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So the original color scheme was copied from an actual salamander.


I don't know why, but I find that funny.

I didn't put that together, but yeah. Basically that, but inverted (more yellow)

Things were a bit more wild (and interesting) in the early days.
Not all of it worked but it wasn't as regimented and cookie cutter.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Don't Sallies have a really high mutation rate in their gene seed? I imagine it only takes a few chapters turning out like the Black Dragons for the High Lords to decide it's a bad idea.

I'm going to guess you got that from a particularly infamous "geneseed mutation chance" table. It was a game mechanic for the custom chapter creator and wasn't really based on anything concrete.

jareddm wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Don't Sallies have a really high mutation rate in their gene seed? I imagine it only takes a few chapters turning out like the Black Dragons for the High Lords to decide it's a bad idea.

I'm going to guess you got that from a particularly infamous "geneseed mutation chance" table. It was a game mechanic for the custom chapter creator and wasn't really based on anything concrete.

Yeah, the only "mutation" I've ever seen mentioned for the Salamanders is their faulty melanochrome.

 Matt Swain wrote:
It could be the salamanders are too nice for the high lords of terra to approve of. Maybe they didn't want chapters dedicated to actually serving and protecting the common people like the salamanders are.

Except unlike what dumb 4chan memes would get you to believe, Salamanders actually don't give one damn about common people. They easily had the tech and resources to terraform their homeworld, but 10000 years later, it's still nearly impossible to live in hellhole where volcanic dust in the air makes you lucky if you live past 30. If you want a chapter that really cares about people, it would be Ultramarines (and similar), because they actually improve their lives and do more besides spewing a few empty slogans and token gestures before leaving the survivors to die among empty ruins.

And that's without getting into the whole 'fanatical religion calling for burning anyone who disagrees alive' issue Salamanders have. So fanatical that plasma (which is also arguably a fire) doesn't count as 'flame' weapon to them because it kills too quickly and cleanly and murderizing people slowly in the most excruciating way possible is how you show 'love' apparently

 Karhedron wrote:
The only Legion confirmed to have no successors (prior to the Indomitus Crusade) were the Space Wolves. This was due to Leman Russ's idiosyncratic way of waging war and the difficulty of implanting the SW geneseed in other populations.

Um, no. The whole Russ plan was to plant SW chapters all over the Galaxy to act as guard dogs for the Imperium. The plan was put on hold after WB fiasco then his idiot descendants declared single chapter to be Russ holy plan somehow, maybe because they were incapable of reading his instruction but were too stubborn to ask anyone to do it for them (seriously, that is comically stupid plot point from their books, where one SW apothecary nearly solves the issue and proposes to do what Russ wanted but idiocy of his colleagues ensures it is lost).

 Irbis wrote:
If you want a chapter that really cares about people, it would be Ultramarines (and similar), because they actually improve their lives and do more besides spewing a few empty slogans and token gestures before leaving the survivors to die among empty ruins.

Actually - although Ultramarines are a good example - the first one that springs to mind is the Space Wolves. Grimnar was quite willing to butt heads with the Inquisition over the fate of Armageddon's citizens and defence forces - and it's not like he didn't have his Chapter's support in that regard.
I use them as an example because they obviously do care, *but* (and this is a big but) not to the point of fixing their home planet's death world status and weakening their recruit base as a result. Far as I'm concerned, Salamanders are in the same boat.

I guess the take away here is that even Salamanders and Space Wolves would be considered callous by today's standards of compassion. But in comparison to the rest of 40k? Why, they're practically saints.

Super Ready wrote:I found something!


Turns out they were definitely around in Rogue Trader, and Vulkan's named too - although looks like the homeworld's changed over time, and back then they were known as "the 8th Chapter", as opposed to being either the 8th Legion or the goodness-knows-however-many-umpteenth Chapter.

Source, with loads of other interesting old-school stuff.

My RT Beakies are and have been Salamanders ever since.

