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Sterling191 wrote:

Welcome to immunology. gak doesnt make sense, but thats how it works.

I think you are missing the point. Immunology is irrelevant in this case, because compatibility clearly isent an issue: "If the bio-matter from Hive Fleet Kraken were to merge with that of Leviathan, the resultant strains of Tyranids would be all but unstoppable, for they would combine the genetic secrets of Ork, Aeldari and human alike."

I am arguying that I dosent make sense that two fleets have to meet up and physically exchange genetic information, when it should be easily shared/exchanged psychically.

Not to state the obvious but you can't merge something you don't have so you do actually need the biomass of Eldar, Orks and humans to merge them together.

pm713 wrote:
Not to state the obvious but you can't merge something you don't have so you do actually need the biomass of Eldar, Orks and humans to merge them together.

The genomes could be sent psychically, to then be synthesized directly on the ship.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to state the obvious but you can't merge something you don't have so you do actually need the biomass of Eldar, Orks and humans to merge them together.

The genomes could be sent psychically, to then be synthesized directly on the ship.

That seems like asking a lot of a race like the Tyranids. Not to mention extremely complex and hard.

pm713 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to state the obvious but you can't merge something you don't have so you do actually need the biomass of Eldar, Orks and humans to merge them together.

The genomes could be sent psychically, to then be synthesized directly on the ship.

That seems like asking a lot of a race like the Tyranids. Not to mention extremely complex and hard.

Complex and hard? So you are saying that the tyranids are able to bioengieneer space crafts, warrior organisms etc, but creating a strand of DNA, the whole basis of bioengineering, is somehow beyond them?

We already have the technology to create synthetic DNA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxKyk_uDFg

And you might want to read up on the norn queens: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Norn-Queen

 Andersp90 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Welcome to immunology. gak doesnt make sense, but thats how it works.

I think you are missing the point. Immunology is irrelevant in this case, because compatibility clearly isent an issue: "If the bio-matter from Hive Fleet Kraken were to merge with that of Leviathan, the resultant strains of Tyranids would be all but unstoppable, for they would combine the genetic secrets of Ork, Aeldari and human alike."

I am arguying that I dosent make sense that two fleets have to meet up and physically exchange genetic information, when it should be easily shared/exchanged psychically.

Psychics aren’t good at transferring detailed information in 40k. Concepts and feelings, yes, but details no.

nareik wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Welcome to immunology. gak doesnt make sense, but thats how it works.

I think you are missing the point. Immunology is irrelevant in this case, because compatibility clearly isent an issue: "If the bio-matter from Hive Fleet Kraken were to merge with that of Leviathan, the resultant strains of Tyranids would be all but unstoppable, for they would combine the genetic secrets of Ork, Aeldari and human alike."

I am arguying that I dosent make sense that two fleets have to meet up and physically exchange genetic information, when it should be easily shared/exchanged psychically.

Psychics aren’t good at transferring detailed information in 40k. Concepts and feelings, yes, but details no.

I dont think comparing human psykers to the tyranids make a whole lot of sense.

IMO, it is quite possible if not likely that the Hive Mind understands genetics on an instinctive but not intellectual level. It instinctively knows how to create an organism that regenerates, or runs fast, or has synapse, and when it adapts better versions through trial-and-error (as in, guessing enough times to get a good answer) it instinctively knows how to overwrite old traits with better versions.

To put things in a human perspective: one does not think about, say, moving their arm. They just do it. But now try to explain HOW to move your arm in text form.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
IMO, it is quite possible if not likely that the Hive Mind understands genetics on an instinctive but not intellectual level. It instinctively knows how to create an organism that regenerates, or runs fast, or has synapse, and when it adapts better versions through trial-and-error (as in, guessing enough times to get a good answer) it instinctively knows how to overwrite old traits with better versions.

To put things in a human perspective: one does not think about, say, moving their arm. They just do it. But now try to explain HOW to move your arm in text form.

I guess so. But I dont like it.

I am not a fan of that bit of fluff either TBH, but it is what it is.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

To put things in a human perspective: one does not think about, say, moving their arm. They just do it. But now try to explain HOW to move your arm in text form.

