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AP2 wasn't rare. That's why they were bad.

The rules regarding armor saves are still fethed up so a 1+ save is still functionally a 2++. Every time GW has missed a combo that allows a unit to get to a 1+ they've fixed the combo and left the rule alone, so obviously that's how they want it to work.

No, it's an absurd result and is to be ignored. That can't be RAI.

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's an absurd result and is to be ignored. That can't be RAI.

If they keep adjusting the combos that run afoul of it instead of the rule itself then it very clearly can be RAI.

The Newman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
No, it's an absurd result and is to be ignored. That can't be RAI.

If they keep adjusting the combos that run afoul of it instead of the rule itself then it very clearly can be RAI.

I don't think so. They have been taking 2++ out of the game methodically.

I remember when Plasma Cannons were the optimal Terminator Killing Weapon rather than Bolters.


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Martel732 wrote:
No, it's an absurd result and is to be ignored. That can't be RAI.

It is RaI. The FAQ is explicit on how modifiers work.

I find that unlikely.

Just make the the Crux always add 1 to their save. We still have to roll those dice for armour saves even if it's 1+ and it gives the Crux a purpose again. Even at - 4 it'll still have a 5+ armour save.

The net result is the same but they wouldn't have an invuln save anymore which could arguably lower their cost

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just make the the Crux always add 1 to their save. We still have to roll those dice for armour saves even if it's 1+ and it gives the Crux a purpose again. Even at - 4 it'll still have a 5+ armour save.

The net result is the same but they wouldn't have an invuln save anymore which could arguably lower their cost

That's actually not a bad idea. How would the 4++ variants be dealt with though?

Terminators are terrible for 2 main reasons. They are slow and they are expensive. Yes there are a lot of D2 weapons but the real weakness is the same as 7th - massed shooting. Aggressors are far better.

To my mind 'fixing' Terminators isn't a thing that's going to happen because GW is committed to deleting the classic Marine line in favour of making them all Primaris, and as we've learned from AoS and the recent announcements about the possible return of WHFB and square bases in a few years' time GW is a very large boat with a very small rudder. 9e is going to come out next summer, old-Marines are going to become 'Legends'-only, and Terminators won't get any attention of any kind from the studio until someday five years from now someone at the design studio looks back and says "You know, we've sold everyone all these Primaris Marines and told them old-Marines are dead so they go dump or sell their armies, and now sales are stagnating, maybe we need to resurrect some of the old stuff so people feel compelled to go out and buy an all-new army again," and then the old-Marines will be back in all their mixed-weapons glory with squads that can mix-and-match a bunch of special weapons despite the kits only coming with one of each upgrade gun, and rules that are somehow more OP than the Primaris, and people will be grumbling about how somehow the Primaris are newer and shinier but they're getting shown up by the folks they supposedly replaced, and the cycle will begin anew.

(Disclaimer: This post represents griping based on hypotheticals and doesn't constitute a prediction of the future or any kind of insider knowledge.)

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just make the the Crux always add 1 to their save. We still have to roll those dice for armour saves even if it's 1+ and it gives the Crux a purpose again. Even at - 4 it'll still have a 5+ armour save.

The net result is the same but they wouldn't have an invuln save anymore which could arguably lower their cost

That's actually not a bad idea. How would the 4++ variants be dealt with though?

They should just be consolidated into one entry period. There's no reason to have a different entry for each Mk of Termonator armor.

What I have personally always wondered about is why the standard armament for Terminators has always been a measly Storm Bolter. I mean, they're the elite soldiers of an already incredibly elite organization (A Space Marine chapter) , there's at most 100.000 of them in the ENTIRE GALAXY, and all they get is a... Storm Bolter?

So, let's see here. They're super-elite soldiers in superheavy armor and tend to teleport straight onto the frontline. Why don't we give them a Frag Cannon as a standard shooting armament? I know that sometimes they're also used as kind of assassins to snipe enemy commanders but since we have Eliminators for that now Terminators would be the ideal "I teleport straight in front of the heaviest concentration of enemy forces and blow a giant hole in it" unit. I'd say give them a Frag Cannon, +1W and +1T (and maybe no penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons?) to represent they're man-sized Dreadnoughts, price them apporpriately (about 60 points for a Power Fist + Frag Cannon loadout? 55 for Power Sword + Frag Cannon) and poof, Terminators as they SHOULD be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just make the the Crux always add 1 to their save. We still have to roll those dice for armour saves even if it's 1+ and it gives the Crux a purpose again. Even at - 4 it'll still have a 5+ armour save.