By the end of the Heresy there were less than a thousand Salamander left in the entire imperium, that is why there is no second founding chapters (ref: Deathfire) I would guess

As for keeping their people in low tech hellscapes, this is not true, the Salamanders 40k novels show that Nocturne has a high tech level and a good living standard for the Nocturnians living in the great cities that are protected by massive void shields and siesmic stabalisers to survive the season of fire.

 Irbis wrote:
Salamanders easily had the tech and resources to terraform their homeworld, but 10000 years later, it's still nearly impossible to live in hellhole where volcanic dust in the air makes you lucky if you live past 30.

Where'd you read about the life expectancy? I'd like to read it, I miss Salamanders. I gave up on them when I found out Kyme was writing their novels, I think even before they were published.

Even since their IA article in 2000, the Nocturne residents themselves have a high technology level because they supply the mechanicus with industrially useful gems produced by their planet's particular geology. Those geological effects are caused by the sizes and orbits of Nocturne and Prometheus, which can't particularly be changed with weather control technology.

The upheavals open up veins of precious gems and metals, uncovering vital ores for smelting. When the lava flows cool, they can be mined for other precious elements, pockets of gas that can be used to power engines, diamonds and other crystals valuable to the Adeptus Mechanicus for lasers and energy transmission systems....
Coming from a society that places great prestige in craftsmanship and which has high regard for artisans, the Salamanders have access to... highly sophisticated forms of technology. [which] is supplemented by regular trade with the Adeptus Mechanicus, made possible by Nocturne's abundant mineral resources.

Head canon option, with fairly little conflict with recent print materials: there are plenty of Salamander successors, and nobody involved cares in the slightest. Not the Salamanders, not the successors, not the Adeptus Mechanicus, not the High Lords. The training cadres for any new chapters are pulled from whatever chapter has spare assets near wherever the newly founded chapter using 18th Legion geneseed is going to be settled.

Remember that the Mythos Angelica Mortis simply reiterates the Apocrypha of Davio, which is known to have never been completed. The Apocrypha of Skaros - oft confused with the by those progenae delinquent in their studies, merely notes that there were 23 Ultramarine successors in the second founding, and does not name them.

40k is NEVER going to hold together cohesively without some interpretive work on the audience's part. It's part of what makes it a fun sandbox, even if it grinds some gears now and then.

Longstrider wrote:
Head canon option, with fairly little conflict with recent print materials: there are plenty of Salamander successors, and nobody involved cares in the slightest. Not the Salamanders, not the successors, not the Adeptus Mechanicus, not the High Lords. The training cadres for any new chapters are pulled from whatever chapter has spare assets near wherever the newly founded chapter using 18th Legion geneseed is going to be settled.

40k is NEVER going to hold together cohesively without some interpretive work on the audience's part. It's part of what makes it a fun sandbox, even if it grinds some gears now and then.

Yes I want to boost this. On the biology side, the gene seed comes from Martian vaults, not from the original chapter. On the political side, people on forums talk about legion building by Dark Angel, Ultras, Dante, people are well aware of that. The last thing the high lords want is for a chapter master, even Tu’shan, hand-pick officers from his own closest associates whom he’s been cultivating for years, and then give that relatively small group absolute power over a brand new chapter.

pelicaniforce wrote:

Yes I want to boost this. On the biology side, the gene seed comes from Martian vaults, not from the original chapter. On the political side, people on forums talk about legion building by Dark Angel, Ultras, Dante, people are well aware of that. The last thing the high lords want is for a chapter master, even Tu’shan, hand-pick officers from his own closest associates whom he’s been cultivating for years, and then give that relatively small group absolute power over a brand new chapter.

It doesn't always matter what the High Lords want, every First Founding Chapter has the right to request a Chapter Founding of a successor. It's simply that the Salamanders have never exercised that right and other Chapters doing so is rare to begin with.

 Platuan4th wrote:
It doesn't always matter what the High Lords want, every First Founding Chapter has the right to request a Chapter Founding of a successor. It's simply that the Salamanders have never exercised that right and other Chapters doing so is rare to begin with.