The arm movement is a conscious choice so you can describe it and it can be learned - such as when people have a stroke or spinal injury.

A better example would be something like how our immune system works. We have no control over it - it does amazing things and it adapts, works and does all this fantastic stuff. But we can only influence it by things like eating properly, rest and medication. We can't tell it or control it. We can't say "hey ignore that odd organ that just got shoved in there, its a new kidney its good for us.

The Tyranids might be a touch like that in that creating and testing new strains is a functionary level aspect of them; not even "instinctive"*, but purely a function of how they operate. It might explain why they can weave and spin and create new creatures to deal with problems, but only after encountering them rather than in preparation for them. Or how they do weapon-tests by fighting each other to find the stronger strains.



* a LOT of what we like to call instinct is either learned behaviour when creatures are exceptionally young; or even purely learned behaviour that favours the natural structure and "tools" the creature has

 Overread wrote:


* a LOT of what we like to call instinct is either learned behaviour when creatures are exceptionally young; or even purely learned behaviour that favours the natural structure and "tools" the creature has

You might want to look up the definition of instinct..

The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets. That's why some rules in the codex are gated by the HIVE FLEET Keyword.

Some stuff runs deeper, like the Swarmlord or the base adaptions and organisms all Hive Fleets have access to, but new stuff is going to take time to transmit through the Hive Mind.

Tyran wrote:
The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets.

I have read the novel, and no such thing is mentioned. And clearly, they are (were) compatible.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets.

I have read the novel, and no such thing is mentioned. And clearly, they are (were) compatible.

I'm kinda paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.

Tyran wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets.

I have read the novel, and no such thing is mentioned. And clearly, they are (were) compatible.

I'm kinda paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.

Its mentioned again and again, that their minds need time to merge. Thats it.

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets.

I have read the novel, and no such thing is mentioned. And clearly, they are (were) compatible.

I'm kinda paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.

Its mentioned again and again, that their minds need time to merge. Thats it.

And guess which is the medium in which information is transmitted in the Tyranid race.

Tyran wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

Tyran wrote:
The novel pretty much explains the issue. Each Hive Fleet has evolved by itself and that has led to compatibility issues between Hive Fleets.

I have read the novel, and no such thing is mentioned. And clearly, they are (were) compatible.

I'm kinda paraphrasing, but I'm pretty sure it is mentioned.

Its mentioned again and again, that their minds need time to merge. Thats it.

And guess which is the medium in which information is transmitted in the Tyranid race.

I dont get what you are saying here..

Agreed? Is that how it works? I thought Tyranids transmitted information on specially grown sheet of vellum-like hide grown on special scribe-beasts.

 Nurglitch wrote:
Agreed? Is that how it works? I thought Tyranids transmitted information on specially grown sheet of vellum-like hide grown on special scribe-beasts.

??

 Nurglitch wrote:
Agreed? Is that how it works? I thought Tyranids transmitted information on specially grown sheet of vellum-like hide grown on special scribe-beasts.

 Andersp90 wrote:

I dont get what you are saying here..

The Tyranid hive minds of both fleets were merging, without that merge information, including genetic one, cannot be transmitted.

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Not to state the obvious but you can't merge something you don't have so you do actually need the biomass of Eldar, Orks and humans to merge them together.

The genomes could be sent psychically, to then be synthesized directly on the ship.

That seems like asking a lot of a race like the Tyranids. Not to mention extremely complex and hard.

Complex and hard? So you are saying that the tyranids are able to bioengieneer space crafts, warrior organisms etc, but creating a strand of DNA, the whole basis of bioengineering, is somehow beyond them?

We already have the technology to create synthetic DNA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFxKyk_uDFg

And you might want to read up on the norn queens: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Norn-Queen

I'm saying there's a difference between transmitting pure information and mashing things together until they work as desired.

That's cool and all but we aren't Tyranids. Tyranids don't use technology like that. That's a very basic part of their lore.

