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YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

Arson Fire wrote:
Maybe you can catch someone off guard from time to time, but personally I don't put much value in something that requires my opponent to make an easily correctable mistake in order to work.

I am saying counter charge, as in my charge failed to work and they're considering their options. I swarm like hell and do my best to box the enemy in even in the case I fail a charge, I've left people with out other options than charging or eating a charge the next turn. Typically in cases where holding an objective is important. Go a head, pull back out of objective range to get the charge you can't re roll without wasting CP on it. You'll have to move far enough back to make closing back in a question to avoid the hand flamers, and that's even more than I could ask for in such things. These aren't specialized melee units, find a reason to make them not be able to move or not want to move and you can hammer them with things like this.

Typically I pull things like dropping a particularly large unit around someone at 3 inches, or drop 2 or 3 units on opposing sides of them and see if I can get them where I want them. It's really not that hard to pull off, it's just a matter of pulling the enemy out of their castle which objectives are great for.

There's no easy way to say this, but I think you might be playing against...well, let's just call them subpar opponents. Screening is both required and extremely simple to do in 40k at any reasonable level of competence. Anybody allowing you to drop units on multiple sides of them, even with the various Deep Strike tricks GSC can pull off, is a bit of an idiot. Also, making a 6" charge is hardly the most difficult thing in the world - about 72% chance in fact. There's no reason to pull back out of hand flamer range for next turn, especially since that would be out of charge range anyway so doesn't make any sense if you're trying to counter charge.

Not all armies have the numbers to screen.

As others have said, I think Overwatch should really involve some meaningful choice (rather than just being a free shooting attack at crap BS).

As it stands, for the vast majority of units it just feels like a time-wasting mechanic.

It's unlikely to accomplish anything but because it's completely free there's no reason not to try anyway.

 bullyboy wrote:
agreed with earlier poster, falling back should allow melee units to swing needing 6s.

Yea, I like this and then the stratagems forcing units to stay in combat are still useful.

I find 40k takes a really long time because it assumes every unit might do about eight things a turn (move, cast power, shoot, charge, fight, deny power, overwatch, fight again), and that's without stratagems allowing you to do even more things. I recognize usually most units won't do eight things a turn but adding more steps to the turn to need to check whether units can do/whether it'd be a good idea for units to do independent of whether they actually do them in the end is just going to make things slow down even more.

Arson Fire wrote:

YeOldSaltPotato wrote:

And honestly, as GSC I use overwatch to my advantage constantly. It's real fun watching the thinking process kick in when I remind my opponent their counter charge from 5 inches is going to be eating 10 hand flamers in overwatch.

To be fair, if your opponent takes those 10 hand flamers of overwatch, then they've simply failed to position their unit properly.
The hand flamers only have 6" range, so the opponent can move their unit to put a single guy slightly within 6" of one of the hand flamer models, so they take only 1 flamer of overwatch, and make it an easy 5" charge.

Maybe you can catch someone off guard from time to time, but personally I don't put much value in something that requires my opponent to make an easily correctable mistake in order to work.

Oh yeah. That mechanic, where you can avoid getting shot by a flamethrower as you close to point-blank range as long as you start far enough away.

Actual footage of charging from outside Overwatch range:

I don't mind that overwatch is automatic and not a choice.
I don't find rolling dice boring or a waste of time (and always find this argument a bit strange, as fundamentally thats the core mechanic to the game alongside "pick up models").

My problem is that its so swingy.
Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, oh look your chaos lord took a lascannon to the face and is dead.
Which isn't indicative of good play by you or your opponent - its pure luck.
To some degree the whole game is about luck - but this always feels especially egregious.

The way it works also means you can build up shooting units that have a critical mass, and will, with reasonable luck, inflict terrible damage on anything that has the temerity to actually charge you directly. So you end up with this stupid "I'm charging X, but will position in such a way to tag unit Y in exchange for a couple of punches even though I can't now attack that unit because I didn't charge". Some would say this sort of thing is what makes playing an assault army fun - but I feel in some ways its not explicitly designed for by GW, and it feels a bit gamey.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I find 40k takes a really long time because it assumes every unit might do about eight things a turn (move, cast power, shoot, charge, fight, deny power, overwatch, fight again), and that's without stratagems allowing you to do even more things. I recognize usually most units won't do eight things a turn but adding more steps to the turn to need to check whether units can do/whether it'd be a good idea for units to do independent of whether they actually do them in the end is just going to make things slow down even more.

