more stalkers.
Not sure I agree they're all that similar. The Deredeo also has a twin heavy bolter, so it’s a question of a second twin heavy bolter on the contemptor, vs the anvillus array on the deredeo. So 8 shots at S8 D3 for the Deredeo vs 6 shots at S5 D2 for the contemptor. The deredeo has more shots that are more likely to wound, causing more damage. Against planes they’re more accurate as well. It doesn’t seem like a tough choice to me.
I’ve never used the missiles on top of a Deredeo. On the whole I think they’re overcosted. Actually as Fists they seem like they could be justifiable, as ~4 more shots at S6 is pretty good – equivalent to adding on slightly more than 1/3 of the contemptor’s firepower (better strength and range). The 5++ aura may well not be needed, but it’s an option. I generally don’t take either.
Anyway it looks like dreadnoughts, of various varieties, could be a good option for Crimson Fists. They are relatively tough and you have the strat to halve damage, making it tricky to focus one down. A straight up redemptor with onslaught gatlings and an Icarus pod is pretty great and not that expensive – and a candidate for the Deredeo aura. It’s a very different beast to the relic contemptor, but on the face of it there are a lot more bullets getting sent down range and the fist could definitely come in handy (sorry).
You're forgetting to factor in the Cyclone since the comparison I'm talking about is points related. I apologize for not making that clearer. For 182 points you get 4 heavy bolters and a 2 shot missile launcher. For 187 points on the Deredeo you get a very slightly squishier unit with a couple more wounds that has more of the Str 8 shooting, but less of the exploding bolter 2 damage shooting. The mathhammer I ran through it showed the Deredeo doing about 1 point of damage more against most targets, which to me seemed to indicate they're fairly equivalent choices given the points cost. Trade slightly more damage for slightly more resiliency.
Once you start adding the missile launcher to the Deredeo it outpaces the Relic Contemptor, but then you're not really comparing ~180-190 point units in a tight list. The same is true about the pavaise - if that's considered for the Deredeo baseline, then the value comes from what it's protecting over the Relic Contemptor. I personally think the decision for the pavaise is a pretty easy one to make - I think it's largely worthless if you're using it to buff infantry. If your army includes any other pieces that don't already bring an invuln, then I could see it being quite valuable for someone.
Groaning favourably at the pun, btw.
Aha. Yes, the cyclone does make a difference. Fair point then. And I agree that the value of the Pavaise sort of shouldn't be factored in, because it protects other stuff and not the Deredeo - but if you do want it then the Deredeo becomes kind of the obvious choice.
I've tended to not like cyclones. That might actually change once you add devastator doctrine. Their cost has also come down significantly, making them a very interesting option.
I wonder if quad autocannon contemptors are the way to go. You lose four shots but the damage remains the same I think (8x3 instead of 12x2) and you're more likely to wound. No exploding 6s though. It strikes me that this is better in general, but maybe not better with Fist CTs. I wonder if there's a successor chapter that would really benefit it though. Adding something like Master of Artisans to a Cyclone does quite a lot.
Hmm, I do like the autocannon idea, and even though it balloons the unit's cost a bit it does look pretty powerful, even if it's only more likely to wound against T7 vehicles (which is valuable to have, no doubt). I ran the numbers through the mathhammer app to get an idea of where they might stack up. Obviously, against T7 vehicles, the autocannons outdamage the bolter option. It starts at about half a point of damage different until you start stacking on the reroll auras, at which point it balloons to about 1.16 damage more.
Where it gets really insane is when you consider a T8 target with those same reroll auras applied. I don't know if this app is reputable (it's from the mathhammer 40k website guy) and I'm not in a position to run the numbers manually myself. but it indicates that the bolter guy does a whole 2.2 damage more than the autocannons, likely triggered entirely by those exploding sixes.
But now that I look at this, it doesn't make much sense. I think it's not working right with the exploding six logic...
Which brings us right back around - if it's the maths that are off, then the Deredeo is the superior choice here. My apologies!
Sterling191 wrote: Theres also the twin Kheres contemptor mortis to consider as basically a budget Leviathan.
I don’t really think so, unfortunately – speaking as someone who has one of those! I don’t see much of a case for a twin kheres over twin heavy bolter. Going from 24-36” range is massive.
That said, S7 is good. In the example above, it doesn’t only help against T7. It helps against T3, 5, 6 and 7. And the Deredeo’s S8 guns are better against T4 and 8 as well.
