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TinyLegions wrote:
I'm not going to add more to the above, you better learn this early, don't let GW or anyone else derail your pleasure in the hobby. If it bothers you that much, search the internet for a bits company that sells what you want. They are harder to find these days, but you can buy the exact piece that you are looking for. in the good ole days of ten years ago you would have three sellers on E-Bay that sold all kinds bits.

So because GW are a bunch of greedy Gits i have to pay extra money for extra bits and shipping from a third party company to receive those bits i should have access to from the get go?
I usually do my deals at my local gaming store. i dont pay for shipping there.


Im right now lacking 1 big choppa and i have no bits right now that can make up for that. And im not about to buy a nob biker to get a damn big choppa. Nob Bikers are terrible for your ork army.

I mean, i have to buy weapons from Kromlech (its a good company) but i shouldnt have to.

If the damn rule sheet that comes with the box states i can equip my Deff dreads with 4x Big shootas, by all means there should be 4 big shootas in the box. At the very least they could sell spare bits like weapons and such like Kromlech does.

This is just corporate greed and they deserve having been stagnate for the last 10 years economic wise.

Greed is what this is. Not very customer minded.

You know what Kromlech did when i got some wrong bits i ordered? they send the correct bits and allowed me to pick a model for free of my choosing, so i went with a model to 92 Euros. and ofc the shipping was free too.
Now thats god damn customer service right there.

GW could learn some from Kromlech.

Yeah GW is a pain in the ass with these kinds of things.
We shouldn’t have to buy vanguard veteran boxes for space marine weapons. If they sold things like thunder hammers, chainswords, relic blades as bits, it would be much easier to make our ideal loadout.

Though they want us to buy kits just for the parts

It used to be a lot worse, when I started in 1998 they had Bitz-order for individual metal bits back then but they also just flat out didn't make some wargear or weapon options. In the rules you could have a thunder hammer and storm shield to a SM Captain, but they didn't actually make THammers or SShields for power armor back then, you had to cut apart metal terminator arms and convert it, same for Lightning Claws on power armor. Wanted to take a Signum? They don't make it, don't even describe it, make something up. Extra Armor for Rhinos? Cut up some plasticard, I guess. Combi-weapons? No combi weapons. Iron Halo? The most important piece of wargear that EVERY commander might as well have just come with to the point that they DID just come with it in later editions? There was no Iron Halo.

Heck, they didn't even make Ork Battlewagons at the time, you had to convert your own. From scratch.

Nowadays you can convert stuff, or bits order from ebay bits resellers, or order resin parts from 3rd party companies, or 3D prints from Shapeways. Honestly the problem nowadays is GW has completely removed almost all options on figures if it isn't included in the box anymore.

Beardedragon wrote:

You know what Kromlech did when i got some wrong bits i ordered? they send the correct bits and allowed me to pick a model for free of my choosing, so i went with a model to 92 Euros.

Funny you should complain about greed.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

You know what Kromlech did when i got some wrong bits i ordered? they send the correct bits and allowed me to pick a model for free of my choosing, so i went with a model to 92 Euros.

Funny you should complain about greed.

I dont see your point. I specifically said i didnt need to get anything gifted for me but they insisted. so i found a model. I then went with a 29 euros clanking behemoth model but it wasnt on stock.

then i found the 4 goblin tanks squadron model and they said they had them on stock and they would happily give them to me.

On multiple times did i state i didnt need anything but they insisted.

Thats not greed from my side.

Beardedragon wrote:
[My] package never came with all the options i could make that unit. [...] How come, GW does that?

It's a combination of two things:

(1) Molds for plastic models are phenomenally expensive. I've heard them described as costing as much as a house. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (USD), I think? Especially for GW's high-quality molds. Then they get used for a long time, like a decade or more. So the designers don't have a specific ruleset they're shooting for. They really just make a bunch of options on the sprue that seem cool from a hobby standpoint.

(2) For GW, the rules come last. First, the designers come up with a model concept and sculpt it. Then they give it to the lore-writers who give it a (copyrightable) name and background. Last they give it to the rules writers who give it a statline and game rules. And since some of the most prominent designers like Jes Goodwin don't ever play the game (Darren Latham teases Jes about it in this interview), you can end up with wierd disconnects between the model kits and the game they're supposed to be made for. "Yes, Jes, it looks cool, but what does it DO?"