A lot of post-40K wargames (eg Starship Troopers or Dust) have gotten around this by introducing an actions mechanic.

Typically each unit gets two actions, which can be spent to do things like move, shoot, use an ability, take cover, go on overwatch, etc, but can't do the same action twice. Then in addition, you can spend both actions to do one thing better- eg move faster, or shoot with sustained fire.

This then seamlessly blends with a reactions system. Enemy is charging you before you've had a chance to act? You can spend an action immediately to fire on the charging unit (often at reduced effectiveness), or move to try and evade the charge. Either way, when your unit activates, it'll only have one action available. Throw in alternating activation and you get some interestingly dynamic gameplay.

In the end units can't do eight things per turn so you have to make more choices about exactly what your units will do at any given moment, rather than just iterating through the phases and taking the actions available to you (eg I have little reason /not/ to try casting with all my psykers whenever I can). But this would represent a pretty massive departure from how 40K currently works, so it'll likely never happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyel wrote:
I don't find rolling dice boring or a waste of time (and always find this argument a bit strange, as fundamentally thats the core mechanic to the game alongside "pick up models").

Rolling dice is an action resolution mechanic, not a gameplay mechanic (ie something that gives you decision space to interact with the game and your opponent).

A good designer is always looking to reduce the amount of time spent on the mechanical tasks that are needed to facilitate gameplay. Placing and removing tokens is another common example.

If a mechanic involves a lot of tedious dice-rolling for ultimately little impact on the game or opportunity for meaningful decision-making, then it's a bad mechanic. This isn't Yahtzee; we're not rolling dice for its own sake.

Tyel wrote:
My problem is that its so swingy.
Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, oh look your chaos lord took a lascannon to the face and is dead.
Which isn't indicative of good play by you or your opponent - its pure luck.
To some degree the whole game is about luck - but this always feels especially egregious.

The way it works also means you can build up shooting units that have a critical mass, and will, with reasonable luck, inflict terrible damage on anything that has the temerity to actually charge you directly. So you end up with this stupid "I'm charging X, but will position in such a way to tag unit Y in exchange for a couple of punches even though I can't now attack that unit because I didn't charge". Some would say this sort of thing is what makes playing an assault army fun - but I feel in some ways its not explicitly designed for by GW, and it feels a bit gamey.

If your Lord gets popped in the mouth by a lascannon then you've done something wrong - either by not supporting him or taking an unnecessary risk. Even if you were forced into that scenario you still had a choice.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
My problem is that its so swingy.
Nothing, Nothing, Nothing, oh look your chaos lord took a lascannon to the face and is dead.
Which isn't indicative of good play by you or your opponent - its pure luck.
To some degree the whole game is about luck - but this always feels especially egregious.

The way it works also means you can build up shooting units that have a critical mass, and will, with reasonable luck, inflict terrible damage on anything that has the temerity to actually charge you directly. So you end up with this stupid "I'm charging X, but will position in such a way to tag unit Y in exchange for a couple of punches even though I can't now attack that unit because I didn't charge". Some would say this sort of thing is what makes playing an assault army fun - but I feel in some ways its not explicitly designed for by GW, and it feels a bit gamey.

If your Lord gets popped in the mouth by a lascannon then you've done something wrong - either by not supporting him or taking an unnecessary risk. Even if you were forced into that scenario you still had a choice.

The choice being charge the lascannon and rely on it missing when it has to hit on a 6 or not charge and get shot next turn by the lascannon at full BS?

One game I killed one Ezekiel that charged one of my tactical squads with a lasscannon shot in overwatch with a 6 damage roll.

It feel great for me. It felt really bad for my opponent.

I've had Leman Russ Demolishers annihilate a terminator squads on overwatch a few times, and I've had a ten man squad of lychguard cut in half by hellblasters on overwatch. As was said above, you don't feel good when you do it to someone, just apologetic, and it sucks when it's done to you because it's really just a lottery on whether you get your unit to combat.

