Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This whole book strikes me as a massive step backwards for the game.

We're going to spend the next year and a half retreading old ground as they do another round for the same 6 houses. Sure, there will be new things bolted onto the gangs to make them far more diverse than their original design, but we're still just dealing with the 6 houses.

Where are the Outlanders? Where are the Ash Wastes gangs? Where are the other settings (secundus, that big space station, etc.) that they've teased? Where are any of the missing hangers ons/pets from the first go round?

They're treading water, and it doesn't make sense.

When you look at it, this is the third time they've released rules for making a Goliath gang. They're not just going over the same ground. They're going over the same ground for a second time.

Again, this isn't moving forward. It is, at best, moving sideways. They're reprinting things that are already in other books. It's great that they're expanding on the lore and whatnot, and making the gangs more unique, but as I said, where's all the other stuff they talked about?

They've spent time in multiple seminars talking about the rich settings of Necromunda and instead we're getting House Goliath 3.0 (or 4.0 if you want to stretch it to include the original rule book in the base Underhive boxed game).

Well, this brought the Rogue Ogryn Gang.

Ash Wasters could be a matching entry for House Orlock? Assuming of course each book will be roughly equivalent in terms of offered content. Which seems likely, but is definitely not guaranteed.

I do agree with you, much as I really like this entry. Just wish they’d not do them quartlerly, and not just because I play Delaque, so will have to wait aaaaaaaages for mine!

Cawdor book featuring redemptionists? One can dream...

I’d say that’s certainly possible? Seems to be a decent match overall in terms of common ground.

As you say, Ash Waste Nomads are a good match for Orlocks. Question is, what about the other Houses. What would their match ups be? Van Saar and Spyrers? What about Escher and Delaque? I can't picture any obvious analogues or alliances off the top of me head.

Spyrers could work with Van Saar, as both are 'techy', compared to Goliath and Ogryns being 'beefy'.

Delaque? Possibly Chaos Cult - both shadowy and sneaky. The former by choice, the latter by necessity? Could also be something entirely new (as the Ogryn Gang is).

Escher? Honestly don't know. Could be Venator Gangs, to properly codify them?

All just spitballing peeps!

Well we've had the Chaos Cult already in the Book of Ruin.

What we got left? Ratskins, Scavvies, Pit Slaves and Brat Gangs?

They don't really fit the aesthetic of what's left, but the Cawdor book could have a twist and actually do Scavvies and not redemptionists. Both are pretty much "Dregs".

For Escher and Delaque, I'd say we're looking at something new that has only ever been background referenced if at all.

Suppose you could have some sort of tenuous link between Brats and Escher (Flamboyant and the enjoyment of various Chems) but that's very loose.

So what old-school gangs are we missing at this point? -

Ratskins
Redemptionists
Pit Slaves
Scavvies
Spyrers

(Did Ash Waste Nomads get a release in the end?)

Ash Waste Nomads did, but not until they'd started the Citadel Journal and other spin off type mags.

So they existed, but were, if memory serves, fairly bare bones. I do remember the had models for a fairly brief period.

There were also really odd ones - like Wyrd Gangs (explosive, most of the time. Not in a helpful way) Juve Gangs (got stomped or got stupid hard, stupid quick). There may have been others.

Ooooooooh. Could we see Brat Gangs in the Escher book? I'd love that, me!

Pit slaves are an odd one. I reckon we'll see Pit Slaves in a combined Pit Slaves / Tech / Heretek gang. Otherwise, Pit Slaves will be just another Corpse Grinder, Goliath close combat monster analogue.

A gang of these would look brutal though:




Brat Gangers are mentioned in the current edition as indulging in jetbike (!) races. Could be they may be keeping Brats and Ash Waste for if (when?) they do a Mad Max style vehicle expansion across the Ash Waste expanse.

Scavvies are a tricky one, maybe a "Book of Mutants" expansion where they deal with scavvies but also gangers with mutations. Chuck in plague zombies (which will be popular when they do them) along with Karloth.

Ratskins, who knows as they're pretty unique.

If we do get Pit Slaves proper, I hope we see something akin to the Ogryn Options.

See, an Ogryn can start with an implanted weapon. But once that's done, they're literally stuck with it. It can't be swapped out at any point, nor returned to the Stash (presumably) if the owner snuffs it.

Make the implant weapons potent, but inflexible. The other weapons fairly standard. You're pretty much golden.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Bright side there that this is optional, provided you've already got Gangs of the Underhive.

This is an expanded list of options, rather than an outright replacement - at least for now.

Much of it is firmly optional in nature. Things like House specific terrain, the Genesmithing etc.

This book contains a lot of errata and fixes to the main rules. Universal core rules like group activations, leading by example, hired guns, pets, gang composition, promotions, specialists, alliances and weapon profiles are now changed, updated and clarified. This is N20, the new edition of Necromunda. The old is dead and won't be a topic for discussion.

