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 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
A pretty decent review. https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-imperial-fists-the-goonhammer-review/
I can see some pretty decent stuff.

Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.

Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!

He might have been a Canadian! I can't tell.

Just ask them to say "colour" or "armour". That silent you makes it completely different.

I am looking at doing Indomitable or Stubborn Heroism and Refuse to Die for my Captain. Makes him hard to kill and then makes him hard to keep down. I am liking the Fist of Terra relic. Two relic Power Fists to choose from is pretty great.

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
A pretty decent review. https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-imperial-fists-the-goonhammer-review/
I can see some pretty decent stuff.

Thank Emperor a written review! I tried to watch a Youtube video by some mumbling American who had forgotten to take his Ritalin, but I couldn't power through it.

Most of the ones out are from Canadians or Brits, you prick!

He might have been a Canadian! I can't tell.

Don't make me hurt you!

But yeah a written review is nice. I agree much better then youtube. I disagree with his idea that indomatable from vigilus is still usable, the new one clearly overwrites the other

Pedro has got subtly better in a few ways, with the effect that overall he looks like a pretty solid option all round. He now has seven attacks on the charge. Proper full rerolls for everyone nearby, and also +1 attack. And he might do stuff with his gun from time to time. I'm pretty happy with this.

Pedro is really good. He basically has a primaris statline too. My only problem with him is that he can't ride the primaris transports.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
A pretty decent review. https://www.goonhammer.com/codex-supplement-imperial-fists-the-goonhammer-review/

I can see some pretty decent stuff.

Thanks for this link, excellent review and a new site to look over!

 Crimson wrote:
Pedro is really good. He basically has a primaris statline too. My only problem with him is that he can't ride the primaris transports.

That is my issue as well. I would love for him to have had a rule that allowed it. But he hits like a tank and grants OpSec with his WL trait. Not bad.

I believe there is a way to give him a different WL trait using a Stratagem. I am going to make a tanky Captain with the Fist of Vengeance though.

"Brothers! We stand at the very precipice of glory! The Orks that have plagued us for so long have been beaten back to this final fortress. We have but to make one last push, and the wretched Greenskins will be eliminated from our world once and for all."
"Hail Master Kantor!"
"It has been an honour to serve with each and every one of you, my brothers. And we are blessed by the Emperor Himself to have been joined by our new Primaris brethren."
"Hail Master Kantor!"
"So ride with me, one last time, and let us finally remove the stain of defeat from the annals of the Crimson Fists!"
"Hail Master Kant... whoa... wait, sorry, sir... what are you doing?"
"Joining you, my brothers, in glorious combat."
"Uhhh... but this is a Primaris transport."
"And a glorious transport it is. All the better to make haste and end the lives of these xenos scum even sooner."
"You can't come with us though."
"What? Why not? I am your Chapter Master!"
"Yes, but as we said, this is a Primaris transport."
"I... I don't understand. Make room. I am your commander!"
"I really wish we could, sir, but unfortunately you're uhh... sorry. You can go in one of the mini-Marine transports."
"Mini whatnow?"
"Bye sir! Try to keep up!"

40K is dumb.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

I believe there is a way to give him a different WL trait using a Stratagem. I am going to make a tanky Captain with the Fist of Vengeance though.

If it's anything like the Raven Guard stratagem, "Master of the Trifold Path", then it explicitly calls out no named characters.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

I believe there is a way to give him a different WL trait using a Stratagem. I am going to make a tanky Captain with the Fist of Vengeance though.

If it's anything like the Raven Guard stratagem, "Master of the Trifold Path", then it explicitly calls out no named characters.

Yeah, I am thinking that would be the case. I think Hero of the Chapter doesn't work for this either. Oh well. Pedro is never my Warlord to begin with.

I do like that there are two Power Fist relics for Crimson Fists. I might give one to a Sergeant.

Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.

WhiteDog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.

Other Chapters are doing suicide Captains better I can guarantee that.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

WhiteDog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

They have some chapter specific relics (a good power fist) too.

Other Chapters are doing suicide Captains better I can guarantee that.

Salamaders certainly are now that's for sure.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

Vigilus' Siegebreaker Cohort and its nice strat, if it doesn't get errata'd out of existence.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.

Guard players aren't even running Conscripts anymore, so there's not much to be gained.

CF are usually played as an MSU armt which fits Primaris quite well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

I suspect IFs vs crimson fists will depend on your local meta. if your local meta has a LOT of guard and Ork players, running large squads Crimson Fists are gonna be slightly better if your meta however lacks a lotta folks running large squads Imperial Fists will be better.

