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The only one I’ve got is Faith & Fury mostly because it has rules for both of my armies in them (Black Templar’s and Word Bearers). If it was just WB in them I’d have given it a miss. Good rules in it but the fluff is threadbare and doesn’t deliver much, there’s no way I’m buying every book. Still at least I don’t have to use Print-outs for my Templar’s statlines now!

 vipoid wrote:
Phoenix Rising successfully killed my interest in 40k.

Yup, PA killed my interest as well.

 oni wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Phoenix Rising successfully killed my interest in 40k.

Yup, PA killed my interest as well.

But.. you're here... in a 40k subforum... sooooo...

 vipoid wrote:

The Newman wrote:
Sometimes I feel like I'm not reading the same books as the rest of you. I really liked the Black Templar rules in F&F, I wish the rest of the Marine chapters had been handled in similar fashion instead of the over-the-top Codex Suppliments.

Perhaps where you're tripping up is that not everyone plays Marines.

I believe you 100% that the Black Templar rules in F&F are outstanding. However, I don't play Black Templars, I play Dark Eldar. And the Dark Eldar rules in Phoenix Rising are utter pigswill.

Context is a thing that matters.

When I started typing that up the conversation was mostly about F&F, with several people in a row saying they were disappointed with that particular book and what CSM got out of it. I disagree with that particular assessment within the context of building a Chaos Soup list, that was all.

Since you brought it up I will say this though: if the Codex 2.0 Founding Chapters had got rules roughly on par with what the CMS Legions got in F&F instead of the new character upgrades and instead of tbe Codex Suppliments, you'd probably still think the PR rules were rubbish but you also probably wouldn't care very much.

Well yeah... because he doesn’t play marines...he plays dark Eldar... he just told us that.

I'm interested in more rules and mostly models for my armies (DA, Tyranids, Tau, IG, GSC, Admech, Eldar), but the PA books don't interest me, so I haven't bought a lick of 'em.

Or CA 2019, for that matter.

If a Guard-focused book comes out and it's actually got some decent content in it rather than "Space Marines + Friends/Enemies" I might grab one.

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 oni wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Phoenix Rising successfully killed my interest in 40k.

Yup, PA killed my interest as well.

But.. you're here... in a 40k subforum... sooooo...

I’m not quitting, just stepping away from playing until GW gets their gak together (i.e. stops fragmenting game rules across 100+ publications). Until then I’ll be playing FFG’s Legend of the Five Rings LCG.

macluvin wrote:
Well yeah... because he doesn’t play marines...he plays dark Eldar... he just told us that.

He cut out the second half of my post that made it obvious that I was only talking about Faith and Fury and disagreeing with the people criticizing the CSM content of that book, and pointing out that there were several other posts about Phoenix Rising while I was typing that made the context I was working from less obvious.

He responded as though I'd said I thought PR was a good book, I felt obliged to make it clear that I'd made no such claim.

 oni wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:

 oni wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Phoenix Rising successfully killed my interest in 40k.

Yup, PA killed my interest as well.

But.. you're here... in a 40k subforum... sooooo...

I’m not quitting, just stepping away from playing until GW gets their gak together (i.e. stops fragmenting game rules across 100+ publications). Until then I’ll be playing FFG’s Legend of the Five Rings LCG.

In the meanwhile, the UN stops trying to be an autocracy, Cochran figures out how to warp space, and Jesus, Mohammed, and Zion return to Earth, with Shiva coming to give them a pat on the back. Dahak then awakes inside the moon to prepare us against the fight against the Gbaba. I finally get my letter to Ilvermorney, build my lightsaber, and take off in my gravitic starship to travel to Discworld to have a deep talk with Death.

^^^ Props for throwing in the Safehold reference. I really hope he doesn't wait too long to resolve the cliffhanger he left the last book hanging on.

The Newman wrote:
^^^ Props for throwing in the Safehold reference. I really hope he doesn't wait too long to resolve the cliffhanger he left the last book hanging on.

