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Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




England

Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 DalekCheese wrote:
Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.

The Guard(with the exception of maybe the Valhallans, Death Korps, and Penal Legions) are not, nor have they ever been "just speedbumps for tanks" in the lore. That's a thing that has existed almost solely on the tabletop and in the way that people like to portray them when discussing them. The 'reality'(as the case is for fiction) is that they're described as utilizing combined arms tactics comparable to WWII/modern day forces. Infantry will move up alongside of tanks where possible, pieces of kit might be ditched for specialists, different weapons(carbines, rifles, etc) might be utilized as the environment calls for it.
Now, it's also true that the tanks are considered to be more valuable than the standard Guardsmen...but that's not the same thing as them being Grots.

Sidenote:
It's not like I'm really far off in terms of how to look at things anyways. Compare the standard Chaos Cultist to the Renegade Guardsmen that came with Blackstone Fortress:
Spoiler:



Again, it's important to delineate what units might be versus what they might not be.

Oh yeah, and those guys up in the top row? They're all carrying laslocks.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 18:35:47


 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



South Africa

The Guard was always a speedbump for the enemies of the Emperium. They are the weakest, least armoured, lowest firepower meats shields in the galactic forces. Yes technically the PDF, Whitesheilds, Conscripts, Penal Legion and Militia are meant to be even more useless but there is a limit on the tabletop, we only have so many "gaps" for troops to reflect their relative skills.

Making Guardsmen more effective than they are would literally make them "not Guardsmen" any more, at least they'd be encroaching on Kasrkin/Scion territory and they'd be more expensive to field. Better protection? You've just invented Eldar Guardians.

There isn't anything wrong with a "lasgun equivalent 5+ save" army. You get lots of ablative protection, and heavy weapons and tanks. Lots of tanks. There is nothing wrong with that.

There are tons of other armies to play if you don't like IG, why try change IG into something else?

Having cooler, more customizable models that are speedbumps with flashlights is a win.

KBK 
   
Made in us
Hardened Veteran Guardsman




England

 Kanluwen wrote:
 DalekCheese wrote:
Except for the main part, they are just speedbumps for tanks. They are the Imperium’s grots, they are not meant to be good. They’re relatively well-trained compared to PDFs, but that’s not actually saying very much at all. They die in droves every single day. If you start to make them any more than that, then they’re not the Guard.

Anyway, BOT. New models.

The Guard(with the exception of maybe the Valhallans, Death Korps, and Penal Legions) are not, nor have they ever been "just speedbumps for tanks" in the lore. That's a thing that has existed almost solely on the tabletop and in the way that people like to portray them when discussing them. The 'reality'(as the case is for fiction) is that they're described as utilizing combined arms tactics comparable to WWII/modern day forces. Infantry will move up alongside of tanks where possible, pieces of kit might be ditched for specialists, different weapons(carbines, rifles, etc) might be utilized as the environment calls for it.
Now, it's also true that the tanks are considered to be more valuable than the standard Guardsmen...but that's not the same thing as them being Grots.



... but they are, though. They are most certainly good soldiers, but they are not expected to last. They die quickly and unpleasantly, and in very large numbers.



Sidenote:
It's not like I'm really far off in terms of how to look at things anyways. Compare the standard Chaos Cultist to the Renegade Guardsmen that came with Blackstone Fortress:
Spoiler:



Again, it's important to delineate what units might be versus what they might not be.

Oh yeah, and those guys up in the top row? They're all carrying laslocks.


Aren’t they carrying Lasguns similar to the Krieger’s? Maybe not, they can look quite similar. Not sure how it relates to anything.

Anyway, as I said, B. O. T.. How would you revamp the miniatures?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 19:56:41


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

And I said you cannot revamp the miniatures without revamping the rules. There's nothing to revamp otherwise.

As for "why try to change the IG into something else?". Read what I posted earlier.