What's been suggested already where there needs to be a consequence makes sense.

Maybe if it worked like denial on the psychic phase, where you can only OW one squad, but being tagged by a charging unit doesn't deny you your chance. Considering charges are meant to be concurrent, it wouldn't break immersion too much.

Or, if you chose to OW, then you can't fall back the following movement phase.

My IG squads are too effective at stopping assaults. They just take the hit, if they die, I can then delete the assaulting unit on my turn, and if they survive, they fall back, and I delete the unit.

The effort of getting value out of assault units just doesn't compare to the ease of denying or punishing it.

It is starting to become a joke in my gaming group that my Bad Moons can't hit anything unless it is in Overwatch where have been managing a few hits/kills. I am not really bothered by the Overwatch mechanics in general. As someone that almost always plays a more melee focused armies, it is just something you take into consideration before the assault.

Nightlord1987 wrote:Not that it would see much use in 40k, I do like the Killteam approach of either fire Overwatch, or retreat 3 inches and screw your opponents charge. I kinda hope 9th takes some of Killteam and some of Apocalypse to make a more interactive system for both players.

I forgot that wasn't allowed in full 40k. I do agree that it should be there though. I don't make use of it all that often in Kill Team, but it is nice to know you have it in your pocket when some wild-eyed, eight-foot-tall maniac is tying to grab your neck, tap the back of your favorite head up against the hab block wall, looking you crooked in the eye, and asking you if you paid your dues and tries a 10" charge. You can just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have you paid your dues, Jack? Yes sir, the check is in the mail." and I fall back 3" turning that into a 12" charge.

catbarf wrote:A lot of post-40K wargames (eg Starship Troopers or Dust) have gotten around this by introducing an actions mechanic.

I think Dust Warfare is a great example of a post-WWII weapons game can still be IGOUGO if the designers want it to be. I still miss Warfare's Command and Reaction mechanics. I think Andy Chambers did a great job with that one.

***

Coming from more games that get a free attack leaving melee than don't, not getting an attack in 40k always feels odd to me. Coupled with no reaction to say to try and move in to cover usually leaving a unit out in the open to get gunned Sonny Corleone style feels off to me. I am usually the assaulting player and I usually put some effort into getting that melee to happen. A lot of my melee units are great killing things fast (think Reivers) but given enough time they can chew through stuff most of the time. I never to like going to the effort to get into melee, get a round of attacks and have the unit I was bullying bugger off while his friends proceed to gun down my unit. Sure, be careful who and what you assault, but I would rather have a thing happen than not and usually get stuck in because it is more fun than not. I do agree that that free attack probably shouldn't be a full Weapon Skill. I don't know if 6s is going too far though.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The choice being charge the lascannon and rely on it missing when it has to hit on a 6 or not charge and get shot next turn by the lascannon at full BS?

That entirely depends on what units are left on the table for screening. If you HAVE to make the choice you go in with the full knowledge that it can go south, which is no different than a lascannon shooting a vehicle with 6 wounds left and hoping for a 6.

I think it would be cool if they brought back the notion from 2nd edition where you put a unit on overwatch, and that unit could shoot during an opponent's charge phase.

 catbarf wrote:

Oh yeah. That mechanic, where you can avoid getting shot by a flamethrower as you close to point-blank range as long as you start far enough away.

Actual footage of charging from outside Overwatch range:

Perhaps they could port the "overwatch" that certain units have in AoS: you only get to make the shooting attack if the enemy ends up in combat range as a result of their charge.

 nurgle5 wrote:
Perhaps they could port the "overwatch" that certain units have in AoS: you only get to make the shooting attack if the enemy ends up in combat range as a result of their charge.

Yeah, I think it would be easy enough to have it such that if the enemy unit successfully charges, any weapons that were previously out of range get to Overwatch.

I'd extend it to LOS, too, as the charge from around a corner feels similarly goofy.