Tyran wrote:

 Andersp90 wrote:

I dont get what you are saying here..

The Tyranid hive minds of both fleets were merging, without that merge information, including genetic one, cannot be transmitted.

Clearly, some information can be exchanged between fleets psychically, but genetic information does not seem to be one of them. That has been the topic of this thread for the last 1000 posts. Plz read read them before posting..

pm713 wrote:

I'm saying there's a difference between transmitting pure information and mashing things together until they work as desired.

That's cool and all but we aren't Tyranids. Tyranids don't use technology like that. That's a very basic part of their lore.

Oki doki.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am not a fan of that bit of fluff either TBH, but it is what it is.

Why not? I like the idea a fair bit, it stops Tyranids being completely ridiculous.

pm713 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am not a fan of that bit of fluff either TBH, but it is what it is.

Why not? I like the idea a fair bit, it stops Tyranids being completely ridiculous.

I do not like that the merger would create such a massively stronger strain of Tyranids in the first place. I feel like the potential for improvement would not be that large, and that if it WAS that large the Hive Mind would be making efforts to do it.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am not a fan of that bit of fluff either TBH, but it is what it is.

Why not? I like the idea a fair bit, it stops Tyranids being completely ridiculous.

I do not like that the merger would create such a massively stronger strain of Tyranids in the first place. I feel like the potential for improvement would not be that large, and that if it WAS that large the Hive Mind would be making efforts to do it.

Oh, did you mean the fluff that merging the Fleets would kill everything? I thought you meant the idea that Tyranids merge genetics instinctively rather than putting lots of thought behind it.

But the Tyranids are making an effort to do it, they are constantly devouring genetic material. Specially human and ork, Eldar are harder to catch.

They do that as they go around, they aren't specifically targeting races for genetic material. Otherwise they could have one fleet grab whatever material they need and immediately rush them towards each other.

pm713 wrote:
They do that as they go around, they aren't specifically targeting races for genetic material. Otherwise they could have one fleet grab whatever material they need and immediately rush them towards each other.

Actually it has been stated multiple times in multiple sources they specifically target genetic material.

Hive Fleet Horror wrote:They knew that every system, whether mechanical or biological, eventually runs down. Most species lasted only a few million years. A few - like some Earth ants - managed to survive for up to a hundred million years. But sooner or later they perished as their DNA either failed to adapt or simply deteriorated through natural wear.

The tyranids had found the only possible remedy for this. They moved from galaxy to galaxy, harvesting fresh, newly evolved DNA with which to renew and reinvigorate their own. They were the universe's ultimate life form. Quite possibly they had existed forever, and would continue to exist forever. Quite possibly the universe contained an infinite number of hive fleets.

The Imperium of Man had beaten off one hive fleet. Perhaps it could beat off others. It would be a rare reversal for the tyranids, but that did not matter at all. In a few million years the Imperium would be gone, the human race would be gone, and some other hive fleet would arrive, meeting weaker resistance, and would leave the galaxy lifeless and desolate.

Then, a few billion years later, life would evolve all over again, on millions of planets.

And again a hive fleet would move in....

White Dwarf 145 wrote:The Tyranid hive mind hungers for fresh genetic material, gene-stocks that can be used to create new bio-construct creatures and organic machine-slaves. Their own galaxy is exhausted, its creatures long since absorbed into the hive mind, their flesh turned to unfathomable purposes or discarded as useless. With its billions of humans and countless other creatures the Imperium offers the Tyranids an almost inexhaustible stock of flesh and genes which will invigorate the hive mind and enable it to embody itself in new forms.

Humanity will be absorbed, broken into strands of DNA to be used to create a new generation of bio-technology. It will be the death of the human race, but to the Tyranid hive mind this is of no more consequence than the mining of ores or the harvesting of crops. For the Tyranids have no sense of pity or compassion, they are as utterly beyond human understanding as humans are beyond their comprehension. To them man is just an inefficient and primitive lifeform, something to be consumed and turned to a higher purpose. Such has been the fate of a thousand galaxies, of millions of intelligent species, since time immemorial.