There's several armies that fit into the 'space' that you lot are trying to suggest Guard need to forever be pigeonholed into. 'Basic' Guard infantry are already a 5+ save(which is the same as Eldar Guardians, unless 8th edition brought them down to Carapace Armor[4+] levels). There is nothing wrong with revamping the existing model archetypes(lightly armored "skirmishers", the Cadian Standard, then the heavy armored troops) into something that is better reflected in their rules. Nobody bats an eye about Space Marine Scouts being a 4+ save while having the same(if not less, because no helmets!) protective measures as a Cadian Shock Trooper(5+).

There is zero reason we could not have a 6+ save 'skirmisher' unit that gets benefits while in cover, a middleweight unit, and a heavy unit.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 20:36:38


 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

As the OP was explicit about discussing just the models for the IG line, and has tried to steer the conversation away from rules and back onto models, lets try and keep the discussion focused on that, there is absolutely plenty of room to have that discussion without getting into rules. If people want to talk about changes they'd like to see in how the army functions and to redefine the rules/statelines, let's leave that for another thread if people have such ideas they want to discuss, thanks!

For my own part, I think the current Cadian kit actually isn't too bad, aside from the heads. The helmets with the Heroic scale look more like infant medical safety helmets than combat gear, to my eyes at least. When you swap the heads on the Cadian kits for any number of aftermarket alternatives, it's a huge improvement, so I'd focus on a remodel of the helmet for Cadians, and add in gas mask options.

In general, I'd also look to add more female head options and revamp the faces/expressions, as all too often GW's attempt at making faces look like they're yelling or intense or angry end up looking more like they're experiencing a bout of painful constipation.

I'd love to see a generic greatcoat guard kit with multiple different head options for different worlds for Valhallans/Krieg/Vosroyans/etc or even different regiments altogether. Really I'd love a cheap plastic generic greatcoat/gas mask/helmet IG. Maybe do a generic "fancy pants" one for Mordians and Praetorians and others too. Adding more kit like backpacks, webbing, magazines, etc would be a huge plus as well.

I'm not sure what I'd do with Catachans. The current models are poor sculpts and the "Predator/Commando" 80's action hero vibe just doesn't have the pop culture chops it used to have. I have literally never seen an actual Catachan-model IG army in person ever, I only ever see the models used for conversions for stuff like cultists or zombies and the like, and they seem to sit on shelves without moving.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



South Africa

*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 21:12:38


KBK 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Vaktathi wrote:

For my own part, I think the current Cadian kit actually isn't too bad, aside from the heads. The helmets with the Heroic scale look more like infant medical safety helmets than combat gear, to my eyes at least. When you swap the heads on the Cadian kits for any number of aftermarket alternatives, it's a huge improvement, so I'd focus on a remodel of the helmet for Cadians, and add in gas mask options.

In general, the current Cadian kit is pretty atrocious when compared to the Genestealer Cultists, Chaos Cultists, and Skitarii. Cadians are about what Catachans are described as though.
And amusingly enough, it isn't the head that is the problem(although a big part of that problem is the helmet is being scaled as larger than it actually is).

In general, I'd also look to add more female head options and revamp the faces/expressions, as all too often GW's attempt at making faces look like they're yelling or intense or angry end up looking more like they're experiencing a bout of painful constipation.

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.

I'd love to see a generic greatcoat guard kit with multiple different head options for different worlds for Valhallans/Krieg/Vosroyans/etc or even different regiments altogether. Really I'd love a cheap plastic generic greatcoat/gas mask/helmet IG. Maybe do a generic "fancy pants" one for Mordians and Praetorians and others too. Adding more kit like backpacks, webbing, magazines, etc would be a huge plus as well.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.


I'm not sure what I'd do with Catachans. The current models are poor sculpts and the "Predator/Commando" 80's action hero vibe just doesn't have the pop culture chops it used to have. I have literally never seen an actual Catachan-model IG army in person ever, I only ever see the models used for conversions for stuff like cultists or zombies and the like, and they seem to sit on shelves without moving.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 21:44:10


 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Did you not clock the [MOD] tag? o_O

The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

We don't have a quarter of those anymore. Attillans are long discontinued, Tallarn are a footnote(who are based off of the British Special Air Service circa North Africa with a bit of Lawrence of Arabia...oh and they don't treat their infantry as expendable. ), Valhallans were WWII vintage(same with Steel Legion)

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.

Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.

Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.

Other companies aren't doing it like GW would be. Other companies are doing stuff in resin or metal or outsourcing it to Chinese plastic production. The only place, currently, that I am aware of "offering individual weapon or head selections" is Privateer Press--and they only offer what they cast in metal or resin on premises.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
Did you not clock the [MOD] tag? o_O

I genuinely didn't! I guess he got promoted.

Congratulations, I guess.

The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

Spoiler:

Amusing part is that design is closer to the Skitarii than the Guard at this point!

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 21:43:53


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.


Yeah, some proper LBE would make a big difference to the kits and give them a more 'real' feel. It doesn't have to be super current-day cutting-edge; just something like an ALICE or RRV would make them a little more 'grounded' than just having random pouches to clip to the belt as in the current kits. It could still be stylized and distinctive.

I still think the 3rd Ed Storm Troopers would be a good reference point stylistically. They had LBE and a fairly 'modern' look, but their armor/helmets/weapons/respirators were original designs and not just straight translations of any historical influence. Scale back the armor from carapace to flak, drop the respirators and backpacks, and give them lasguns, and you would pretty much get some generic modern/sci-fi troops- not too far off from Cadians, really.

Kayback wrote:
Honestly do there need to be Box Sets? Sure a starter kit or two but I'd MUCH prefer to buy a sprue of torsos, a sprue of legs, a sprue of heads, a sprue of guns and a sprue of accessories than what we have now. That'd be a good way to revamp the line. But then I'd sell things like a sprue of Autoguns, hellguns, power packs, gravity harnesses, berets, gasmask heads, sniper rifles, sight options, hydration packs, extra chest mags, different heads... There are plenty other companies that will sell individual weapon or head selections, so why not GW?

I know making molds is hell expensive but other companies are doing it, and with the developments in 3D printing people are going to look elsewhere for their solutions. I'm getting a little sick of having to choose between which box set suits my theme the closest and just dealing, or modifying.


Do you know of any companies that are selling those individual bits and sprues that produce in plastic, rather than resin? Resin is significantly more conducive to that sort of mix-and-match sales.

I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Yeah that ain’t gonna happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Amusing part is that design is closer to the Skitarii than the Guard at this point!


Nah, aside from a big coat and a mask there’s not much similarity. This guy has his original legs, for a start, and the helmet is just that. There are other sheets of designs riffing on this basic torso design but for different regiments. I just love this particular one with the loaded backpack, cold weather gloves, Godwyn-pattern Lasgun. It’s quintessentially 40K.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 21:51:10


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Annandale, VA

 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

(snipped huge image)


Still rooting for these guys to see the light of day. They've got a gothic style that fits in perfectly with the 40K aesthetic, they're trademark-friendly, and they can cash in on the popularity of gas mask/greatcoat Guard (eg Krieg).

Leaving aside all the ideas of multi-build kits as discussed earlier in the thread, if our options were (instead of Cadians and Catachans) that Jes Goodwin concept and a modern, tacticool aesthetic, that'd provide both a stylized grimdark option and a generic modern alternative. It'd be abandoning the historical expies, but I get the sense that that's where GW is going in any case.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.


TBH I was going to engage with some of your ideas earlier in the thread, but the tone of 'decree from on high' is really obnoxious, and the sarcasm isn't doing any favors.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/16 21:55:00


 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 catbarf wrote:
Kayback wrote:
*PERSONALLY* I'd like to see IRL contemporary combat gear making it's way into the models. The Space Marines have Picitiny rails on the top of their bolter's now, so why not something like ALICE rigs if not MOLLE. Hell the 1980 era SADF M83 Battle Jacket and Chest Rig is almost 40 years old! We've got WWI trench, WWI desert, Crimean, Anglo-Zulu, Cold War-ish, Mongol and a myriad of other timezones, why not something more modern?