It's tough to know how to feel about the new series of books tbh.

I really like House of Chains. I'm anticipating all the others(except Van Saar - I still find their modern "they have a super-sekrit STC system tucked away in the basement" thing fully pants-on-head, and anticipate the book doubling down rather than fixing that). It feels like these books will - providing they can keep up at least the vague pretense of proofreading - finally realise the promise of N17 that they were going to give us the classic game, just *more* of it.

OTOH, it really does rankle to find them asking us to buy new rules for the original House gangs for the third time in three years. I waited for the GotU compilation to come out before buying-in to the rules, so it stings a bit less for me than it no doubt does for people who've already been through this once before, but it's still a bit of a turd in the stew.

If they're going to sell people on these, they're going to have to make sure they all follow the gang update + new gang + ally minifaction format - including models - and make the combination of the much expanded background info and the latter two additions be enough of a draw to sell the books on their own merits, with the updated gang rules for the main houses just as an incidental thing. Getting at least a couple of the thematically-matched Outlanders gangs in there would certainly help I think(I'll forgive a lot if I get a proper Redemption release, even just a leader & champs box with an instruction to use Cawdor as your plebs).

Agreed.

That House of Chains is a worthy book doesn't fully remove the rankle at 'what, again?'

It is annoying - but at least we're getting solid content, and it's not purely just a repackage with a couple of doodads.

One does have the feeling that this may be Necromunda being a victim of it's own success? With (assumed, yes, I know) healthy sales, the dev team have been given more freedom, and have started by going back and doing it how they always wanted to do it.

Urgh. Ball of conflicting opinions! I've always said, since we first found how N17 was being handled release wise, that I don't mind nickle and diming, provided the content is there. And it has been (for me). But....there is a limit.

The feel of Goliath society in this book, makes them out to be almost human Orks.

While I greatly appreciate the increased background, I think I still have a bit of trouble believing how a House composed of members with short natural lifespans (even the Natborns) and whose economy is primarily focused on smelting (with finer detail or intellectual work done by slaves) can be a major power, let alone a growing almost dominant power that the other Houses fear could take over all of Necromunda. I've always viewed the Goliaths as survivors, but along the lines of Cawdor, in carving out a niche for themselves doing the lower end stuff, while Van Saar, Escher, and Delaques have the high end stuff (tech, chemicals/pharmaceuticals, information/finance), and Orlocks are sort of in the middle (raw material extraction and transport).

I know the Imperium is not a society that values learning and knowledge, but from a purely materialistic point of view, I would think things like pharmaceuticals and tech would be a rarer (and hence more valuable) resource than a few more tons of smelted metal. I suppose one could argue Goliaths produce enough quantity to offset the lower value per unit.

Need to look beyond the planetary economy.

House Goliath enables Necromunda to meet its tithes. That buys significant approval from Helmawr, no?

Necromunda met its tithes before the Goliaths existed. Smelters and forges existed and still do among the other houses. I know it says Goliaths increased production compared to before, but I still have trouble believing this has as much value to the Imperium compared to the higher end goods such as Escher’s chemicals and pharmaceuticals for example. Those other Imperials have to get their medicines and rejuvenation treatments from somewhere after all. I am sure the increased production leading to tolerance by Helmawr is a factor in Goliath’s survival but not quite buying them being the dominant clan house that all the other houses fear will take over all of Necromunda. One could argue that maybe it is just Goliath belief/propaganda or paranoid conspiracy thinking by others, but the writing in House of Chains seems to present it as the objective truth.

Iracundus wrote:
Necromunda met its tithes before the Goliaths existed. Smelters and forges existed and still do among the other houses. I know it says Goliaths increased production compared to before, but I still have trouble believing this has as much value to the Imperium compared to the higher end goods such as Escher’s chemicals and pharmaceuticals for example. Those other Imperials have to get their medicines and rejuvenation treatments from somewhere after all. I am sure the increased production leading to tolerance by Helmawr is a factor in Goliath’s survival but not quite buying them being the dominant clan house that all the other houses fear will take over all of Necromunda. One could argue that maybe it is just Goliath belief/propaganda or paranoid conspiracy thinking by others, but the writing in House of Chains seems to present it as the objective truth.

Well im not sure what you expect of them? they've written its as how they want to build their world and think thats enough. But you are questioning it, we are unlikely to get any progression of that any time soon so why not think how it could be, rather than why it cant be? questioning something that hasnt been fully fleshed out is just a recipe for continued disappointment, far more fun to think up a possible narrative to match how it is and always will be.

Goliaths were first, well, invented, because The Redemption tempted many workers away from the role to become pilgrims.

Design brief was 'docile, but hardy'. Originals were just that. Over the generations, they grew more and more intelligent, whilst retaining the desired qualities.