The net result is the same but they wouldn't have an invuln save anymore which could arguably lower their cost

That's actually not a bad idea. How would the 4++ variants be dealt with though?

They should just be consolidated into one entry period. There's no reason to have a different entry for each Mk of Termonator armor.

I suppose keeping the same idea in mind I'd say add 2 to The save, but then how about the cataphract captain? Add 2 to the armour save while he already has a 3++? You'd need - 3 just to bump him to his invuln which I guess having only a move of 4 is the trade off

Its a bit of a conundrum really and this is probably one of the points where I need to agree with Slayer. But at the same time most of these things are established. It's kinda like Breachers and strikes for Tau, not much difference other than wargear, but you could say that about most things in 40k.....

Pandabeer wrote:
What I have personally always wondered about is why the standard armament for Terminators has always been a measly Storm Bolter. I mean, they're the elite soldiers of an already incredibly elite organization (A Space Marine chapter) , there's at most 100.000 of them in the ENTIRE GALAXY, and all they get is a... Storm Bolter?

So, let's see here. They're super-elite soldiers in superheavy armor and tend to teleport straight onto the frontline. Why don't we give them a Frag Cannon as a standard shooting armament? I know that sometimes they're also used as kind of assassins to snipe enemy commanders but since we have Eliminators for that now Terminators would be the ideal "I teleport straight in front of the heaviest concentration of enemy forces and blow a giant hole in it" unit. I'd say give them a Frag Cannon, +1W and +1T (and maybe no penalty for moving and firing heavy weapons?) to represent they're man-sized Dreadnoughts, price them apporpriately (about 60 points for a Power Fist + Frag Cannon loadout? 55 for Power Sword + Frag Cannon) and poof, Terminators as they SHOULD be.

A storm bolter is not supposed to be measly, They are supposed to be quite effective solder class weapons, Classed up there with other specialist weapons in the game. Its just very very lopsided at this point.
That they never really fix as a whole and kinda just shift around each edition.
And i do not think that will change until the whole design of 40k is really looked at. I feel like Terminators could probably be pushed up to 4 or 5 wounds base. If they where shifting other things around in the game, I feel there is already enough firepower in the game. Few other things in the game could go up as well.
But i think they need to overhall how they work out getting to a wound in the system, rather than just adding on stats to some units endlessly.

 fraser1191 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
Just make the the Crux always add 1 to their save. We still have to roll those dice for armour saves even if it's 1+ and it gives the Crux a purpose again. Even at - 4 it'll still have a 5+ armour save.

The net result is the same but they wouldn't have an invuln save anymore which could arguably lower their cost

That's actually not a bad idea. How would the 4++ variants be dealt with though?

They should just be consolidated into one entry period. There's no reason to have a different entry for each Mk of Termonator armor.

I suppose keeping the same idea in mind I'd say add 2 to The save, but then how about the cataphract captain? Add 2 to the armour save while he already has a 3++? You'd need - 3 just to bump him to his invuln which I guess having only a move of 4 is the trade off

Its a bit of a conundrum really and this is probably one of the points where I need to agree with Slayer. But at the same time most of these things are established. It's kinda like Breachers and strikes for Tau, not much difference other than wargear, but you could say that about most things in 40k.....

Well Breachers and Fire Warriors are in the same exact troop slot with no differences. Just do it like Intercessors do their weapons, where it's either/or for a squad. Bam, done.

It's stupid simple but GW is gonna GW.

IMO, all Termies need to be a good unit (not great, just good enough) if for the Crux Terminatus to also have this ability in addition to the 5++: Attacks against this model are -1 Damage to a minimum of 1.
That would make D:2 weapons far less effective against them without the need to give them 3W (which I wish was the case, but GW is very adamant that only Primaris models are getting extra wounds this edition)

That would fix their durability issued, IMO and all you'd need to fix their damage out put is a rule to ignore -1 to hit penalties from moving with Heavy Weapons or Melee weapons. (Again, the ideal solution would be to give them WS/BS2+, but GW seems very uninterested in datasheet revisions on a blanket basis). Shock Assault and Bolter Discipline are ok, but they need a bit more of a nudge.

-

The thing that GW seems to be confusing with regard to Terminators is whether they're supposed to be a hardcore shock-troop squad fielded in numbers that goes through first but isn't fundamentally that much bigger than the basic troops, or whether they're a 'tier above' where things like Custodians, Ogryn, and Aggressors (the T5/3W things) live.