You can easily update the plastic sprues to include multiple options. Heck even something a basic as including multiple headgear into Cadian sprues would go a long way to improving the customization. As much as I have Space Marine shoulder pads, I'd really like to see the Cadian shoulder pads as a separate entity to the arms. Building a sleeker, yet still armoured torso would make for something different.


Yeah, some proper LBE would make a big difference to the kits and give them a more 'real' feel. It doesn't have to be super current-day cutting-edge; just something like an ALICE or RRV would make them a little more 'grounded' than just having random pouches to clip to the belt as in the current kits. It could still be stylized and distinctive.

I still think the 3rd Ed Storm Troopers would be a good reference point stylistically. They had LBE and a fairly 'modern' look, but their armor/helmets/weapons/respirators were original designs and not just straight translations of any historical influence. Scale back the armor from carapace to flak, drop the respirators and backpacks, and give them lasguns, and you would pretty much get some generic modern/sci-fi troops- not too far off from Cadians, really.

At this point, the 3E Stormtroopers are basically just passable as Guardsmen anyways. They're about as well protected as the GSC Neophytes are IMO. If you didn't tell someone they were supposed to be wearing Carapace Armor? They might not know. Their armor, helmets, and respirators were also patterned more after 1980s military gear(I wouldn't be shocked if the sculptors used references of the SAS storming of the embassy as inspiration)...just with a big ol' backpack and the wrist bracers attached.


I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.

The problem, IMO, is that even with as intelligent of sprue design as one could imagine? There's going to be some stuff that just is not doable without the 'online only' sprues being effectively a whole kit in and of themselves!

The most realistic thing, IMO, to hope for is that GW does a 'trifecta' of specialized setups. A 'scout' type, 'frontline soldiers', and 'heavy infantry'.

JohnnyHell wrote:Nah, aside from a big coat and a mask there’s not much similarity. This guy has his original legs, for a start, and the helmet is just that. There are other sheets of designs riffing on this basic torso design but for different regiments. I just love this particular one with the loaded backpack, cold weather gloves, Godwyn-pattern Lasgun. It’s quintessentially 40K.

The torso and shoulderpads match what the Skitarii(and the pilot for Canis Rex) have. There's also the 'trim' of those arrows which have been showing up on a lot of the AdMech(and Scion/Commissariat) models.
Spoiler:

   
Made in us
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I don-t want "Gothic" guard. Gothic can be saved for the sisters of battle, and a few of the more religious SM orgs.

I would like IG to stay with the theme of being war movies in space. The WWI-WWII vehicle aesthetic, the modernish infantry aesthetic.

That's what makes Guard attractive and not gakky marines.

Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 catbarf wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
The Guard models I would love to see are the Jes Goodwin concepts that never got made. This guy and his pals:

(snipped huge image)


Still rooting for these guys to see the light of day. They've got a gothic style that fits in perfectly with the 40K aesthetic, they're trademark-friendly, and they can cash in on the popularity of gas mask/greatcoat Guard (eg Krieg).

Leaving aside all the ideas of multi-build kits as discussed earlier in the thread, if our options were (instead of Cadians and Catachans) that Jes Goodwin concept and a modern, tacticool aesthetic, that'd provide both a stylized grimdark option and a generic modern alternative. It'd be abandoning the historical expies, but I get the sense that that's where GW is going in any case.

One of the things that bears consideration is that this kind of thing could still show up in AdMech or Tempestus. In both cases, they'd fit in well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Gee, it's almost like someone else has already suggested a lot of this stuff just more in-depth and actually relevant.


TBH I was going to engage with some of your ideas earlier in the thread, but the tone of 'decree from on high' is really obnoxious, and the sarcasm isn't doing any favors.

One of the biggest issues, personally, I have with text medium is that statement can come across as 'decrees from on high' or 'sarcasm'.