I wonder if the math hammer app is factoring in that the autocannons will do 3 damage. I just did some sums myself and Vs a T7 3+ target I have the Contemptor with heavy bolters doing 9.5 and the Deredeo (with nothing on the roof) doing 11.56. The autocontemptor (possibly the most 40k name I’ve yet heard) does 10.83 damage but is the most expensive of the lot. Autocontemptor does 13.05 vs S6 (bolter guy and Deredeo do the same as against S7) but only 7.56 vs T8. Against T8 The Deredeo drops to 9.33, while the heavy bolter guy is almost unchanged compared to T7 (8.45).
I also don’t think (though I haven’t done the sums) that the bolter/cyclone missile launcher is better vs infantry than the deredeo. It might slightly shade it against very soft targets. Deredeo is a lot better against T4 and way better against plaguebearers and Primaris.
By the way my methodology is to use excel. I write in the number of shots to a cell (e.g. A1), the chance to hit in the one below (A2), then chance to wound, chance to fail save and average damage in the cells under that. Then in another cell I calculate the average as “=A1*A2*A3*A4*A5. Do this for all the model’s guns, add up the results, and that’s your average damage. I find this pretty quick. I can just copy and paste the whole lot elsewhere in the sheet and change a few numbers to compare different weapons at once. I didn’t give any of my targets invulnerable saves, which would slightly harm the cyclone, redeemer and leviathan if they were present.
Our of curiosity I also checked a Storm Talon with heavy bolters. It’s significantly less good actually. Against T6 it does 7.56 wounds but against T7 or 8 it’s 5.77 – which is not a lot from 18 shots. I also looked at a redeemer. 9.39 vs T7 or 8, and 14.08 against T6. If a redeemer gets near a T5 vehicle, just remove it to save time.
I also looked at the invictor, wondering whether it should have a flamer or autocannons. I found the flamer beat the autocannons against T8 (doing 5.24 instead of 4.80) but lost out against T7 (doing 6.26 when the autocannon one did 7.14) and T6 (Still 6.25, vs 8.48).
Finally, I had a quick look at a stormcannon leviathan, with D3 guns. This thing is sick, but to be fair >50% more expensive than the other things we’re looking at. 13.89 vs T8 (nothing amazing for the price) but 20.83 vs T7 and 27.78 against T6. With rerolls, it could reasonably expect to kill a Crimson hunter with each of its guns.
I think that what this shows is that the wound roll and base damage still matter. Getting the most damage overall isn’t simply about the number of shots you fire, even with a buff to damage. What matters is the amount of wounding hits that get past a target’s saves, and of course the base damage still matters as well.
To test this theory I looked at a heavy onslaught gatling cannon vs a macro plasma incinerator. Luckily I only had to do this once, as S5 wounds all my targets on a 5+ and S9 wounds them all on a 3+. The plasma incinerator wins: 4.67 damage compared to the gatling’s 3.56. So even with the Fist bonus, 3.5 plasma shots are better than 12 (sort of) heavy bolter shots. That does change if the target has an invulnerable save though, or if it’s 30 plague bearers, so the HOGC might still be the best option. I now realise it would be interesting to compare the full output of the redemptory against our original dreadnoughts, but I’ve got to stop somewhere! Redemptors would be an obvious elite choice pick to unlock relic dreads.
Based on this analysis I still think the Deredeo looks like the way to go. The damage increase is significant vs all the targets I tested and it’s pretty consistently good against all tarets. The quad autocannon guy is significantly more expensive and not much better than the Deredeo vs anything. Eldar planes are the only common T6 targets I think, and the Deredeo is more accurate against them than the contemptor, so it still wins. The Leviathan is awesome in its way but I find its range too short and its risk of being tied up in melee too serious. Better to spread out threats, I think. Flyers might be worth considering, as a way to get at things you can’t see, but TFCs also do this job very well.
This all means there’s a pretty strong case for me finisihing painting my Deredeo. And I think the roof missiles are a perfectly good "take it or leave it" option if you have the points spare.
You're totally right that it is better against those other targets - I was making another unspoken assumption as to the purpose of either unit in my list. Boy am I a mess today! TGIF
Yeah, I took into account the 3 damage on the autocannons. The figures I received under the reroll auras (I felt safe assuming this for my use case on these units) was the boltertemptor (sounds suggestive) at 8.91 against T7, 3+ vehicle equivalents and the same against T8 3+, 5++ Knight style units with the cyclone adding 4.81 against T8 and 7.36 against T7 for a total of 13.72 vs T8 and 16.27 against T7. The cyclone is really what helps this vehicle compete with the nearly equal points costed Deredeo. Throw an immobile Deredeo in front of some unit with Fly and it's not really much of a comparison, though.
The Deredeo under the same circumstances was rocking 4.68 from the bolters against KEQ and VEQ, with 10.07 against KEQ and 13.43 against VEQ. You might wonder why I'm focusing so much on T7 and T8 over everything else - that was the unspoken assumption. These units with their high volume of shots and exploding hits are what I intend to use against those targets primarily, at least in the first few turns until they're dead and buried and I can move on to boltering everything else to death.