If you run with the assumption that as Terminators were designed as a successor to Breachers (the 30k riot-shield troopers) and should be big squads running into the point first they could almost keep their current statline and rules if you drop them to ~25-30pts/model (with equipment). If you run with the assumption that they're supposed to be 'bigger' they might need T5/3W to keep up with all the other stuff that's supposed to be 'bigger' we keep comparing them to.

 Galef wrote:

That would make D:2 weapons far less effective against them without the need to give them 3W (which I wish was the case, but GW is very adamant that only Primaris models are getting extra wounds this edition)

-

Shadowspear bumped Oblits to 4 wounds, didn't it? I also don't see why Termies shouldn't all just be given a 3++. Loyalists get it with a storm shield if they want it, Necron Wraiths have a 3++. That way, Termies would be defined by their incredible durability and you wouldn't really need to buff their damage output. Their role would be to simply not die, no matter what. Like a steadfast unit to rally around, sort of thing. Chaos Termies would certainly say thank you

 Galef wrote:
IMO, all Termies need to be a good unit (not great, just good enough) if for the Crux Terminatus to also have this ability in addition to the 5++: Attacks against this model are -1 Damage to a minimum of 1.
That would make D:2 weapons far less effective against them without the need to give them 3W (which I wish was the case, but GW is very adamant that only Primaris models are getting extra wounds this edition)

That would fix their durability issued, IMO and all you'd need to fix their damage out put is a rule to ignore -1 to hit penalties from moving with Heavy Weapons or Melee weapons. (Again, the ideal solution would be to give them WS/BS2+, but GW seems very uninterested in datasheet revisions on a blanket basis). Shock Assault and Bolter Discipline are ok, but they need a bit more of a nudge.

-

I prefer to be more restrictive. Treat D:2 as D:1 and only D:2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

Martel732 wrote:
I prefer to be more restrictive. Treat D:2 as D:1 and only D:2. 3 damage is still 3 damage.

That was my original idea as well. Don't remember why I changed it.

-

D:2 is the real culprit. Autocannon, overcharge plasma etc. IF some poor sop rolls 3 on their D3, they should keep it

Martel732 wrote:
D:2 is the real culprit. Autocannon, overcharge plasma etc. IF some poor sop rolls 3 on their D3, they should keep it

Autocannons really aren't killing that much at a higher rate though, and the only culprit is Imperial Plasma, as Tau Plasma and Starcannons wound less and do less damage on average.

Dissie Soam can help be solved with the consolidated profile just having straight up 4++, but I don't like greater invul saves in the game.

Autocannons remove more points of terminators than almost anything else. So yeah, d2 -1 or better is the problem.

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons remove more points of terminators than almost anything else. So yeah, d2 -1 or better is the problem.

Have you looked at the math compared to last edition or no? It's really not that big a difference.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The issue with Terminators has more to do with the vast increase in special/heavy firepower starting in 5th Edition. Squads that can loadout with ALL high-AP weapons, and/or just much bigger units with even huger guns.

Insufficient terrain rules also hurt them, as well as the grinding down of their heavy weapons/use of them. Back in the day they had a base 1+ to hit (a bonus of 2 over normal marines), and ignored the penalty for heavy weapons. In effect this has made their damage output less, while anti-Terminator weapons are given out like candy.

What increase? -3 to -6 was everywhere in 2nd ed. Once the starcannon was introduced in 3rd, it was all over for them in that edition, too. Also, the stormbolter was awful in 2nd. So I really don't agree with any part of this.

A -3 Save in 2nd still gave Terminators a 6+ on 2D6, which is still roughly a 3+ on a D6. A little better than a 3+ actually, 2.7 ish.

With the modifiers to-hit in 2nd, having a base of 1+ to-hit was pretty good. Storm Bolters with a 1+ are better than Shuriken Catapults at a 4+ (Eldar Guardians), especially in an edition that pushes a 4+ to a 6+ with Hard Cover.

Starcannon Aside, AP2 was pretty rare in 3rd and 4th Ed, and the Starcannon got nerfed in 4th ed. anyways. Plasma Cannons weren't even available to most SM units at the beginning of 3rd, iirc, and only started being given out later, starting with the Dark Angels. In 5th Ed we saw the inflation of Specials, with an obvious case being the creation of Sternguard to replace the old Veterans Squads. Vet Squads were originally just Tactical Squads with higher Leadership and Attacks, Sternguard could all of a sudden all be given Combi-weapons. (Command Squads iirc, too)

How about just stating that Terminator doesn't suffer debuffs against AP weapons? So, their 2+ save applies across the board unless the weapons AP is 3 or higher their armour save value. So AP3 still renders their armour useless (what used to be AP2 weapons, like Las cannons) but nothing short of the absolute most brutal weapons do, and even then still get their 5+ Crux Terminatus invulnerable save.