Personally, I'd prefer kits where you only have to make aesthetic choices when building them, and no game-impactful ones. If a unit can have different loadouts with different rules, I'd prefer kits to have enough parts to build ALL of them simultaneously. Then when you go to play a game you just leave a couple models on the shelf for the options you're not taking. That'd mean kits would have fewer options that they do now and/or some options would look different but play the same.

 NephMakes wrote:
(1) Molds for plastic models are phenomenally expensive. I've heard them described as costing as much as a house. Hundreds of thousands of dollars (USD), I think? Especially for GW's high-quality molds. Then they get used for a long time, like a decade or more. So the designers don't have a specific ruleset they're shooting for. They really just make a bunch of options on the sprue that seem cool from a hobby standpoint.

Injection molds for small production (i.e. upgrade sprue) will run exponentially less than revising existing injection molds.

GW has no excuse not to (because of the exorbitant demand and the market that is currently captured by 3rd party vendors). They just ARENT.

From a business standpoint, it will be worth far more money if they shifted the resources being spent on maintaining their failcast lines and redirect it to upgrade sprue business.

From the quality of the failcasts, I suspect this is done with small batch rubber molds - these molds don't last many casts and needs to be remade. I imagine GW isn't making any money on failcasts. They're likely losing money on these productions.

Plus, it doesn't cost HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars, and even if it does, it's chump change investment for a multi-million dollar business that will make back its investment in few years.

AND, in worst case scenario where the upgrade sprue just doesn't sell, they can always change the rules to make these upgrades overpowered to boost sales.

 Kalamadea wrote:
It used to be a lot worse, when I started in 1998 they had Bitz-order for individual metal bits back then but they also just flat out didn't make some wargear or weapon options. In the rules you could have a thunder hammer and storm shield to a SM Captain, but they didn't actually make THammers or SShields for power armor back then, you had to cut apart metal terminator arms and convert it, same for Lightning Claws on power armor. Wanted to take a Signum? They don't make it, don't even describe it, make something up. Extra Armor for Rhinos? Cut up some plasticard, I guess. Combi-weapons? No combi weapons. Iron Halo? The most important piece of wargear that EVERY commander might as well have just come with to the point that they DID just come with it in later editions? There was no Iron Halo.

Heck, they didn't even make Ork Battlewagons at the time, you had to convert your own. From scratch.

Nowadays you can convert stuff, or bits order from ebay bits resellers, or order resin parts from 3rd party companies, or 3D prints from Shapeways. Honestly the problem nowadays is GW has completely removed almost all options on figures if it isn't included in the box anymore.

Mate? that sounds super rough. I probably wouldnt have collected warhammer 40k back then if i had to go through that.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Kalamadea wrote:
It used to be a lot worse, when I started in 1998 they had Bitz-order for individual metal bits back then but they also just flat out didn't make some wargear or weapon options. In the rules you could have a thunder hammer and storm shield to a SM Captain, but they didn't actually make THammers or SShields for power armor back then, you had to cut apart metal terminator arms and convert it, same for Lightning Claws on power armor. Wanted to take a Signum? They don't make it, don't even describe it, make something up. Extra Armor for Rhinos? Cut up some plasticard, I guess. Combi-weapons? No combi weapons. Iron Halo? The most important piece of wargear that EVERY commander might as well have just come with to the point that they DID just come with it in later editions? There was no Iron Halo.

Heck, they didn't even make Ork Battlewagons at the time, you had to convert your own. From scratch.

Nowadays you can convert stuff, or bits order from ebay bits resellers, or order resin parts from 3rd party companies, or 3D prints from Shapeways. Honestly the problem nowadays is GW has completely removed almost all options on figures if it isn't included in the box anymore.

Mate? that sounds super rough. I probably wouldnt have collected warhammer 40k back then if i had to go through that.