In essence, they're the perfect worker for Necromunda, because they were designed to be. Once that work force essentially unionised? Damned difficult to put them down - because you can't simply eradicate them.

House Goliath is essentially one of genetic fortune. They do jobs nobody else can, and do them well. Try to take away their industry, they either duff you up, or order a go-slow. Sooner or later if a go-slow/strike? Helmawr (knowing he needs The Goliaths on side) will then be having very stern words with the other houses about why they're interfering, and risking the planet not meeting it's Tithe.

Remember - Planetary Governors can do more or less what they want, when they want in terms of Terran oversight, provided they meet their Tithe.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Goliaths were first, well, invented, because The Redemption tempted many workers away from the role to become pilgrims.

Design brief was 'docile, but hardy'. Originals were just that. Over the generations, they grew more and more intelligent, whilst retaining the desired qualities.

In essence, they're the perfect worker for Necromunda, because they were designed to be. Once that work force essentially unionised? Damned difficult to put them down - because you can't simply eradicate them.

House Goliath is essentially one of genetic fortune. They do jobs nobody else can, and do them well. Try to take away their industry, they either duff you up, or order a go-slow. Sooner or later if a go-slow/strike? Helmawr (knowing he needs The Goliaths on side) will then be having very stern words with the other houses about why they're interfering, and risking the planet not meeting it's Tithe.

Remember - Planetary Governors can do more or less what they want, when they want in terms of Terran oversight, provided they meet their Tithe.

Every one of the Houses can be written as having the potential to jeopardise the tithe because they all provide some good or service and do it better than the other Houses, so I don't see Goliath as having any special advantage there.

Similarly the Houses are also portrayed as forced to rely at least partially on each other, partly by Helmawr's coercion, in order to prevent any House from becoming truly independent. Without a steady supply of the drugs from Escher, for example, the Goliaths could not survive or reproduce. So any threat of a strike by Goliaths can arguably be countered by choking off their supply of critical drugs. Even the House of Chains book admits the Goliaths' own versions of these drugs are but pale imitations of what they get from Escher.

Goliaths survive, and Helmawr has some interest in letting them continue to do so due to their forge output. However Helmawr would have just as much interest in keeping Orlock going for their ore or Escher for their pharmaceuticals. I don't buy how the House of Chains claims the Goliaths are becoming the dominant Clan House because they are the only House that is prospering. Helmawr also has an interest in reining in the Goliaths from becoming too powerful, and there is more to Necromunda's tithe and economy than just metals.

It's all about the power structure.

At the top, you've Helmawr. He's responsible for sanctioning certain industries.

Those he sanctions, seem to be codependent by design. Goliaths can provide more for the smelters than any other House, because as state they were specifically designed for that sort of task.

Keeping House Goliath in check are House Escher, as House Goliath needs them to provide the chems and stimms.

So, yes. It is possible House Orlock could make a play for House Goliath's resources, seeking to cut out the middle man. Except....I don't think House Escher would sit idly by whilst their biggest market is removed from the equation. Yes, the other Houses buy their wares, but House Goliath are the biggest single Market Share. No vendor would willingly surrender such income.

House Goliath are spreading fast precisely because of their design. They can occupy Hazard Zones with far greater ease than the other Houses, barring perhaps Van Saar (who have tech on their side). But what would say, Delaque or Cawdor do with them? They can't efficiently work them, so why bother seizing them in the first place?

Helmawr's one and only concern here is meeting his Tithe. Fail to do that, and...well.....Inqusition, Administratum etc might pay a visit. Worse, he and his could be entirely removed from power, likely by force.

So as long as everyone is co-dependent on each other to get the job done, but do one or two things better than the others, the status quo is maintained, and everyone continues as they were.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further thinks....

This is the entire reason for Gang Wars in Necromunda. Small groups of fighters, loyal to a specific house, used to wage war on the small scale. Nice and controlled, but in the grand scheme of things, unlikely to properly shake things up.

It's micro management. It may not stand to seize the actual Iron Works - but, if you can take and control a checkpoint type affair? That brings tribute into the House's coffers.

Necromunda. It really is a game of petty politics!

The reason Goliaths are seen as such a threat by the other houses(and why Helmawr keeps such a close eye on them) is because of what they could become, not so much what they are now.

Right now the Goliaths are excellent workers capable of not just surviving but thriving in conditions even augmented baseline humans would struggle to visit, nevermind inhabit, but despite breaking some of the chains that bound them in servitude(sterility, partially anyway, and abject stupidity), as you point out they're still dependent on the other houses, slaves, and Helmawr for chems and advanced tech. They went from being servants to relative equals with the other Clan Houses.

