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Isn't there also a thing where Tzeentch's plans fail until it is suddenly revealed that the "failure" itself was "all according to plan" and Tzeentch's plans are so mind fucky that they often have no point beyond the plan themselves/Tzeentch can't even keep his own scheme's straight because all he's really about is scheming and the aftermath of any scheme is largely irrelevant except in howsoever it furthers some other scheme? Which is itself both a strength and a weakness (in true Chaos fashion) and trying to measure the power and success of Tzeentch or anyone who is in his web is a fundamentally futile effort because success/failure are just empty words in the grand scheme of scheming for scheming's sake.
Yes. LordofHats gets it ....
Far as everything else in the thread - it is kind of annoying how, the second you become "all powerful" and "immortal" in 40k, all you really get to do is die/fail, whenever a writer needs a quick/easy way to show how powerful someone ELSE is ... I mean, when was the last time an Avatar of Khaine actually WON a fight in the fluff? So no, I don't think he's in too much danger of being "too much" because he can now be "killed" without consequence. This ensuring that he both sticks around in the fluff, but also never gets a straight up "win" either. That's just how GW writers like to do things with a lot of the "bad guys" ...
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
Showing my grey hairs here, but a) I said resistant, not immune, and b) in past codexes Wolves did have (or could get) wargear that protected them from psychic powers, and the Canis Helix has literally been described as thought to be the reason for the Wolves' innate resistance to Chaos.
Bran Dawri wrote: Not to mention that the Space Wolves are inherently resistant to psychic powers.
Where is that mentioned? I thought it was only Russ himself.
As far as I know it's only ever directly mentioned in regards to Leman Russ himself, but generally all Astartes inherit the traits of the Primarchs to lesser degrees. I'm not sure it necessarily needs to be directly stated.
Its a pretty major ability that hasn't ever come up anywhere and isn't a game mechanic.
If its true, its definitely the kind of thing that needs to be directly stated. Much like the 2nd edition codex, where their higher than average combat ability was shown by having WS5.
Voss wrote: Its a pretty major ability that hasn't ever come up anywhere
I actually went back to A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and it is mentioned. A Thousand Sons even gives an explanation too, though given the underlying irony of how ignorant the Thousand Sons really were of the Warp whether or not they properly understand anything is an open question. Of course, I just finished Path of Heaven, which just goes around and explains that the Wolves actually are onto something that they come on naturally (and something Leman was capable of), but its something just about anyone can do; believe in yourself hard enough and you can tell the warp to feth off.
If its true, its definitely the kind of thing that needs to be directly stated.
Having gone back and looked, it is, but Black Library has no consistency with itself so who knows when the next SW related book will come around and decide that's not how it works.
Much like the 2nd edition codex, where their higher than average combat ability was shown by having WS5
Oh, so when later editions rolled around and they were just BS4 they got retconned into just being "as good as everyone else" at combat? Cause later editions still said they were better than average.
Were the Raven Guard not sneak marines before later editions of the game provided actual rules for it? Were the Alpha Legion not sneaky before they got some rules to make them "sneaky?" This is so patently silly I don't know why it needs explaining. If we're just treating tabletop mechanics as the be all and end all of what matters in the lore then the answer to this thread is "by shooting all your guns at him on turn one" and someone already made that joke here so what's the point of this discussion at all? The tabletop mechanics have spoken. Shoot enough bullets at it and you can in fact defeat the most powerful psyker in the universe (who isn't big daddy emperor).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/28 03:48:29
Voss wrote: Its a pretty major ability that hasn't ever come up anywhere
I actually went back to A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and it is mentioned. A Thousand Sons even gives an explanation too, though given the underlying irony of how ignorant the Thousand Sons really were of the Warp whether or not they properly understand anything is an open question.
Would you mind supporting that with a quote? The SW rune priest does not believe himself to be a psyker (from "a thousand sons"), which is discussed. But the SW being inherently resistent to psychic attack I dont recall, and it was not something that was shown/mentioned during the battle/s.
Having gone back and looked, it is, but Black Library has no consistency with itself so who knows when the next SW related book will come around and decide that's not how it works.
Again, can we have a quote?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/28 11:04:39
I'm not hunting through 40+ hours of audio books twice and typing it out. From memory;
In A Thousand Sons, Wyrdmake makes a comment about the Space Wolves talismans and Ahriman comments like a first year grad student about how it actually works in an internal monologue. Their talismans aren't magic, but they 'believe' they work and such belief has real power. Also a great moment in general imo, cause it's a moment where we're shown the Wolves and the Sons could have been buddies if fate had followed a different course.Neither were immediately dismissive of 'superstition' but that's something else. Ironically enough that actually does have a mechanical representation now that I think of it, at least back in 5th ed and the wolf tail talismans providing an invulnerable save while no having any tech in them (in contrast to a rosarius or iron halo).