I'm going through the series again, in the middle of Like a Mighty Army right now. Haven't gotten book 10, yet, but I've heard people being disappointed with it. What I think was interesting in some of the reviews is that they thought book 9 had a complete closure, meanwhile it just was finishing one front to get ready to expand on the other.

I did read his little short story bit about, "How the Safehold Series won't end" and I guess it sparked that little bit of the response.

If he's anything, he's consistent about having more than one big epic story project going on at a time. I don't think I'd have given any credence at all to the notion that he'd be able to stop after At Sign of Triumph.

Edit: "I wonder if it's fanfiction when the author does it." My G-d he's one of us.

The Newman wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Well yeah... because he doesn’t play marines...he plays dark Eldar... he just told us that.

He cut out the second half of my post that made it obvious that I was only talking about Faith and Fury and disagreeing with the people criticizing the CSM content of that book, and pointing out that there were several other posts about Phoenix Rising while I was typing that made the context I was working from less obvious.

He responded as though I'd said I thought PR was a good book, I felt obliged to make it clear that I'd made no such claim.

Let me remind you of your first sentence:

The Newman wrote:
Sometimes I feel like I'm not reading the same books as the rest of you.

(Emphasis mine)

If you were just talking about Faith and Fury, why did you say books (plural)?

Moreover, nothing you said after that detracted from my point. Yes, Marines got good stuff in PA. I've never denied that. Indeed, more than once I've referred to the PA books as 'Marine Supplements disguised as campaign books'.

However, your post completely skipped over the small detail that not everyone plays Marines. Hence, "Look, the faction that has already had almost constant releases and piles of fantastic new rules has just been given even more great new rules!" is not going to evoke much enthusiasm from those of us who don't play Marines and whose own factions have been left to rot.

I will buy the PA book for Imperial Guard as soon as it happens, and if there's one for Sisters I will buy that one as well.

For Space Wolves, Custodes, and Grey Knights, that's a big maybe and solely determined by how much I want to use the new rules.

 vipoid wrote:

The Newman wrote:

macluvin wrote:
Well yeah... because he doesn’t play marines...he plays dark Eldar... he just told us that.

He cut out the second half of my post that made it obvious that I was only talking about Faith and Fury and disagreeing with the people criticizing the CSM content of that book, and pointing out that there were several other posts about Phoenix Rising while I was typing that made the context I was working from less obvious.

He responded as though I'd said I thought PR was a good book, I felt obliged to make it clear that I'd made no such claim.

Let me remind you of your first sentence:

The Newman wrote:
Sometimes I feel like I'm not reading the same books as the rest of you.

(Emphasis mine)

If you were just talking about Faith and Fury, why did you say books (plural)?

Are you really going to get pedantic about pluralization? "Books" therefore I must disagree with you about PR? Ok, if you really want to go there; "somtimes", implying several occasions spread over time, ergo quite possibly not PR, especially since (as I explained) the focus of the thread as I understood it at the time of posting was F&F in general and CSM in particular.

 vipoid wrote:
Moreover, nothing you said after that detracted from my point. Yes, Marines got good stuff in PA. I've never denied that. Indeed, more than once I've referred to the PA books as 'Marine Supplements disguised as campaign books'.

However, your post completely skipped over the small detail that not everyone plays Marines. Hence, "Look, the faction that has already had almost constant releases and piles of fantastic new rules has just been given even more great new rules!" is not going to evoke much enthusiasm from those of us who don't play Marines and whose own factions have been left to rot.

Since the main conclusion I drew was that I believe there's reason to be optimistic about what my other two non-marine factions might get on the basis of F&F having interesting rules for CSM (who really needed it considering what their 2.0 codex turned out to be) and what I read as pretty reasonable rules for Black Templars (as opposed to the obviously broken crud in the Marine Codex Supplements), I'm quite confused as to how you could read my post as cheerleading for the Loyalist content.

The Newman wrote:

Are you really going to get pedantic about pluralization?

Well it's a slippery slope if I don't.

Should I also assume that you're not actually using the English Language but a language of your own design that just happens to bear superficial resemblance to such?

The Newman wrote:
"Books" therefore I must disagree with you about PR?

No, "books" therefore you clearly weren't talking about only one of the PA books as you claimed during your desperate attempt at backtracking..