We still had fun. A little less care about WYSWYG. GW was also a lot more supportive of converting, and there were articles and suggestions in WD. But you needed to know that if you wanted combi melta to needed to get the bit from the BA captain, c-plasma was from a DA, etc. The basic tac squad came with just a ML/Flamer, but you could get the other heavies with the Devs, and the other specials could be found in metal blisters, or you could get a plastic meltagun on the SW upgrade frame.

But some days you just needed to roll up your sleeves and cut up and mod metal models, which was an interesting experience.

In those days there were a TON of options in the books. You had piles of wargear and full armories that you could equip your army with. Heck, there were whole units without models. There was no expectation that GW could possibly make kits for everything, so we did what we could with what we had.

And it was a blast.

Beardedragon wrote:

 Kalamadea wrote:
It used to be a lot worse, when I started in 1998 they had Bitz-order for individual metal bits back then but they also just flat out didn't make some wargear or weapon options. In the rules you could have a thunder hammer and storm shield to a SM Captain, but they didn't actually make THammers or SShields for power armor back then, you had to cut apart metal terminator arms and convert it, same for Lightning Claws on power armor. Wanted to take a Signum? They don't make it, don't even describe it, make something up. Extra Armor for Rhinos? Cut up some plasticard, I guess. Combi-weapons? No combi weapons. Iron Halo? The most important piece of wargear that EVERY commander might as well have just come with to the point that they DID just come with it in later editions? There was no Iron Halo.

Heck, they didn't even make Ork Battlewagons at the time, you had to convert your own. From scratch.

Nowadays you can convert stuff, or bits order from ebay bits resellers, or order resin parts from 3rd party companies, or 3D prints from Shapeways. Honestly the problem nowadays is GW has completely removed almost all options on figures if it isn't included in the box anymore.

Mate? that sounds super rough. I probably wouldnt have collected warhammer 40k back then if i had to go through that.

You have no idea. 3rd edition ork codex had half units/options that were available only by converting or scratch building. Many other had kits with limited bitz, way more limited than now. Just think about the old metal nobz kit: 5 dudes, 1 pk, 1 banner, 2 sluggas, 3 choppas, 3 TL shootas. No spared weapons. Price higher than current one, but 20 years ago, so way higher.

To be honest at that time I picked up orks because I loved kustomize, kitbash, convert and scratch build stuff and orks had just got a ton of new shiny releases in those days but playing competitive games with orks was flat out impossible without proxying a lot.

shmvo wrote:
Considering they didn't even patch their rules post launch until 8th edition, I think it's pretty obvious that them paying even the bare minimum attention to the gaming aspect is pretty recent. It's a mistake to think of it as GW doing X, or GW enforcing Y; it's many different sub-departments with different agendas.

Funny, you must've missed that period when at one point the only relevant parts in the 3rd ed rulebook were the hit and wound tables...

GW have always patched their game rules post launch. It was only in 8th that it was more accelerated than in the past.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

You know what Kromlech did when i got some wrong bits i ordered? they send the correct bits and allowed me to pick a model for free of my choosing, so i went with a model to 92 Euros.

Funny you should complain about greed.

I dont see your point. I specifically said i didnt need to get anything gifted for me but they insisted. so i found a model. I then went with a 29 euros clanking behemoth model but it wasnt on stock.

then i found the 4 goblin tanks squadron model and they said they had them on stock and they would happily give them to me.

On multiple times did i state i didnt need anything but they insisted.

Thats not greed from my side.

I'm guessing English is not your first language, so I'll cut you some slack, but your first post seems to imply that you took advantage of their generosity by getting a 92 euro mini for free, but that post above contradicts that. If it genuinely is the former that is why Blackfang is calling you out on blatant hypocrisy in your post.

 Grimtuff wrote:

shmvo wrote:
Considering they didn't even patch their rules post launch until 8th edition, I think it's pretty obvious that them paying even the bare minimum attention to the gaming aspect is pretty recent. It's a mistake to think of it as GW doing X, or GW enforcing Y; it's many different sub-departments with different agendas.

Funny, you must've missed that period when at one point the only relevant parts in the 3rd ed rulebook were the hit and wound tables...