It would mean in the example I gave, the Necrons would four Immortals against a Terminator but it would retain its 2+ armour save and multiple wounds (I'd still make a case to increase this to 3). At least then the slow, cumbersome Terminator MIGHT make it into close combat where it'll junk the Necrons. But as it is now, there is no real chance the Terminator can win unless it has STELLAR luck with rolls.

I'm having a little sortie against a Necron force this weekend, and he is bringing a squad of Immortals opposite the Knight Terminators I field. I am thinking the sole hope I have is Deep Strike and get into combat with them, or at least close enough to be able to rapid fire storm bolters. See I'm thinking of fielding a Brother Captain, a pair of Strike Squads, Terminators, Interceptors and Purgation Squad.

It's gonna be first 40K Eighth Edition for either of us so I expect it to be reasonable. I think if I can get into close combat I'm sorted because the Terminators will mince his Warriors and Immortals, as will generic Strike Squads thanks to those Nemesis weapons. Its being shot at I'm concerned about. All of his guns have an AP value, so the best save I'm looking at is a 4+ for Marines, 3+ for Terminators and most of the ranged weapons Knights field have no AP value. Granted Storm Bolters will put down a fair bit of fire at close range.

So I'll see how the Terminators fare.

That's basically the old AP system lol.


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Autocannons remove more points of terminators than almost anything else. So yeah, d2 -1 or better is the problem.

Have you looked at the math compared to last edition or no? It's really not that big a difference.

I don't care about last edition. They weren't good then, either. There needs to be a big difference. I'm looking at what rips them apart THIS edition.


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 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
The issue with Terminators has more to do with the vast increase in special/heavy firepower starting in 5th Edition. Squads that can loadout with ALL high-AP weapons, and/or just much bigger units with even huger guns.

Insufficient terrain rules also hurt them, as well as the grinding down of their heavy weapons/use of them. Back in the day they had a base 1+ to hit (a bonus of 2 over normal marines), and ignored the penalty for heavy weapons. In effect this has made their damage output less, while anti-Terminator weapons are given out like candy.

What increase? -3 to -6 was everywhere in 2nd ed. Once the starcannon was introduced in 3rd, it was all over for them in that edition, too. Also, the stormbolter was awful in 2nd. So I really don't agree with any part of this.

A -3 Save in 2nd still gave Terminators a 6+ on 2D6, which is still roughly a 3+ on a D6. A little better than a 3+ actually, 2.7 ish.

With the modifiers to-hit in 2nd, having a base of 1+ to-hit was pretty good. Storm Bolters with a 1+ are better than Shuriken Catapults at a 4+ (Eldar Guardians), especially in an edition that pushes a 4+ to a 6+ with Hard Cover.

Starcannon Aside, AP2 was pretty rare in 3rd and 4th Ed, and the Starcannon got nerfed in 4th ed. anyways. Plasma Cannons weren't even available to most SM units at the beginning of 3rd, iirc, and only started being given out later, starting with the Dark Angels. In 5th Ed we saw the inflation of Specials, with an obvious case being the creation of Sternguard to replace the old Veterans Squads. Vet Squads were originally just Tactical Squads with higher Leadership and Attacks, Sternguard could all of a sudden all be given Combi-weapons. (Command Squads iirc, too)

Except terminators cost a fortune and eldar could spam the gak out of -3. How many 6+ can you make? Not enough. Terminators didn't work primarily because of their cost and the cost of their screens. As I said, marines were losing their entire army by turn 2 consistently in my group. If pulsa rokkit spam, sometimes the marines didn't get to do much of anything other than shoot a few orks.

Last eddition there was something called a riptides that destroyed entire units of terms in 1 shot. A lot of times on your own turn. Also these things called monsters that all got ap2 just for being monsters. Terms are actually a lot better this eddition there are just much better units taking their place.

Martel732 wrote:

Except terminators cost a fortune and eldar could spam the gak out of -3. How many 6+ can you make? Not enough. Terminators didn't work primarily because of their cost and the cost of their screens. As I said, marines were losing their entire army by turn 2 consistently in my group. If pulsa rokkit spam, sometimes the marines didn't get to do much of anything other than shoot a few orks.

In your group.