Towards the end of A Thousand Sons, Russ' howling is revealed to feth over psykers. They literally feel pain when he does it. The description given is reminiscent of a pariah but I'm pretty sure the book wasn't trying to say he was a pariah cause daemons and gak still see him in other books. After Prospero Burns the impression is more that Russ and the wolves literally tell warp energy to feth off because "they're from Fenris" which is a bs explanation until you get to Path of Heaven's explanation for how Chorogis' customs and traditions are used by Storm Seers to handle Warp stuff safely i.e. believe in something not the warp hard enough and you can channel warp energy through that belief without fething yourself over. Which now that I think of it probably relates right on back to that bit in False Gods where whats-her-face banishes a daemon with sheer belief in the Emperor.
What one believes matters when it comes to warp stuff, at least until BL contradicts themselves which they already might have for all I know I'm reading books from like, 5 years ago.
In A Thousand Sons, Wyrdmake makes a comment about the Space Wolves talismans and Ahriman comments like a first year grad student about how it actually works in an internal monologue. Their talismans aren't magic, but they 'believe' they work and such belief has real power.
Yes, and everything Ahriman thought he knew of the great ocean was turned upside down at the very end of the book. Wyrdmake even calls them wards: "Warding symbols?’ suggested Wyrdmake, ‘Like the wolf talismans we bear"
The closet I can get to a hint of them being inherent resistant is this:
Spoiler:
The aether swelled around him as he built energy in his flesh. This was what it meant to be alive, to tap into the wellspring of the Primordial Creator and wield that power as deftly as a swordsman wields a blade.
That energy swirled around Skarssen and his warriors, yet where it easily passed through the Astartes of the Thousand Sons, the Space Wolves were anathema to it. Skarssen’s aura was little more than a dulled haze, like winter sunrise through thick fog.
Was Skarssen veiled?
That seemed unlikely, though perhaps the many fetishes hanging from his armour were shielding him. The protection offered by such talismans was largely illusory, but belief in such things could be a potent force. Even as he formed the thought, Ahriman caught a flash of a bearded warrior in a leather skullcap in the midst of the Terminators, like a shadow amongst the deeper darkness or a whisper in a thunderstorm.
He sensed kindred power, but in the instant of its recognition, it vanished.
But whether this is do to their wards/talismans, Wyrdmake being present or them having a natural resistance to the warp, is a bit hard to nail down.
now that I think of it, at least back in 5th ed and the wolf tail talismans providing an invulnerable save while no having any tech in them (in contrast to a rosarius or iron halo
No, it could nullifie a psychic power on a roll of 5+.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/28 16:19:11
Andersp90 wrote: Yes, and everything Ahriman thought he knew of the great ocean was turned upside down at the very end of the book.
Yeah. I said that in the first post. Later books though kind of support that presumption of his up. Prospero Burns and Path of Heaven expand on the notion that believing in something gives it power, which isn't even unique to those novels. Keeler's her name I think, does the banishing in False Gods through sheer belief. I suppose it may be more accurate to say the Wolves have more a mentality that is useful when fighting warp stuff rather than any sort of gene-seed granted resistance.
But whether this is do to their wards/talismans, Wyrdmake being present or them having a natural resistance to the warp, is a bit hard to nail down.
Honestly A Thousand Sons probably didn't even know. Having read through into the last quarter of the series before the Siege of Terra, there was a definite transition in the HH series right around A Thousand Sons where the series seemed to switch from being a 'bunch of books telling us that stuff that happened with more words" to "lets make an epic out of it." I don't know that there was a concrete plan for what that moment was supposed to mean at the time A Thousand Sons was written. It's later after Propsero Burns I think where the series takes a notably turn to shooting for being much longer and "drawn out" than the first dozen+ books of the series seemed to intend things to be.
No, it could nullifie a psychic power on a roll of 5+.
I thought that was the Rune Priest's staff thingies? Or did they both do the same thing?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/28 16:32:51
LordofHats wrote: I suppose it may be more accurate to say the Wolves have more a mentality that is useful when fighting warp stuff rather than any sort of gene-seed granted resistance.
That would also be my guess.
I thought that was the Rune Priest's staff thingies? Or did they both do the same thing?
The staff was even more powerfull. 24" range and would nullifie on a 4+.
LordofHats wrote: [Oh, so when later editions rolled around and they were just BS4 they got retconned into just being "as good as everyone else" at combat? Cause later editions still said they were better than average.
Yep. When they got demoted to one of several close combat chapters, that's all they were
Were the Raven Guard not sneak marines before later editions of the game provided actual rules for it? Were the Alpha Legion not sneaky before they got some rules to make them "sneaky?" This is so patently silly I don't know why it needs explaining.