GW have always patched their game rules post launch. It was only in 8th that it was more accelerated than in the past.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

You know what Kromlech did when i got some wrong bits i ordered? they send the correct bits and allowed me to pick a model for free of my choosing, so i went with a model to 92 Euros.

Funny you should complain about greed.

I dont see your point. I specifically said i didnt need to get anything gifted for me but they insisted. so i found a model. I then went with a 29 euros clanking behemoth model but it wasnt on stock.

then i found the 4 goblin tanks squadron model and they said they had them on stock and they would happily give them to me.

On multiple times did i state i didnt need anything but they insisted.

Thats not greed from my side.

I'm guessing English is not your first language, so I'll cut you some slack, but your first post seems to imply that you took advantage of their generosity by getting a 92 euro mini for free, but that post above contradicts that. If it genuinely is the former that is why Blackfang is calling you out on blatant hypocrisy in your post.

I would assume the danish flag next to my profile name would be a great indicator of me not being an english speaker.

In the first post i made i simply explained as short as i could what happened. I wanted to point out customer service difference and that guy took note of something i did not intend to put focus on. So he forced me to elaborate on the whole situation because of it. If i wanted to put focus on myself and how selfless i am and yadda yadda i would have put more effort in to explaining how i didnt want any models at all to begin with. But again, that was not the point, so i cut it out. I only wanted to show how much Kromlech cares about their customers.

Maybe he should ask for more details rather than calling someone a hypocrite. I obviously left out a lot of material because that was not the focus of my story. How customer minded GW is, was my focus.

Some people simply judge too quickly.

For some kits, they really should come with all the options.
AT knights are a good example.
You now get an excess of parts that you really don’t need but still only get one of each of the three ranged weapon options.
This for me is something that should have all the options in the kit.

Other kits though, it would just push the price to insane levels.
Devastator squads are a great example here.
People would expect 4 of every single option plus all options for the sgt.
you now have more components in that kit for their weapons than actual parts required for assembly.
The price would then jump dramatically as they added another 2-3 sprues to add all of the weapon options.


You then have the flip side to this.
People complain they want all options available and GW simply cut the options and pull an AoS.
You then get restricted on unit choice to what’s in the actual box.


Some kits it’s very viable due to low options to begin with.
For other kits it would double (or more) the size of the kit, the price would then move to reflect this.


Out of the two ways though I see GW simply limiting units as for them it’s the easier and cheaper option.

Beardedragon wrote:


I would assume the danish flag next to my profile name would be a great indicator of me not being an english speaker.

In the first post i made i simply explained as short as i could what happened. I wanted to point out customer service difference and that guy took note of something i did not intend to put focus on. So he forced me to elaborate on the whole situation because of it. If i wanted to put focus on myself and how selfless i am and yadda yadda i would have put more effort in to explaining how i didnt want any models at all to begin with. But again, that was not the point, so i cut it out. I only wanted to show how much Kromlech cares about their customers.

Maybe he should ask for more details rather than calling someone a hypocrite. I obviously left out a lot of material because that was not the focus of my story. How customer minded GW is, was my focus.

Some people simply judge too quickly.

Then you need to elaborate. Ranting about greed whilst simultaneously implying you exploited the gratitude of a company for a 92 Euro mini is textbook hypocrisy.

So, did you or didn't you? As the latter post contradicts that.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:


I would assume the danish flag next to my profile name would be a great indicator of me not being an english speaker.

In the first post i made i simply explained as short as i could what happened. I wanted to point out customer service difference and that guy took note of something i did not intend to put focus on. So he forced me to elaborate on the whole situation because of it. If i wanted to put focus on myself and how selfless i am and yadda yadda i would have put more effort in to explaining how i didnt want any models at all to begin with. But again, that was not the point, so i cut it out. I only wanted to show how much Kromlech cares about their customers.

Maybe he should ask for more details rather than calling someone a hypocrite. I obviously left out a lot of material because that was not the focus of my story. How customer minded GW is, was my focus.

Some people simply judge too quickly.

Then you need to elaborate. Ranting about greed whilst simultaneously implying you exploited the gratitude of a company for a 92 Euro mini is textbook hypocrisy.