The Newman wrote:
Ok, if you really want to go there; "somtimes", implying several occasions spread over time, ergo quite possibly not PR

That's true. However, when you post it in a thread dedicated to the discussion of a specific series of books, then the context strongly implies that you are talking about those specific books.

The Newman wrote:
especially since (as I explained) the focus of the thread as I understood it at the time of posting was F&F in general and CSM in particular.

If you misunderstood the thread and thought it was specifically dedicated to F&F (in spite of the title), then why not just admit that at the beginning rather than accusing me of misrepresenting you?

The Newman wrote:

Since the main conclusion I drew was that I believe there's reason to be optimistic about what my other two non-marine factions might get on the basis of F&F having interesting rules for CSM (who really needed it considering what their 2.0 codex turned out to be) and what I read as pretty reasonable rules for Black Templars (as opposed to the obviously broken crud in the Marine Codex Supplements), I'm quite confused as to how you could read my post as cheerleading for the Loyalist content.

I feel I could spend the rest of my life having this conversation.


Once again, your opening line was:

The Newman wrote:
Sometimes I feel like I'm not reading the same books as the rest of you.

You then went on to say how great the Marine stuff in F&F is. And, combined with the above statement, the impression I got was that you were puzzled about how so many others could dislike the PA books.

The point I was trying to get across was that not every faction has received the same level or quality of content as Marines. I was not begrudging your optimism for future PA releases. Rather, I was trying to explain that some factions have already had their PA releases, which turned out to be utter garbage. Hence, some of us have no reason to like the PA books and no reason to be optimistic about future ones.

Haven't bought into 40K itself yet, let alone the PA series.

Phoenix Rising had my interest for a bit, but the expensive price tag of Blood of the Phoenix killed it. The content was right for the price, but not when all you want is the Banshee and Incubi models - and only five of each are included.

Somehow, I think its a missed opportunity they didn't have Kill Team tie-ins for PA. A Banshees/Guardians vs Incubi/Kabalites set would have been grand. Terminators vs Tyranids would have been another interesting set...

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

The Newman wrote:

Are you really going to get pedantic about pluralization?

Well it's a slippery slope if I don't.

Should I also assume that you're not actually using the English Language but a language of your own design that just happens to bear superficial resemblance to such?

The Newman wrote:
"Books" therefore I must disagree with you about PR?

No, "books" therefore you clearly weren't talking about only one of the PA books as you claimed during your desperate attempt at backtracking..

The Newman wrote:
Ok, if you really want to go there; "somtimes", implying several occasions spread over time, ergo quite possibly not PR

That's true. However, when you post it in a thread dedicated to the discussion of a specific series of books, then the context strongly implies that you are talking about those specific books.

The Newman wrote:
especially since (as I explained) the focus of the thread as I understood it at the time of posting was F&F in general and CSM in particular.

If you misunderstood the thread and thought it was specifically dedicated to F&F (in spite of the title), then why not just admit that at the beginning rather than accusing me of misrepresenting you?

The Newman wrote:

Since the main conclusion I drew was that I believe there's reason to be optimistic about what my other two non-marine factions might get on the basis of F&F having interesting rules for CSM (who really needed it considering what their 2.0 codex turned out to be) and what I read as pretty reasonable rules for Black Templars (as opposed to the obviously broken crud in the Marine Codex Supplements), I'm quite confused as to how you could read my post as cheerleading for the Loyalist content.

I feel I could spend the rest of my life having this conversation.


Once again, your opening line was:

The Newman wrote:
Sometimes I feel like I'm not reading the same books as the rest of you.

You then went on to say how great the Marine stuff in F&F is. And, combined with the above statement, the impression I got was that you were puzzled about how so many others could dislike the PA books.

The point I was trying to get across was that not every faction has received the same level or quality of content as Marines. I was not begrudging your optimism for future PA releases. Rather, I was trying to explain that some factions have already had their PA releases, which turned out to be utter garbage. Hence, some of us have no reason to like the PA books and no reason to be optimistic about future ones.