Guard players aren't even running Conscripts anymore, so there's not much to be gained.

keep in mind when I said "large squads" I meant more "forced to run squads of 10" because almost no one runs squads bigger.

Siegebreaker is better than anything the CF bring to the table, but if it gets nerfed/removed then I can see why people would go for CF. Pedro is an absolute weapon, their WL traits are better and they get two extra strats that are both pretty decent too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

What better bonus? You lose 'no cover save' which doesn't even matter for half of the armies in this game, gaining instead a really good bonus to hit which almost always works for your characters, and will work pretty often for not only your 5 men primaris MSU, but also for tons of 3 men, elite, heavy shooting squads primaris have in abundance. It will also make your opponent think twice before committing to opportunistic shooting of your units with something weak to not help them by triggering the bonus. And that's without considering CF have big F-YOU psychic power to anything sitting in cover so opponent will have to think twice about that too.

Moreover, CF stratagem works against big and popular army (orks), not obscure subfaction (IW) IF get, and that's assuming your local Iron Warriors aren't now Ultramarines or Iron Hands who scraped paint off and painted some hazard stripes on. CF also have better stratagems and relics, don't waste time losing bonuses on anti-building garbage, really, I'd always pick CF first, then IF successor, then IF themselves, they are worst part of the book...

I don’t think IF are bad at all. Tor Garson is kind of great. So is the eye of Hypnoth on a chapter master - negating the need for a lieutenant and letting you take some other HQ entirely.

Successors offer some interesting options too. I think autocannon a might be better than heavy bolter spam really, and there are lots good good alternatives to exploding 6s.

I think the book is in a good place overall. The different options look quite balanced.

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

What better bonus? You lose 'no cover save' which doesn't even matter for half of the armies in this game, gaining instead a really good bonus to hit which almost always works for your characters, and will work pretty often for not only your 5 men primaris MSU, but also for tons of 3 men, elite, heavy shooting squads primaris have in abundance. It will also make your opponent think twice before committing to opportunistic shooting of your units with something weak to not help them by triggering the bonus. And that's without considering CF have big F-YOU psychic power to anything sitting in cover so opponent will have to think twice about that too.

Moreover, CF stratagem works against big and popular army (orks), not obscure subfaction (IW) IF get, and that's assuming your local Iron Warriors aren't now Ultramarines or Iron Hands who scraped paint off and painted some hazard stripes on. CF also have better stratagems and relics, don't waste time losing bonuses on anti-building garbage, really, I'd always pick CF first, then IF successor, then IF themselves, they are worst part of the book...

1. Doesn't matter for half the armies in the game? Ya know, besides the armies that need to camp in cover and all the sub factions that gain the cover bonus outside 12" (and we can eventually expect Altaioc + Stygies + Alpha to join in)? Your 3 man squads were also nerfed with the new wording to the rule, as now it only triggers when they target a squad of 8+ instead of 6+. Plus most opponents focus fire, so chances are you're not just gonna end up with a weakened squad benefitting, and at that low of numbers they aren't doing any damage anyway. Also yeah your vehicles aren't likely gonna benefit either!
Also getting a bonus vs Orks isn't impressive because Fists are supposed to be a shooting army anyway.
So yeah Crimson Fists are terrible because you have to rely on a bunch of "what if my opponent does XYZ in list building", whereas Imperial Fists straight up negate good deployment for any army besides Daemons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Crimson Fists are still a worse version of Imperial Fists. Only thing they have going for them is Pedro, and that's a named Character.

Name one thing you lose by going CF instead of IF (save for two lame, ugly minis with bad rules and massive headache painting yellow).

Protip - you can't

If anything, CF are IF++, not only is their trait better, character massively better, but they also have access to all IF stuff and more besides...

You lose a better bonus to your shooting. Crimson Fist trait is full on garbage because it relies on the opponent purposely building their army to benefit you. Meanwhile Imperial Fists just don't get their bonus vs Daemons. Otherwise they don't care how you deploy into terrain, and actually negate the best army bonuses available (let's be honest, everyone is gonna switch from -1 to hit to the counts-as-in-cover bonus).

Ah yes blood axes are dominating the ork meta

Infact orks don't care one whiff do they have cover or not. 6+/5+ isn't that big deal as 3/2, 5+ goes to 6+ pretty much always and with marines -2 is pretty much baseline so is ignored all together with or without ignore cover. And that's even if you somehow fit into terrain which orks don't.