I've been involved in threads relating to this topic time and time again, and even when I just sit back and watch the thing that consistently remains clear is that nobody will be happy unless their Regiment is represented somehow. And it's not just relating to models--they want better rules, etc. That's why I said what I did relating to splitting things up rules-wise. It's why I am very insistent that Guard need to either be radically redesigned or a 'Primarising' needs to happen. There's too much baggage with the Regiments and the designs to keep just limping along like we are.
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block



South Africa

 catbarf wrote:


Do you know of any companies that are selling those individual bits and sprues that produce in plastic, rather than resin? Resin is significantly more conducive to that sort of mix-and-match sales.

I think GW would probably stay away from any business model that precludes them from selling a single, complete boxed set. Intelligent sprue design coupled with an online-only service to buy individual sprues could make the mix-and-match approach viable, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it actually happening.


Nope, all resin. But at one stage Baneblades and Thunderhawks were only resin models too.

A "that's how we've always done it" argument isn't always the best way forwards. The fact other companies produce these items, not matter the medium, shows there is a market.

Being able to walk into a shop and buy a whole army off the shelf may have some advantages, but how many people actually do that?


KBK 
   
Made in us
[MOD]
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.
I didn't say every single one did, just that they do all too often.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.
Sure, though that said, models lines can change and be adapted (we've seen that with many GW lines, including IG such as Cadians and Stormtroopers), as long as it's done well, it's not the end of the world, and I also noted it could be for different regiments altogether, there's plenty of those to explore.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.
I can't comment on the ordering, and I don't know what are mandated purchases by GW for different stocking levels, I can only comment on what I've actually seen when they have appeared on shelves, though these days mostly I don't see them period.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.
Yes they have been doing art, but I'm not seeing any art that's particularly radically different from what we had in previous editions, aside from just being different artists I'm not sure what shifts in concept I'm missing, if you have an example to point out I'm all for exploring it, however again I'm not sure the vibe in general has the draw that it did back in the late 80's/early 90's.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:

Except when they don't? There were slews of heads across the Empire range that were just gorgeous. It just seems like people always remember the bad ones.
I didn't say every single one did, just that they do all too often.

Valhallans and Krieg have different designs for coats. It doesn't work.
Vostroyans additionally are closer to Steel Legion than they are any of those.
Sure, though that said, models lines can change and be adapted (we've seen that with many GW lines, including IG such as Cadians and Stormtroopers), as long as it's done well, it's not the end of the world, and I also noted it could be for different regiments altogether, there's plenty of those to explore.

Worth mentioning that Scions are a much, much better concepting of the 'Stormtrooper' design than the existing ones were. They actually look like they are an Imperial entity rather than just some local variant.

If you have any shops with them, then someone ordered them. They aren't a regular stock item and haven't been for almost a decade.
I can't comment on the ordering, and I don't know what are mandated purchases by GW for different stocking levels, I can only comment on what I've actually seen when they have appeared on shelves, though these days mostly I don't see them period.

Mandated purchases wouldn't include items that are Direct Only--which Catachans are. The notation of "someone ordered them" refers to someone having either placed the order themselves and had it shipped to store(if at a GW shop) or had their local shop place the order...or there might just be someone in charge of ordering who didn't know the kit and was using a third party distributor rather than a trade account.

As for "what to do with them"? Look in the fricking codex. They clearly have been doing art and concepting on the Cadians and Catachans.
Yes they have been doing art, but I'm not seeing any art that's particularly radically different from what we had in previous editions, aside from just being different artists I'm not sure what shifts in concept I'm missing, if you have an example to point out I'm all for exploring it, however again I'm not sure the vibe in general has the draw that it did back in the late 80's/early 90's.

With regards to the art? It's sitting right there on page 19 for the Cadians and 21 for Catachans in the Guard codex for 8th edition. There's also (arguably) page 26 for the Catachans(Armageddon Ork Hunters) and pages 28 and 29 for Cadian-esque designs. Notable shifts for the Cadians are that the armor is bulkier, with the helmets being slimmed down a bit more. Catachans have been seeing armor plates added to them in some places or the vests bulked up to make it clear that there's plates in them.