You still benefit from charging from a distance or around cover, in that you'll only get Overwatched if you actually roll high enough to succeed, but it's not the cheap trick that it feels like currently.

 catbarf wrote:

 nurgle5 wrote:
Perhaps they could port the "overwatch" that certain units have in AoS: you only get to make the shooting attack if the enemy ends up in combat range as a result of their charge.

Yeah, I think it would be easy enough to have it such that if the enemy unit successfully charges, any weapons that were previously out of range get to Overwatch.

I'd extend it to LOS, too, as the charge from around a corner feels similarly goofy.

You still benefit from charging from a distance or around cover, in that you'll only get Overwatched if you actually roll high enough to succeed, but it's not the cheap trick that it feels like currently.

So feth melee, right?

It's already weaker than shooting, but now you want to make it impossible to charge D-Scythe Wraithguard without eating a faceful of S10 hits?

the game needs some sort of reaction mechanic, the only change I'd make concerns auto hit weapons.

have anything that rolls to hit, hit on a 6 as now
have anything that doesn't roll to hit, roll to hit, hitting on models BS with any applicable modifiers

perhaps also stop any <HEAVY> weapons from firing, just <PISTOL>, <RAPID FIRE> and <ASSAULT> weapons, would also allow all weapons to fire at any point as the enemy closes over 4" away

the game definitely needs a penalty for withdrawing from combat, I like the old "free hit" method, let every model in the unit being withdrawn from make one attack that inflicts one hit automatically - roll to wound, save etc as usual.

elites departing grots are probably ok, withdrawing in good order, grots departing elites will probably suffer more

On the subject of attacking units that flee from combat make consolidation a part of the exchange. Make withdrawing from melee a beginning of movement phase action along with disembarking and the withdrawing player now has considerations about wussing out.

Did I leave enough of a buffer to prevent the attacking unit from consolidating into more units and forcing them to forgo their shooting by wimping out before the assault phase?
Was the attacking unit’s charge effective enough to get them in range of another unit?
Can the attacking unit kill enough to even get consolidation?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:


The choice being charge the lascannon and rely on it missing when it has to hit on a 6 or not charge and get shot next turn by the lascannon at full BS?

That entirely depends on what units are left on the table for screening. If you HAVE to make the choice you go in with the full knowledge that it can go south, which is no different than a lascannon shooting a vehicle with 6 wounds left and hoping for a 6.

I guess you can look at it like this - but as said, its a bit of a false choice. Eat the overwatch or eat a full BS shooting. Really though it doesn't change the fact swingyness isn't very enjoyable. Its just bad luck hitting you in the face with a very high game-state impact..
Its a similar story when you take a load of casualties... and then fail the charge roll anyway, staying stood still.

I don't really get the idea that overwatch is there to stop you multi-charging everything. I guess the effect is that - but really its there as a legacy of a mechanic that has a checkered past going back 25~ years or whatever and had this incarnation for about a decade.

The equivalent of overwatch isn't getting to attack withdrawing enemies on 6. Its "overmovement" - you can move D6 inches forward if targeted by an enemy. Or getting to shoot back yourself on 6s.

I mean Infinity the game sort of has this system. But really you are talking about a fundamental change to 40k which I don't see happening. The closest you might get is that if you fail a charge, you can still move the higher of the 2 D6 forward - or something like that. But this is probably quite marginal.

I like Overwatch - especially since it was annoying as hell that vehicles equipped with Heavy flamers and the like used to just sit there when they were charged.

I def agree there should be a generic "No Escape" rule and that units like Wyches should get bonuses - something else that would have made a Succubus/Lelith more liek the lore was having a aura bonus to this ability

 JNAProductions wrote:
So feth melee, right?

It's already weaker than shooting, but now you want to make it impossible to charge D-Scythe Wraithguard without eating a faceful of S10 hits?

I play melee Tyranids, dude.

I'm not interested in preserving illogical, 'gamey' mechanics solely because they work in my favor. Being able to hide units outside of LOS or outside charge range to avoid overwatch fire shouldn't be the trick that allows melee armies to overcome Overwatch.