Nope and nope. Neither group was notable for sneaking at the beginning. The RG weren't even relevant as a chapter for years- not even as much as the Silver Skull or Rainbow Warriors (who appear in RT and RG don't), let alone notable for a specialization. Neither rules nor background supported 'sneaky' marines until 3rd edition started groping vaguely in that direction.... with rules. And more background about some of the 'also rans' which hadn't been fleshed out before. Alpha Legion was introduced by being on the Slaaneshi page in Slaves to Darkness, and their sum of their fluf was 'the fearsome contortions in the Alpha Legion's emblem is matched by the twisted minds and bodies of the Legionaires.' That's all anyone had to go on for years...not 'sneaky marines'
If we're just treating tabletop mechanics as the be all and end all of what matters in the lore then the answer to this thread is "by shooting all your guns at him on turn one" and someone already made that joke here so what's the point of this discussion at all? The tabletop mechanics have spoken. .
The point is to support your random assertion in some way. It doesn't have to be purely tabletop mechanics, but the idea that Space Wolves have some sort of ability to shrug off psychic powers is huge and needs to be supported by _something_.
Shoot enough bullets at it and you can in fact defeat the most powerful psyker in the universe (who isn't big daddy emperor)
Another good reason why such models don't belong on the tabletop. The fluff and game are incompatible when it comes to superbeings and special characters.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/28 19:29:22
As I said, I dont like using BL as hard lore. Mainly because it isnt. And there is a low quality of uniformity. In Wrath of Magnus it is never shown or stated that any Wolf has any amount of psychic protection. They got warp chunked all the same. Since Wrath of Magnus is codex level Lore I would say that it takes precedent over a BL novel. As for Russ having the ability to cancel out a omega level psyker like Magnus and the Emps? I dont buy it. I understand why they had to give him that, because without it Magnus would have popped his head like a zit. The whole Null idea has become to much of a safe zone to keep psykers in check, but thats just me.
To my understanding much of the reason why the sons lost prospero is because they were fighting custodes and sisters AND a entire legion. Am I wrong in this? I still have not looked into the PoS and the maledictum angle. Will do so soon.
To my understanding much of the reason why the sons lost prospero is because they were fighting custodes and sisters AND a entire legion. Am I wrong in this? I still have not looked into the PoS and the maledictum angle. Will do so soon.
I've always had the sense it was a bunch of things; being horribly outnumbered as one of the smallest legions (and, going by A Thousand Sons, their daemon 'pets' turned on them en masse), being subject to orbital bombardment with their planetary defenses shut off, getting smacked by the Wolfies, Custodes, and Sisters, and Tzeench fething around probably wasn't helping.
Table wrote: Im not sure if a null would stop him from chopping something in half. Im not certain what the range of nulls and bad things is. I suppose it will change with the story.
Keep in mind. Im mainly talking about a one on one encounter. Bobby could bring sisters and Magnus could bring tanks to deal with those nulls. It goes back and forth like a saturday morning cartoon game of one upsmanship.
I still stand by my statement that GW has Draigo'd Magnus. He needs to be toned down. But how? Even before the demon prince upgrade Magnus was the second most powerful psyker in the imperium of man and one day perhaps even on equal footing with his father as he was to take his place on the golden throne. The only one powerful enough to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
techsoldaten wrote: Magnus suffers from the same fatal flaw that cripples all heroes of the 40k universe: turn 1, before his own psychic phase.
I'm certain the emperor went second during the heresy and failed to seize the initiative.
As someone who uses Mags on a fairly regular frequency, I can appreciate this. :(
Where did you get that ? It's not written anywhere in the ritual of the damned.
Table wrote: Magnus seems to be a near god, if we follow the lore laid out since Wrath of Magnus. How, could Bobby G even get close enough to fight with him recently? Magnus has been shown to be able to crush entire battleships in the orbit of Fenris. Fire smites that one shot land raiders and other heavy machines. This is even before we bring into account his massive demon frame and the strength behind it. For the record. I am not a Magnus fan boy. Sure, I play 1ksons and use his mini. I also like the character. But I do not have a obsessive compulsion to mary stu his powerlevel. All that I have written has come from GW proper lore and not Black Library.
Plot armor is powerful yes, but it only goes so far. I think they made Magnus far to powerful. At this point, no living being is a match for him. Not even Mortarion, a fellow demon prince. Am I missing something? I am also not counting the ritual that Magnus completed in Wrath of Magnus that allowed him to outright ignore any all weapons of the Imperium. I leave this out because the recent events had him have to shield himself from a extermenatus blast from orbit, something he did not have to do in WoM. So Im guessing the ritual was broken when Khornes axe wounded him.
Magnus is just a symptom of the fact that there is no real competitive balance between psykers and non-psykers, only certain niche counters like pariahs and Russ having an unusually high resistance to psychic powers even for a Primarch.
It's more noticeable for Magnus because he's both among the most powerful psykers in the galaxy as well as a demigod with vast superhuman physical power.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/09 00:54:04