The models that I've been pointing to are worth mentioning as well. If GW's doing them for events(Ripper Jackson is for store openings, the Colonel was intended to be a store anniversary model--hence the 10k physically produced)? They've got people working on them for general sale as well.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/16 22:46:26


 
   
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Kayback wrote:
Nope, all resin. But at one stage Baneblades and Thunderhawks were only resin models too.

A "that's how we've always done it" argument isn't always the best way forwards. The fact other companies produce these items, not matter the medium, shows there is a market.

Being able to walk into a shop and buy a whole army off the shelf may have some advantages, but how many people actually do that?


I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, and require a (also very expensive) injection mold machine to use. With resin, you can just grab bits off the shelf as needed and cast whatever's low in stock. With plastic, a kit is composed of one, sometimes two, maybe three molds at most (each sprue in a box is typically half a mold) and requires time allocation in your production cycle, so if demand is high for one sprue and not the others this becomes a logistical problem.

I get that demand is there. I absolutely do not believe that there is sufficient demand to warrant separating out kits by sprue and selling them individually. I'd sooner expect a return of the old bits service, a niche which third-party resellers have been providing ever since GW discontinued theirs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
And it's not just relating to models--they want better rules, etc. That's why I said what I did relating to splitting things up rules-wise. It's why I am very insistent that Guard need to either be radically redesigned or a 'Primarising' needs to happen. There's too much baggage with the Regiments and the designs to keep just limping along like we are.


I do understand where you're coming from, and I think 30K gives us a good reference point.

In 30K, you have access to the Solar Auxilia list, which is a standardized and 'modern' force with a distinct style and TOE. Or, you can take the Imperial Cults & Militia list, which is a catch-all for basically any normal human force.

I could see GW doing something similar in 40K: Guilliman reforms the Imperial Army with a new force organization, new units, and new sculpts, while a second list exists to accommodate the non-reformed forces.

Not commenting on whether I think it would be a good approach or not, but it would be consistent with their product line revisions to date. That said, I doubt a total overhaul and unified standardization is in the cards, given the Catachan sculpts that just released. You'd think if GW was building up to a Guard overhaul and re-release, we'd be seeing characters with a single, consistent aesthetic that was either 'generic Imperial' or something new, rather than as stylized as the Catachans.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/17 00:34:02


 
   
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Canada

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don-t want "Gothic" guard. Gothic can be saved for the sisters of battle, and a few of the more religious SM orgs.

I would like IG to stay with the theme of being war movies in space. The WWI-WWII vehicle aesthetic, the modernish infantry aesthetic.

That's what makes Guard attractive and not gakky marines.


This may be the course to chart. They need to have an aesthetic that is distinctive yet recognizable. And not something that Warlord Games already produces. For GW the juice must be worth the squeeze, so I doubt the vehicles will change. And really, the IG has always been about the vehicles.

I pulled out my 2nd Ed IG Codex (which cost me $15 in 1996 - on sale from $26 win!) and the Catachan image on page 75 is absolutely Arnie from Predator. I have that model and he still fights on my tabletop alongside Schaefer. I think that 1998 was the highwater mark for IG/AM design. We had all the lines with all the models. Then those plastic Catachans came.

I do like my Scions, and I could get behind a 1920s vision of the future (but not Admech) Astra Militarum grounded in a WW1 vibe with just a little bit of Arnie from Predator. Easy! And a hint of the Colonial Marines from Aliens would be nice. With a Greatcoat version for those so inclined.