So, did you or didn't you? As the latter post contradicts that.

what are you even saying. i already elaborated in the post i made afterwards. you already have your answer. Nothing ive written contradicts anything, ive literally elaborated in the post i made afterwards, giving a few more details.

It might be possible to get the understanding that i ripped Kromlech of a package, but its also quite possible to understand what i wrote as them being generous, not me demanding. And since both things are possible, what ive written is thus an elaboration, not a contradiction.

It also doesnt matter so lets leave it at that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jackal90 wrote:
For some kits, they really should come with all the options.
AT knights are a good example.
You now get an excess of parts that you really don’t need but still only get one of each of the three ranged weapon options.
This for me is something that should have all the options in the kit.

Other kits though, it would just push the price to insane levels.
Devastator squads are a great example here.
People would expect 4 of every single option plus all options for the sgt.
you now have more components in that kit for their weapons than actual parts required for assembly.
The price would then jump dramatically as they added another 2-3 sprues to add all of the weapon options.


You then have the flip side to this.
People complain they want all options available and GW simply cut the options and pull an AoS.
You then get restricted on unit choice to what’s in the actual box.


Some kits it’s very viable due to low options to begin with.
For other kits it would double (or more) the size of the kit, the price would then move to reflect this.


Out of the two ways though I see GW simply limiting units as for them it’s the easier and cheaper option.

I think a lot of the problems could be solved by making spare part bits sales.

Like a primaris bits sale with different weapons and the same for Orks and everyone else. That way they can get away with keeping their boxes as they are, but also earn some money from spare parts that people are inevitably going to buy

The issue then is that they would need to make an absolute ton of different “upgrade” packs as it were and that will still push the price up further.

Making those would require several new moulds for something that they would likely see as insignificant and too costly for its value.

Selling just parts from sprues instead would be overly time consuming and require yet more storage space.

Jackal90 wrote:
The issue then is that they would need to make an absolute ton of different “upgrade” packs as it were and that will still push the price up further.

Making those would require several new moulds for something that they would likely see as insignificant and too costly for its value.

Selling just parts from sprues instead would be overly time consuming and require yet more storage space.

Hmm.. yea i guess you might be right. I mean i see solutions but of course it requires GW to do a few things. Certain models arent that hindered, but some are.

Jackal90 wrote:
The issue then is that they would need to make an absolute ton of different “upgrade” packs as it were and that will still push the price up further.

Making those would require several new moulds for something that they would likely see as insignificant and too costly for its value.

If the upgrade packs are as specific as the primaris upgrade packs, yes, it's going to be cost prohibitive. Better route would be to introduce 'chapter specific' or 'faction specific' upgrade packs in the manner of ravenwing upgrade sprue, I'd think it would be a worthwhile endeavor.

For example, the vehicle upgrade sprue used to contain parts for many different factions in a single sprue. This could work too IMO.

 skchsan wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
The issue then is that they would need to make an absolute ton of different “upgrade” packs as it were and that will still push the price up further.

Making those would require several new moulds for something that they would likely see as insignificant and too costly for its value.

If the upgrade packs are as specific as the primaris upgrade packs, yes, it's going to be cost prohibitive. Better route would be to introduce 'chapter specific' or 'faction specific' upgrade packs in the manner of ravenwing upgrade sprue, I'd think it would be a worthwhile endeavor.

For example, the vehicle upgrade sprue used to contain parts for many different factions in a single sprue. This could work too IMO.

You mean the one they still sell?

Ugh. It's ORKS. Be creative. You're collecting the wrong race if you think you should have everything handed to you.

GW came up with something about "no model no rules" philosophy... but then give you pages and pages of relics which give powerful rules, but dont require any special bits of modelling/wargear, as well as there being arbitrary instances where they sell you stuff that you cant use or whatever.. So yeah its just another example where GW can make mornic business decision but keep raking in milions of profits..

I do miss the bits ordering service... :(

However as an ork player I think yo are by far in the best converting postion out of all the faction. You can rip a models arm off rumage in your desk bin for discarded rubbish add some glue/scissors/greenstuff and you have the exact weapon you need and nobody will bat an eye lid.