I already said I'd like to see Overwatch overhauled to involve some kind of tradeoff, so that it's not the automatic, brainless response that it currently is. That'd make it weaker overall while still allowing flamers to function like they're supposed to.

 catbarf wrote:
I'm not interested in preserving illogical, 'gamey' mechanics solely because they work in my favor. Being able to hide units outside of LOS or outside charge range to avoid overwatch fire shouldn't be the trick that allows melee armies to overcome Overwatch.

"The Lictor moved without a sound as it stalked through the broken ruins of Hive Locina. It's was created for the ambush, ash peppered carapace blending in perfectly with the grey wastes that choked the service roads. It lacked the clicking of citain rubbing together that the adhoc defenders had grown accustomed, flushing out the Tyranid invaders from the claustrophobic cooridores that snaked through massive cargo containers and ancient, bellowing machines. The hunter drew closer to it's prey, it's acute senses allowed it to map the area to a pin point accuracy. A squad of ten guardsmen had taken a position on the second level of a broken down warehouse overlooking a gate they were using as a funnel. It's auto cannon team firing away into the wave of insects that were surging through, Termagants dying in piles under supressive lasgun fire.

It heard 1st Sergeant Leandros shouting orders to his men. The perfect hunter was made to eliminate this one man, who had become a thorn in the hive's side. It had slipped through the overlapping sights of the men's peers, shifted through the tanglewire defenses like a ghost. It couched behind a buttress riddled with prayers to the Emperor, one of many sacred pillars to glorify the Imperium. Now to be used against it's defenders. It could hear the men's breath, little clouds showing they had their backs turned. t was a mere 4 feet away from the team, its powerful legs could easily catapult itself besides the firing line to rip the human apart with the Lictor's rending talons. Along with the men besides him. As din of battle reached a crusendo, It leaped. There would be no warning, and now no escape.

Then, suddenly, Heavy Weapon Specialist Yarvic grabbed the bulk of his weapon autocannon, lifting it with both arms easily where previous he could barely drag it to position with help from his comrade. He spun a complete 180, pointing it in the direction of the ambush predator and fired the heavy weapon from the hip. The first shot went wide, bu the second embedded itself inside the Lictor's torso. Simultaneously, the other guardsmen turned upon the creature, lasguns ablazing, a few scoring perfect hits upon the enemy they did not know was there nano seconds ago. Only the armor of the creature saved it from a humiliating death, but it would be for naught as Private Jenkins fired a frag grenade into it's skull. The localized explosion reduced the lictor's body to pulp while the fragmentation miraculously avoided the braced men, the ruined body flying over their head before crumpling to the floor below them with a wet thud.

Sergeant Leandros gave the dead tyranid a slightly perturbed look, then glanced to the men as they turned back to the front as if nothing happened, then shrugs and begins shouting orders again."

There's a lot of problems with Overwatch, as mentioned before, but if we wanted to talk about how gamey a mechanic is, there's a few things to throw on the pile:
*It's an Out of Sequence Attack. While there is ways to get extra actions, but these generally follow a certain line of progression in order make a flow out of an ordered system. Overwatch is the only real exception out of that. It's the one of two times Reactions exist in the system: Overwatch, and being able to attack in both fight phases. (both of which benefit being charged over charging, especially with fall back) The closest an assault unit has to an out of sequence ability is a charge move, since it's movement that's not in the Movement phase, but there's a trade off since you can't do that *And* advance without buying something extra to make it work.

*The Trigger for the Reaction is based purely on the action of the player, not the models as persons. You can run a conga line in front of the enemy army and they won't react to your movement. It's only when a charge is called does Overwatch happen. So the special weapon team full of meltaguns running at your tank isn't worth spending ammo on but the guy swinging a sword around is? And since the reaction is merely on the charge, you can get hurt even if you failed the charge in the first place, which is just rubbing salt in the wound.

I think there's a problem with charge reactions as a whole, and that generally because there's no "shooting reactions" in kind, which is just part of the overarching gap between Shooting and Melee: Shooting gets a lot of tools to do what they need to do, while Melee get a rock and some sticks and are told "figure it out."

I haven't had much trouble with it. I get the points being made. Does seem silly units can shoot repeatedly. But find in actual gameplay they hardly ever hit. And if they get charged by my assault squad or Furioso dread, they also get the worst of it...