All you have to do is fire three rounds a minute, and stand 
   
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With respect to the codex art, I think most of that is just different artist's style relative to those that worked on older books, as opposed to an intentional reconceptualization, and the differences to me don't appear to be particularly huge and certainly no more variant from existing ranges relative to the other Regiments also portrayed in the book. The new Exclusive models for Catachans certainly have better scuplting than the plastic kits, but command character models also always have extra gubbins and fancier stuff than general Troops do. When GW redid Marbo not too long ago, he looks much more like the current basic troops in terms of armor (or lack thereof) and look. I think if they did all the Catachans with armor like the powerfist character has, it might work better, but I think that's more of a distinguishing thing for that Character, and ultimately, I still think the biggest problem with them is that the 80's overmuscled US Action Hero look just doesn't have the draw it once did. I think almost everyone picking up those models are doing so to put on a shelf for collector purposes as opposed to really being into the Catachan vibe, though I freely admit that could just be me.

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The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
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A new IG aesthetic to replace the Cadians? My suggestion would be the Murmillo gladiator of Imperial Rome as a base. Just the helmet and breastplate (should simplify the breastplate as molded muscle cuirasses are a Blood Angel aesthetic), maybe kneepads instead of greaves. Rest of the uniform should be conventional contemporary BDU based. Don't know if a bullpup configuration works for lasguns, but it gets away from the current lasgun design.

If GW doesn't want to go too far afield, they could use the Steel Legion, or as pointed out earlier, the Chem-dogs. I think the suggestion of contrasting the Marines (the Knights of Christ in SPACE!!!) with scruffy Chem-dogs is a good one. The Imperium has a caste system: exploit that look.

As for Catachans, I have not seen an entire army of them fielded since 3rd ed. when the plastic boxes were first sold. Otherwise, it has been all plastic Cadians.

TangoTwoBravo also brings up a good point. The new aesthetic has to be different enough that potential customers don't buy Warlord historicals and just add bits. If I did start an IG army, I'd do Praetorians, and I'd compare Perry and Warlord Games Zulu war British Infantry to find which gets me the most for my money, then get Victoria Miniatures bits to tune and trim. (I do have some of the original metal Praetorian HW teams and special weapons. Would have gone further but was gifted with a fair amount of marine kits, so marines it was.)

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 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
A new IG aesthetic to replace the Cadians? My suggestion would be the Murmillo gladiator of Imperial Rome as a base. Just the helmet and breastplate (should simplify the breastplate as molded muscle cuirasses are a Blood Angel aesthetic), maybe kneepads instead of greaves. Rest of the uniform should be conventional contemporary BDU based. Don't know if a bullpup configuration works for lasguns, but it gets away from the current lasgun design.

If GW doesn't want to go too far afield, they could use the Steel Legion, or as pointed out earlier, the Chem-dogs. I think the suggestion of contrasting the Marines (the Knights of Christ in SPACE!!!) with scruffy Chem-dogs is a good one. The Imperium has a caste system: exploit that look.

As for Catachans, I have not seen an entire army of them fielded since 3rd ed. when the plastic boxes were first sold. Otherwise, it has been all plastic Cadians.

TangoTwoBravo also brings up a good point. The new aesthetic has to be different enough that potential customers don't buy Warlord historicals and just add bits. If I did start an IG army, I'd do Praetorians, and I'd compare Perry and Warlord Games Zulu war British Infantry to find which gets me the most for my money, then get Victoria Miniatures bits to tune and trim. (I do have some of the original metal Praetorian HW teams and special weapons. Would have gone further but was gifted with a fair amount of marine kits, so marines it was.)


My first guardsmen were Catachan, so at one time my army was an army of catachans with green army men helping out. But Catachans couldn't be conveniently impulse bought after school at the local store, so now there's like a platoon of Catachans and a lot of Cadians.

There's a local guy who has a whole army of Catachans though. They're pretty badly in need of a re-vamp, but they have the most fun characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/17 03:51:12


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
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I would suggest that the boxes should contain more than 10 models. Maybe 25, so that you could build 2 infantry squads and a command. To keep the size down this would have to fit into 3-4 sprues. Then the models should probably be mostly monopose, preferably a mix of male and female sculpts. I would prefer if some popular regiments could recieve a full box each, like steel legion, tallarns, valhallans rather than mixing bits for regiments. Make them proper with no real concept changes.