What they all fear is the prospect of them continuing to develop - Natborn live many times longer than Vatborn and are much more intelligent and cunning by default, and while their numbers are growing only slowly, Goliath are actively searching for ways to both further extent the lifespans and intellect of Natborns, and to imbue those traits into the Vatborn. If they were to succeed, they would be the equal of the other Houses in terms of capacity for critical thinking and intrigue, while also being tougher, stronger, more resilient to the nightmarish conditions of Necromunda, and capable of rapidly vat-growing to huge numbers.

Even if they were only to succeed partially, merely doubling the lifespan of the Vatborn and achieving human-standard lifespans for the Natborn, that might be enough for an especially ambitious Natborn to believe they could produce sufficient numbers to overwhelm the other Houses and overthrow Helmawr.

That's why everyone is so wary of them.

Yup.

I do having a feeling that the other books will all have a similar theme of the house "Just on the cusp of taking over" but stymied by some flaw or lack of tools. If they find some way over overcoming X then they'll take over.

So how are people feeling about the Prospects? I like the models a lot, but I really don't see the point. A feeble fighter with a crazy expensive melee weapon doesn't sound ideal to me and one with a crazy expensive gun that doesn't discriminate between friend and foe and has a high chance of taking the user out of action every time they shoot doesn't really seem that appealing either. What am I missing here?

They’re of an appeal to risk takers.

The Storm Welder thing has high damage potential, and half its are going straight to save thanks to Shock.

At the moment, I’m reserving judgement on both Prospects and Stimmer equivalents until we’ve seen how the other house’s versions stack up.

So has it already been discussed that it seems that now only leaders and champions can equip trading post weapons? This is a rather unfortunate change, many conversions become obsolete. I am not going to use my autogun Goliaths as champions. I assume that this will happen to all gangs, limiting the modelling options significantly.

Loaned my book out to a mate, so can’t chip in at the moment I’m afraid, but I did miss that.

Depending on the wording, it could be that newly recruited Leaders and Champions can be equipped with Trading Post goodies from the Stash?

This is the wording on the normal ganger. Seems to me that no Trading Post weapons ever:

EQUIPMENT
Goliath Bruisers and Goliath Specialists may purchase weapons and Wargear from the Goliath Bruiser
equipment list:
• During the course of a campaign, both Goliath Bruisers and Goliath Specialists may be given additional
weapons purchased from this list.
• In addition, during a campaign both Goliath Bruisers and Goliath Specialists may be given additional Wargear
purchased from this list, from the Trading Post and from the Black Market.
• A Goliath Bruiser may only be equipped with weapons chosen from the Basic Weapons, Pistols and Close
Combat Weapons sections of this list.
• Once promoted, a Goliath Specialist has no restrictions upon the types of weapon they can take from this list;
all weapon types within this list become available.

Compare to the champion:

EQUIPMENT
A Goliath Forge Boss may purchase weapons and Wargear from the Goliath Forge Boss equipment list:
• During the course of a campaign, a Goliath Forge Boss may be given additional weapons and Wargear
purchased from this list, from the Trading Post and from the Black Market.
• A Goliath Forge Boss has no restrictions upon the types of weapon they can take; all weapon types
are available.

Seems intentional, though it is easy to miss.

Ok, sweet.

Yeah, I agree with your interpretation.

Depending on taste, it does make sense as it keeps House themes, and stops people simply spamming certain weapons.

But, as ever, Arbitrator Discretion is advised. Which is a major reason why I love Necromunda so much.

Hmm. My first instinct was to say that if I were running a campaign again, I'd drop that limitation for Specialists, but actually now both Juves & Prospects can be "troop choices" for the gang, that change would make it so there would be very little reason to ever take a Ganger over a Juve(who gets promoted to a Specialist quick & free).

Overall I think it's a good idea in principle - IMO Newcromunda gangs got far too "exotic" & high tech far too quickly - but it puts some kinda silly restrictions on what should be ludicrously commonplace gear in the setting. I'd probably end up keeping the new rule, but also adding a couple of the more commonplace weapons like autoguns and lasguns to the Ganger equipment list for everybody, probably at a bit of a price premium.

As for the Prospects, pretty much their sole redeeming feature is they can relatively quickly stop being Prospects.

I think the new format for gangs - assuming they plan to keep using it for the other House books, which seems logical - requires a bit of an adjustment in thinking when people are building their roster/planning future progression. Prospects kind of take over from Juves, in that the "best" way to use them is probably to give them the cheapest gear you can and then try to "powerlevel" them up to Champions as quickly as you can. That might change depending on the inevitable FAQ giving a ruling on whether or not they can keep using the whacky-weapons after they ascend to Champ/SpecialChamp, since some of the combos if they can are quite interesting and the wording at the moment is far from clear(shockeroonie eh). Juves vs Gangers now more becomes a tradeoff - you can have moderate punch right away with Gangers at a cost, or you can save some creds and deal with less punch in the short term in the hope that your Juves stick around long enough to go Specialist.