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Spoiler:

 catbarf wrote:
I'm not interested in preserving illogical, 'gamey' mechanics solely because they work in my favor. Being able to hide units outside of LOS or outside charge range to avoid overwatch fire shouldn't be the trick that allows melee armies to overcome Overwatch.

"The Lictor moved without a sound as it stalked through the broken ruins of Hive Locina. It's was created for the ambush, ash peppered carapace blending in perfectly with the grey wastes that choked the service roads. It lacked the clicking of citain rubbing together that the adhoc defenders had grown accustomed, flushing out the Tyranid invaders from the claustrophobic cooridores that snaked through massive cargo containers and ancient, bellowing machines. The hunter drew closer to it's prey, it's acute senses allowed it to map the area to a pin point accuracy. A squad of ten guardsmen had taken a position on the second level of a broken down warehouse overlooking a gate they were using as a funnel. It's auto cannon team firing away into the wave of insects that were surging through, Termagants dying in piles under supressive lasgun fire.

It heard 1st Sergeant Leandros shouting orders to his men. The perfect hunter was made to eliminate this one man, who had become a thorn in the hive's side. It had slipped through the overlapping sights of the men's peers, shifted through the tanglewire defenses like a ghost. It couched behind a buttress riddled with prayers to the Emperor, one of many sacred pillars to glorify the Imperium. Now to be used against it's defenders. It could hear the men's breath, little clouds showing they had their backs turned. t was a mere 4 feet away from the team, its powerful legs could easily catapult itself besides the firing line to rip the human apart with the Lictor's rending talons. Along with the men besides him. As din of battle reached a crusendo, It leaped. There would be no warning, and now no escape.

Then, suddenly, Heavy Weapon Specialist Yarvic grabbed the bulk of his weapon autocannon, lifting it with both arms easily where previous he could barely drag it to position with help from his comrade. He spun a complete 180, pointing it in the direction of the ambush predator and fired the heavy weapon from the hip. The first shot went wide, bu the second embedded itself inside the Lictor's torso. Simultaneously, the other guardsmen turned upon the creature, lasguns ablazing, a few scoring perfect hits upon the enemy they did not know was there nano seconds ago. Only the armor of the creature saved it from a humiliating death, but it would be for naught as Private Jenkins fired a frag grenade into it's skull. The localized explosion reduced the lictor's body to pulp while the fragmentation miraculously avoided the braced men, the ruined body flying over their head before crumpling to the floor below them with a wet thud.

Sergeant Leandros gave the dead tyranid a slightly perturbed look, then glanced to the men as they turned back to the front as if nothing happened, then shrugs and begins shouting orders again."

There's a lot of problems with Overwatch, as mentioned before, but if we wanted to talk about how gamey a mechanic is, there's a few things to throw on the pile:
*It's an Out of Sequence Attack. While there is ways to get extra actions, but these generally follow a certain line of progression in order make a flow out of an ordered system. Overwatch is the only real exception out of that. It's the one of two times Reactions exist in the system: Overwatch, and being able to attack in both fight phases. (both of which benefit being charged over charging, especially with fall back) The closest an assault unit has to an out of sequence ability is a charge move, since it's movement that's not in the Movement phase, but there's a trade off since you can't do that *And* advance without buying something extra to make it work.

*The Trigger for the Reaction is based purely on the action of the player, not the models as persons. You can run a conga line in front of the enemy army and they won't react to your movement. It's only when a charge is called does Overwatch happen. So the special weapon team full of meltaguns running at your tank isn't worth spending ammo on but the guy swinging a sword around is? And since the reaction is merely on the charge, you can get hurt even if you failed the charge in the first place, which is just rubbing salt in the wound.

I think there's a problem with charge reactions as a whole, and that generally because there's no "shooting reactions" in kind, which is just part of the overarching gap between Shooting and Melee: Shooting gets a lot of tools to do what they need to do, while Melee get a rock and some sticks and are told "figure it out."

I agree that overwatch as it is now needs to be fixed, and that there should be a penalty/consequence to falling back.