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 catbarf wrote:


I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, .


I do believe I specifically mentioned the high cost of plastic sprue molds, so I am fully aware of the high cost of plastic sprue molds. Everyone's suggestion requires new molds.


By revamping how the models are molded and sold will improve the Guard kit.

Personally with the advancement of the timeline I don't think the regression of the tech level of the IG into barbarianism or chem-dog is the correct way forwards. You may as well field an army of gun-servitors or Khornate cultists. I do think there is plenty of scope in the lore for Chem dogs, you could even justify it in the current timeline with the argument resources are being diverted to Primaris, the need to artificially improve the soldiers to be better fits for the new Marines and such but then you're just going to AoS most IG armies. Revamping the *IG* itself is a different discussion to what would improve the current IG models.

More heads, more guns, more torsos, basically more choice for customization. But keeping box set prices down. That'll require changing how they are made and sold.

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Kayback wrote:
 catbarf wrote:


I think maybe you're not recognizing the differences in production economies between resin and plastic production. Resin sprues are small, limited to only a couple of parts at most, and can be cast by hand on demand without too much trouble. Plastic sprues are all-encompassing, cost anywhere from $25,000-100,000 apiece, .


I do believe I specifically mentioned the high cost of plastic sprue molds, so I am fully aware of the high cost of plastic sprue molds. Everyone's suggestion requires new molds.


By revamping how the models are molded and sold will improve the Guard kit.

Personally with the advancement of the timeline I don't think the regression of the tech level of the IG into barbarianism or chem-dog is the correct way forwards. You may as well field an army of gun-servitors or Khornate cultists. I do think there is plenty of scope in the lore for Chem dogs, you could even justify it in the current timeline with the argument resources are being diverted to Primaris, the need to artificially improve the soldiers to be better fits for the new Marines and such but then you're just going to AoS most IG armies. Revamping the *IG* itself is a different discussion to what would improve the current IG models.

More heads, more guns, more torsos, basically more choice for customization. But keeping box set prices down. That'll require changing how they are made and sold.


We need something new, and modern - so how about IG players now have to mail-order their entire army?

Maybe they can use a printed catalog and paper order forms too?

Like I get we're wishlisting here, but really the trend of GW is exactly opposite of this - going for impulse buys of detailed but monopose miniatures.
   
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I’d welcome new IG models, a revamp if Cadians and Catachans would be cool, as well as some representation for other Regiments. I don’t really see individual sprues etc getting sold though as has been mentioned in previous posts, the logistics/cost of plastic molds seems to preclude it, especially when opportunity cost is taken int account.

That being said, in the spirit of wishlisting, it seems to me that the IG line is primarily based on WW1 and WW2 real world armies and pop culture action movies of the 80s/90s: Predator, Aliens, Commando, Rambo and Starship Troopers in particular spring to mind.

If the army was to be launched now, referencing current pop culture from the past decade or so what big movies etc do you think would be the source of inspiration? That might be the direction needed for any new kit revamps, to draw in new players with familiar touchstones.

I’m not sure I can think of anything as iconic as Predator/Aliens/Commando/Rambo were in the 90s, but that probably my age.

Would be interested in hearing suggestions on this!!
   
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Interesting point aash. Pop culture icons today seems to be mostly superheroes wich are not applicable to imperial guard. War movies and such really dont produce action heroes anymore. Also gw seems to move away from pop culture references in their new products as they want more copyright friendly models.

However I could see them making guard into either steam punk or more generic sci fi soldiers if they were to redesign them.

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Gitdakka wrote:
Interesting point aash. Pop culture icons today seems to be mostly superheroes wich are not applicable to imperial guard. War movies and such really dont produce action heroes anymore. Also gw seems to move away from pop culture references in their new products as they want more copyright friendly models.

However I could see them making guard into either steam punk or more generic sci fi soldiers if they were to redesign them.


I don’t see them going in the steampunk direction for IG, though it would be cool. I think that niche is more in the wheelhouse of AdMech / Skitarii.
   
 
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