Do you have a source for this? Not only have I never read this, I can think of specific examples where the Chapters would not get that request - Space Wolves, for example.

 Super Ready wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
It doesn't always matter what the High Lords want, every First Founding Chapter has the right to request a Chapter Founding of a successor. It's simply that the Salamanders have never exercised that right and other Chapters doing so is rare to begin with.

Do you have a source for this? Not only have I never read this, I can think of specific examples where the Chapters would not get that request - Space Wolves, for example.

The only example I can think of related to this is the Dark Angel's chapter master twisted some arms to get the Disciples of Caliban founded from codex: Dark Angels. But it's not stated in a way to imply this is a standard right of a first founding chapter and instead Grand Master Anaziel flexing to get what he wanted.

Well I got the new codex and there was new information regarding this topic.

Basically there is no confirmed successors to Salamanders but there has been many chapters that had ties with Salamanders. But during the Ultima Founding many chapters were formed that were confirmed to be successors to Salamanders.

All these founded chapters are fully Primaris but when Salamanders learned of these new chapters (in due time) they sent Chaplain(s) to tell all about the Promethean Cult to form closer ties.

Codex mentions 4 of these chapters:

Covenant of Fire, likes seeking knowledge to enlight the galaxy from darkness and burn away all the falseness. Big fans of Promethean Cult apparently.

Black Vipers, basically very secluded chapter that has close ties with Belisarius Cawl. Also, probably murdered the chaplain sent by Salamanders.

Dragonspears, fleet-based chapter that while fighting with Space Wolves are grown as renowed ork hunters. Has a culture of self-sacrifice and they eat the flesh of their fallen brothers.

Dark Krakens, hailing from oceanic world that is rife with megafauna and really big predators. As the humans hunt these beasts for sport and for living, this chapter has tendency to find and fight largest foes, in size or sheer number.

jareddm wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
It doesn't always matter what the High Lords want, every First Founding Chapter has the right to request a Chapter Founding of a successor. It's simply that the Salamanders have never exercised that right and other Chapters doing so is rare to begin with.

Do you have a source for this? Not only have I never read this, I can think of specific examples where the Chapters would not get that request - Space Wolves, for example.

The only example I can think of related to this is the Dark Angel's chapter master twisted some arms to get the Disciples of Caliban founded from codex: Dark Angels. But it's not stated in a way to imply this is a standard right of a first founding chapter and instead Grand Master Anaziel flexing to get what he wanted.

100% the disciples of Caliban always show that it’s really irregular and nothing has ever said the original legions’ successors fan found chapters on their own or that they have legal right to demand the high lords do it

What’s your angle platuan

I found this quote that says chapters can only be founded by terra and that chapters are not supposed to share gene seed with other chapters. It’s in wd 252 and also in codex:Ultramarines which is why I thought I couldn’t find it.

On Earth the Adeptus Terra created genetic repositories to produce and store Space Marine gene-seed. These banks were used to provide all new gene-seed for Space Marines, and, to prevent cross-contamination, the genetic material of each of the old Legions was isolated. Henceforth the new Space Marine Chapters would receive gene-seed only from their own genetic stock.

The gene-seed of the Traitor Legions was placed under a time-locked stasis seal, although at the time many believed these dangerous gene stocks should be destroyed. By taking direct control of the genetic stocks, the Adepts on Earth could ultimately control the Space Marines. Now they alone had the power to destroy or create Space Marine armies at will.

 Karhedron wrote:
The only Legion confirmed to have no successors (prior to the Indomitus Crusade) were the Space Wolves. This was due to Leman Russ's idiosyncratic way of waging war and the difficulty of implanting the SW geneseed in other populations.

Almost entirely the latter.

The only successor was the Wolf Brothers, and they all died out in short order.

As the story goes: the chunks of Great Company that were split off to form the Wolf Brothers found that no matter what they tried they just could not get the Geneseed to take in non-Fenrisians. This left the already well under-strength nascent chapter at an impasse: they could not create new marines and were not allowed to rejoin their parent chapter, so they just went on a suicide crusade.