I disliked the ability to completely wipe out a unit if it failed to fallback or huge sweeping advances where a until could magically advance 12" extra because it won a combat, and hitting on a 6 isn't really worth the dice roll most of the time, so I'm not sure what the answer to that would be. Maybe a roll off between the attacking and falling back player - both make an advance roll (Move plus d6) if the falling back unit wins it can fall back as up to this distance, if the attacking unit scores equal to or higher, the other unit is unable to fall back.

As for overwatch itself, i'd only allow it once per charge phase, and the unit firing overwatch can fire as full BS but can only fire at the charging unit, and only weapon type assault, pistol or grenade.

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Out of all the blunders that GW committed during 6th edition overwatch is probably the biggest since it has had the longest lasting impact in this game, and I wonder why it wasn't removed from the rule set once 8th hit. Now why do I think that overwatch is a horrible rule, simple, it rewards bad gameplay of getting your shooting units into melee. The only way this would be good was if deep strike charging became a too big of an issue, but you could simply remove that instead of nerfing all melee accross the board.

Overwatch is fine. The mechanic is implemented poorly, that's all. It would be much better in an AA system. And no-one was intentionally allowing their units to be charged and hoping for 6's.

Blastaar wrote:

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Out of all the blunders that GW committed during 6th edition overwatch is probably the biggest since it has had the longest lasting impact in this game, and I wonder why it wasn't removed from the rule set once 8th hit. Now why do I think that overwatch is a horrible rule, simple, it rewards bad gameplay of getting your shooting units into melee. The only way this would be good was if deep strike charging became a too big of an issue, but you could simply remove that instead of nerfing all melee accross the board.

Overwatch is fine. The mechanic is implemented poorly, that's all. It would be much better in an AA system. And no-one was intentionally allowing their units to be charged and hoping for 6's.

I'm not sure if if there is a better way to implement it. Lets talk about how Overwatch worked in 1st-2nd edition (This is information I've read from other people, I did not play 1st-2nd personally, feel free to correct me).
In those editions, you could choose to forgo shooting in your shooting phase to instead fire in the opponent's movement. I believe this did come with a -1 penalty. This was important for dealing with some mechanics like grav-tanks ability to make pop-up attacks (Basically jump-shoot-jump), but the problem there was that it allowed you to shoot enemies that were trying to move out of cover or into LoS. Combined with Smoke (Andy Chambers had a nice rant about smoke here) which created games were both sides would sit in one spot, waiting for the other to move out of safety. This resulted in boring games which were won and lost based on who'd get bored faster rather than skill.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

Blastaar wrote:

Alkaline_Hound wrote:
Out of all the blunders that GW committed during 6th edition overwatch is probably the biggest since it has had the longest lasting impact in this game, and I wonder why it wasn't removed from the rule set once 8th hit. Now why do I think that overwatch is a horrible rule, simple, it rewards bad gameplay of getting your shooting units into melee. The only way this would be good was if deep strike charging became a too big of an issue, but you could simply remove that instead of nerfing all melee accross the board.

Overwatch is fine. The mechanic is implemented poorly, that's all. It would be much better in an AA system. And no-one was intentionally allowing their units to be charged and hoping for 6's.

I'm not sure if if there is a better way to implement it. Lets talk about how Overwatch worked in 1st-2nd edition (This is information I've read from other people, I did not play 1st-2nd personally, feel free to correct me).
In those editions, you could choose to forgo shooting in your shooting phase to instead fire in the opponent's movement. I believe this did come with a -1 penalty. This was important for dealing with some mechanics like grav-tanks ability to make pop-up attacks (Basically jump-shoot-jump), but the problem there was that it allowed you to shoot enemies that were trying to move out of cover or into LoS. Combined with Smoke (Andy Chambers had a nice rant about smoke here) which created games were both sides would sit in one spot, waiting for the other to move out of safety. This resulted in boring games which were won and lost based on who'd get bored faster rather than skill.

i find that the MEDGe version works well. Units can fire defensively under certain conditions, including being charged. That unit takes a morale test- if they pass, they fire at full BS, if they fail, they're hitting on sixes. The game also has a morale system that is integral to how the game plays, is AA instead of IGOUGO, and admittedly, is more focused on shooting than melee.