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 Trickstick wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Alas, valkyiries at their implementation had also a lot of issues, especially when they were the only ones with regular available AA.....

They weren't that bad during 5th, when they originally came out. Don't forget that flyer rules came later, originallly they were just fast skimmers.

Aye, still though.

Makes me wonder why missile launchers don't get standardwise AA missiles for havocs etc. the gun is expensive enough, paying through the nose for adaptability might aswell make it really usefull.

the only flyer rules in 5th were from FW and were strafing runs. alot about it i liked better than what they did in 6/7th

using those rules-immobilize a flyer-it crashed. sure you needed 6+ to hit it with non AA capable units. but the AA units could choose to shoot air or ground at the start of the shooting round at normal BS skill.. it should also be noted back then all actual flyers were universally only armor 10 all around (even superheavies) save the thunderhawk. that was a wopping 12/12/10. also jump infantry could assault them. the reason the valkyrie became a problem is because they startted them as a skimmer and thus had to up the AV on them from the original 10/10/10. then they made them flyers and kept the skimmer AV .


If somebody put a deathstar on the table in 6th/7th i would just refuse the game. no point in wasting my time pllaying a boring game like that- a unit of DW terminators with multiple terminator librarians joined to the unit giving them a 2+/3+ re-rollable save and you can only ever even hit them on 6+ .

There were so many good builds in the 5th ed guard codex(still the best IMHO) the leafblower boogieman was more of a tournament thing. none of the IG players i know played it. although there was fun sillyness like El ra'him outflanking and entire mechanized infantry platoon with full support. or creed deciding to "infiltrate" a baneblade or squad of hell hounds......and then there was john ramb...er i mean marbo

 aphyon wrote:
the only flyer rules in 5th were from FW and were strafing runs. alot about it i liked better than what they did in 6/7th

using those rules-immobilize a flyer-it crashed. sure you needed 6+ to hit it with non AA capable units. but the AA units could choose to shoot air or ground at the start of the shooting round at normal BS skill.. it should also be noted back then all actual flyers were universally only armor 10 all around (even superheavies) save the thunderhawk. that was a wopping 12/12/10. also jump infantry could assault them. the reason the valkyrie became a problem is because they startted them as a skimmer and thus had to up the AV on them from the original 10/10/10. then they made them flyers and kept the skimmer AV .


If somebody put a deathstar on the table in 6th/7th i would just refuse the game. no point in wasting my time pllaying a boring game like that- a unit of DW terminators with multiple terminator librarians joined to the unit giving them a 2+/3+ re-rollable save and you can only ever even hit them on 6+ .

There were so many good builds in the 5th ed guard codex(still the best IMHO) the leafblower boogieman was more of a tournament thing. none of the IG players i know played it. although there was fun sillyness like El ra'him outflanking and entire mechanized infantry platoon with full support. or creed deciding to "infiltrate" a baneblade or squad of hell hounds......and then there was john ramb...er i mean marbo

The major difference between Flyers in 4e/5e when they were running on the FW-based Apocalypse rules and Flyers in 6e/7e when GW was trying to make them a mainstream part of the game is that the FW Flyers had at best AV11. There were a lot of 10/10/10 flyers and some 11/11/10 flyers, and then in 5e GW decides to try and backdoor Flyers into the main game as Skimmers, and makes the Valkyrie and the Stormraven 12/12/10, and then makes them Flyers in 6e without either changing their stats or improving AA in any way. The always-hits-on-6s thing was balanced around AV10-11 flyers with 2 hull points and to be AV12 as a flyer you had to literally be a Thunderhawk, and then GW dumped plastic 12/12/10 3HP Flyers into the game without considering the consequences.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The story goes like this:
6th - invisibility is insanely powerful
7th - GW buffed invisibility

What's the harm in buffing a spell that was already being used to create deathstars?

that reminds me of the rumor that in 7th gw buffed librarians because, despite everyone outside GW hq knowing psychic powers were really good GW only used melee captains and chaplains so thought everyone else did too and buffed Libbys so they would see more play...

Wayniac wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The story goes like this:
6th - invisibility is insanely powerful
7th - GW buffed invisibility

What's the harm in buffing a spell that was already being used to create deathstars?

that reminds me of the rumor that in 7th gw buffed librarians because, despite everyone outside GW hq knowing psychic powers were really good GW only used melee captains and chaplains so thought everyone else did too and buffed Libbys so they would see more play...

To be fair, IMHO, chaplains ruled in 3rd, and captains were the masters of 4th. Librarians took over from 5-7th, and now we are back to captains (and LTs.) for auras.

one problem of 6th was that GW introduced new rules that completely shaked up the system, but did not changed the Codex books but changed them when their new books came out.

with an edition were USR was a thing and it would have been no problem to give out an Errata or even write it in the RB which units become flyers and that all rocket launcher type weapons get AA missiles they did not used it and than blamed USR to be not working


regarding GW playing something different, it also came up that they played something wrong in a WD and when asked about it the statement was that they did not liked the specific rule and therefore changed it for their own games (but never felt that they need to get out an Errata to change it for everyone else too, because rules are just guidelines and players should change whatever they don't like)


5th had its flaws, but it was the last time other factions than Marines saw some love and had their best books
it was end of 5th were books with "next edition in mind" came out that the problems started