I'm not going to go through this and break out the quotes to respond to things individually because I'm on a phone and it's a pain in the $#%&, the tl:dnr version is this:

You have the right to your opinion. Deliberately nit-picking how other people phrase their justifications for having a different opinion doesn't make your opinion any more valid.

Also, 'slippery slope' doesn't mean what you seem to think it means.

Now, unrelated to the argument over what words and phrases mean and who is deliberately misunderstanding who, you'll no doubt note that I still haven't said anything to contradict the point you were trying to make. I see no reason to do so. PA and the Marine codex were clearly designed by people who weren't comparing notes. I don't believe that Marine Codex 2.0 with F&F-CSM-level rules instead of the Codex Suppliments would have put Marines at the top of the meta. Eldar and DE got rules to make some of their less popular units a little more attractive, and for an army that already was at the top of the meta that would have been mostly ok if that was how GW had handled things. Being unhappy that PR didn't put DE at Marine-pocalypse power levels is a little silly because nothing should be at those power levels. I said as much in my first post, and I said it again in my second, but within the context of the game we have it's a perfectly understandable position.

So far nothing has caught my attention for the factions I play, except the Dark Eldar one catching my attention in a very negative way with its rubbish Drazhar sculpt.

If plastic Shadowsun really does emerge with the Tau one I might buy her. Though if she's in a box á-la the Blood of the Phoenix one, it better be alongside Dark Angels and not Grey Knights. And it better have Stealth suits/ Ghostkeels and not more Fire Warriors and Crisis Suits baloney. Ghostkeels have not featured in a proper box set since they came out, which was gone the very same week it was up.

Seeing no book yet covers any faction i play easy to not buy. Once book that has rules comes out it depends are rules actually useful. If they are bad enough i don't use them anyway save the money

I think its been a failure.
People hoped other factions would get the Marines 2.0 treatment. Expanded design space (and buffs). Instead Marines have got more stuff and the rest have gained little but a few sidegrades. Maybe its petty - but to be on arguably the 4th Chaos book and still have the old legion traits feels like bad design.

Would I feel different if Marines 2.0+supplements didnt exist? Yeah, but they do.

The first Eldar book is almost entirely pointless beyond an unnecessary buff to Crimson Hunters. Its not clear to me Tyranids became more interesting but I've not looked closely.

I am surprised at the apparent lack of interest in the PA supplements considering the amount of hype. Typically these polls do not have a 50% "not interested" response from the faithful here on Dakka. I wonder if the rolling out of so much product by GW has finally saturated the Kool-Aid to the point where there is a mound of sugar gathering on the bottom of the glass.

It for sure is just more rules bloat.

We really need a soft reset at this point.

 Tokhuah wrote:
I am surprised at the apparent lack of interest in the PA supplements considering the amount of hype. Typically these polls do not have a 50% "not interested" response from the faithful here on Dakka. I wonder if the rolling out of so much product by GW has finally saturated the Kool-Aid to the point where there is a mound of sugar gathering on the bottom of the glass.

Psychic Awakening has no real purpose. GW should have just revised the codex's. Instead PA is an obvious gimmick to sell you more books.

Tyel wrote:
I think its been a failure.
People hoped other factions would get the Marines 2.0 treatment. Expanded design space (and buffs).

Whose fault is it that people got their hopes up?

It was made pretty clear early on that "This is not you getting a new codex". But people would rather listen to the rumormongers that kept spreading garbage about these huge sweeping changes with no context

Instead Marines have got more stuff and the rest have gained little but a few sidegrades.

NOPE. Marines got stuff that should have been in the Codex certainly, but it was limited to Faith and Fury. You don't get to lump Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves in with C: Marines.

Maybe its petty - but to be on arguably the 4th Chaos book and still have the old legion traits feels like bad design.

How in the world are you getting "the 4th Chaos book"? There's been two iterations of the Chaos Marines book, and the latter version is just Chaos Marines with the Vigilus datasheets tacked in. There's a reason why it has a "II" on the cover while the vanilla Marines book didn't.

Would I feel different if Marines 2.0+supplements didnt exist? Yeah, but they do.