This comparison led me to believe either my D6+1 logic or the additional hit on a six logic is wrong. Either way, for my specific case I think they're similar enough that I might stick with the Relic Contemptors for a variety of unrelated reasons (unrelated to raw damage, that is) as the numbers appear to be close enough that the slight offensive downturn is worth some of the other tactical benefits I feel they may bring.
Ahh fair enough if you’re counting auras. I think I’m right in saying those should help the higher-strength weapons most, because they reroll a higher proportion of failed wounds and then more of those rerolls go on to wound. Likewise the deredeo doesn’t care much about invulnerable saves.
The overall outcome seems to be that these two similarly-priced models have very similar power. That seems to be working as intended. If you think the Contemptor is better, take it.
What do you reckon we should take to unlock these relics? Contemptor and redemptor dreads seem like good options to me. If taking redemptors it probably makes sense for the deredeos to bring shields. There are about a bajillion elite choices in the book though. I could see myself putting a few assault centurions in a redeemer for lols, though that’s probably awful. I like it for the “wait, what?” quality it brings.
Mandragola wrote: Ahh fair enough if you’re counting auras. I think I’m right in saying those should help the higher-strength weapons most, because they reroll a higher proportion of failed wounds and then more of those rerolls go on to wound. Likewise the deredeo doesn’t care much about invulnerable saves.
The overall outcome seems to be that these two similarly-priced models have very similar power. That seems to be working as intended. If you think the Contemptor is better, take it.
What do you reckon we should take to unlock these relics? Contemptor and redemptor dreads seem like good options to me. If taking redemptors it probably makes sense for the deredeos to bring shields. There are about a bajillion elite choices in the book though. I could see myself putting a few assault centurions in a redeemer for lols, though that’s probably awful. I like it for the “wait, what?” quality it brings.
I was planning on using Invictors for the decent offensive capability, early threat saturation, and to support other forward deployed Vanguard elements. I'm still vacillating between even having the forward element or just committing to more mobility in the list.
I guess pretty much anything could work. Aggressors seem great for Fists. Perhaps even Sternguard would be great. I wonder what the exploding sixes do for the maths on SiB vs storm Bolters...
Those assault cents would be hilarious. If I had a Redeemer I'd do it.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
I noticed there's no dice again. This actually is reassuring for me, as it's now apparent that the packaging mistake is holding up the dice for everyone (I REALLY wanted iron hands dice)
Dice always make good stocking stuffers, so hopefully they'll show up by December.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
IF Centurions are the go to now. With the spec detachment they're always in cover, and spit out a nauseating number of mortal wounds on vehicles. They were dirty before but they'll be a meta pick with d2 on their hbs. Mortal wounds vs IH, mortal wounds plus D2 HBs for everyone else.
Yes. It is about damn time with those Impulsors. I was about to have a friend 3D print a pair for me.
From the sounds of it, there is a good deal of stuff for Crimson Fists in the IF book (I still think we should get our own Super Doctrine since the other one doesn't fit us at all).
Def getting two Impulsors, the Codex Supplement, and an IF Upgrade box. I might get Tor as well, if I can kitbash him into a regular Captain in Gravis Armor easily enough.
I really want to see what the relics are in the book.
It’s definitely good that all the models are out and we can finally see the whole impact of the release. I’ve hated this spread out release myself and haven’t bought anything yet, since I didn’t know what would be good for my Crimson Fists. Still not sure I know!
As far as Rules go, the Fists seem by far the most interesting of the Two books here, at least to me. Salamanders seem to be sort of stuck with a chapter tactic that makes you good at hitting and a super doctrine for guns that don’t actually roll to hit. And of the two books released today, isn’t the one that adds +1 damage to heavy flamers actually better anyway?
Plus, flamers are for killing hordes. Primaris troops already beat hordes. Marginally better flamers aren’t required. They do look cool while they’re doing it though.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Does this mean that Primaris Sergeants will get access to Thunder Hammers and Hand Flamers now?
They already have that. Well, the Intercessors Sergeants have. GW for some reason doesn't seem to understand that it would be possible to glue the upgrade bits on other models as well.
Yeah I think they made a special model with hand flamer and chainsword. The store birthday mini or something. Now that there’s an upgrade sprue it should be allowed for all sergeants, probably replacing the bolt pistol.
It’s a terrible weapon of course. I guess you’d use it in cc, or for overwatch if you got a chance. You’re not likely to. Swapping out your rifle for a hand flamer would be an absurd choice, other than for flavour reasons.
5250 pts
3850 pts
2500 pts 