Yeah and they're clearly a different design space than literally anyone else. Anyone who paid an ounce of attention should have understood that this is not unlike what they did with Stormcast Eternals in AoS:
When they added the Vanguard Chamber, they took the opportunity to publish a new book while also giving them a new 'style' of traits than anyone before...and then that book lasted maybe half a year until a new edition dropped.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
I am surprised at the apparent lack of interest in the PA supplements considering the amount of hype. Typically these polls do not have a 50% "not interested" response from the faithful here on Dakka. I wonder if the rolling out of so much product by GW has finally saturated the Kool-Aid to the point where there is a mound of sugar gathering on the bottom of the glass.

Psychic Awakening has no real purpose. GW should have just revised the codex's. Instead PA is an obvious gimmick to sell you more books.

To you, everything is apparently "an obvious gimmick to sell you more books" and people need to carry a library of books for one game.

Psychic Awakening doesn't preclude them revising the codices. This nonsense needs to stop.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 oni wrote:

 Tokhuah wrote:
I am surprised at the apparent lack of interest in the PA supplements considering the amount of hype. Typically these polls do not have a 50% "not interested" response from the faithful here on Dakka. I wonder if the rolling out of so much product by GW has finally saturated the Kool-Aid to the point where there is a mound of sugar gathering on the bottom of the glass.

Psychic Awakening has no real purpose. GW should have just revised the codex's. Instead PA is an obvious gimmick to sell you more books.

To you, everything is apparently "an obvious gimmick to sell you more books" and people need to carry a library of books for one game.

Psychic Awakening doesn't preclude them revising the codices. This nonsense needs to stop.

Seems like you're misunderstanding or are perhaps in denial.

GW can (and definitely will, eventually) revise the codex's; and when they get to that point we'll be repurchasing all of the rules that were printed in PA. This is the crux of the problem.

Once updated codex's arrive, there will be no reason to have or use the PA books. This is why Psychic Awakening has no real purpose.

GW could have simply started rolling out updated codex's, but instead they decided to print additional supplemental books with just enough to make them required for game play. This is why PA is a gimmick.

No, I'm understanding completely. Anytime any kind of extraneous material(White Dwarf extra rules, CA, Vigilus, etc) is published, you've constantly talked about it as though it was absolutely 100% required. You're not the only person, but it's exceedingly tiresome to constantly see it.

And frankly, they've never made it sound like Psychic Awakening was "required" for anyone. It's, as usual, the fanbase that has done that. The same thing was constantly harped about with regards to the Marine Supplements and people "needing to own them all".
Chapter Approved has an argument to be made, since it updates point values.
The WD stuff hasn't ever really been super impressive.


But then there's wonderful threads like this. "It's not popular!", yadda yadda yadda. We're maybe a quarter of the way through Psychic Awakening and it's still being better handled than Gathering Storm, Vigilus, or Realmgate Wars were. The books aren't stupid big, there's no "locking" of characters behind books, no "locking" of things like the Specialist Detachments, etc.

 Tokhuah wrote:
I am surprised at the apparent lack of interest in the PA supplements considering the amount of hype. Typically these polls do not have a 50% "not interested" response from the faithful here on Dakka. I wonder if the rolling out of so much product by GW has finally saturated the Kool-Aid to the point where there is a mound of sugar gathering on the bottom of the glass.

I don't think there is much hype. There are a couple articles once a month on WarCom, but they post multiple articles most days every week, so its actually a tiny amount of their spam.

Other than that, if you don't play (sub)factions A, B or C, you aren't getting anything at all out any particular book, and even if you do, you're likely getting... at most a single model, and more likely no models at all.
There's just enough rules changes to stir up the meta a tiny bit, but not enough to really justify a $40 book.

After 2.5 years of faction updates, what I personally really want is for things to settle down, not add more lists of traits/strats/relics to the lists that were just updated.

The PA books are very much a mixed bag to me. I like the rules they're adding to my factions (Nids and Marines so far), but are they worth the price tag? Not really. GW needs to find another way to spread these rules. Maybe, finally, go for a digital solution that's usable outside of Apples ecosystem?