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Something that really struck a nerve with me when I started collecting warhammer 40k a few months ago, was that when i got a unit package, that package never came with all the options i could make that unit. And theres no otherwise service of getting additional bits from GWs side at least, barring from buying another package.


For instance, lets say you want 5 Nobz with Big Choppas. well thats too bad, because the package only gives you 4.

Say you want a Deff Dread with 4 Dread saws. Too bad because the package only gives you 2, and 2 additional Dread Klaws. Meaning, you need to buy 2 Deff dread packages just to field 1 Deff dread with 4 Kill Saws.

How come, GW does that? it seems like a super gakky economics policy. Specially with the Big Choppa thing for Nobz and the like. Why on earth wouldnt they fit at least 1 more Big Choppa to finish the set? If you go for a Nobz mob of 10, that would mean 8 of them have Big Choppas, and the remaining 2 dont.

I wouldnt mind this way of building packages from GWs side if they actually sold spare bits from their regular website or regular spare bits were easy to come by but they dont.

It feels like a really greedy practice

MONEY!

I do wish they had better bits kits for sale though.

Kayback wrote:
MONEY!

I do wish they had better bits kits for sale though.

exlusivly this.

GW is not a game company, it is a miniture company. Their primary goal is to sell boxes and lots of boxes.

Rules change. Look at the Index entries for Orks - Dreads & Kans only had one type of CC weapon.

GW should have the weapons on a separate sprue to the bodies (and they used to do this).

Be careful what you wish for.

Most of the primaris range comes with all the options. Did you want so something special for the sarge? For intercessors, where they sell chapter upgrades you can, everyone else is out of luck. Despite the fact those same upgrades would work on hellblasters. And captains can only have very specific gear, based on the models they sell.

It if fr more likely that they will cut options from the codex rather then give more in the box. Or just encourage kitbashing, which was a core part of the hobby for years.

Sad, but the state of the hobby.

beast_gts wrote:
Rules change. Look at the Index entries for Orks - Dreads & Kans only had one type of CC weapon.

GW should have the weapons on a separate sprue to the bodies (and they used to do this).

The most annoying example about orks kits and wargear that comes with them is definitely the Killa Kanz box. 3 Kanz and 4 different ranged weapons when ALL ork players, always in any edition, want to play with a single type of weapon per squad. It means that even buying 3 box of Kanz the player would have 9 Kanz, which are a lot of models for a niche unit, if it goes WYSIWYG he could only field units of 3 kanz with the same weapon. Unless converting stuff or proxying, fielding a single max unit of kanz with appropriate wargear means buying 6 boxes of those and having 18 models in total, lol. For a unit that is almost impossible to field in multiple units (so 5 or 6 at most out of those 18), even in a casual but still fairly optimized list.

Drukhari scourges are in the same boat. They need 4 boxes and 20 models in total just to play the min squad of 5 dudes all with the same weapon.

Beardedragon wrote:
Something that really struck a nerve with me when I started collecting warhammer 40k a few months ago, was that when i got a unit package, that package never came with all the options i could make that unit. And theres no otherwise service of getting additional bits from GWs side at least, barring from buying another package.


For instance, lets say you want 5 Nobz with Big Choppas. well thats too bad, because the package only gives you 4.

Say you want a Deff Dread with 4 Dread saws. Too bad because the package only gives you 2, and 2 additional Dread Klaws. Meaning, you need to buy 2 Deff dread packages just to field 1 Deff dread with 4 Kill Saws.

How come, GW does that? it seems like a super gakky economics policy. Specially with the Big Choppa thing for Nobz and the like. Why on earth wouldnt they fit at least 1 more Big Choppa to finish the set? If you go for a Nobz mob of 10, that would mean 8 of them have Big Choppas, and the remaining 2 dont.

I wouldnt mind this way of building packages from GWs side if they actually sold spare bits from their regular website or regular spare bits were easy to come by but they dont.

It feels like a really greedy practice

Let me let you in on a secret:

99.999% of opponents, when they look at an army that is not space marines, they have NO, absolutely ZERO idea of what the heck anything you have is supposed to be modeled like.

You could, and I have before to test out the loadout, put down a unit of nobz with big choppas and tell an opponent "These are nobz with killsaws" and they'd look at the chainsaw blades attached to sticks and go "yup, looks like a thing that is called a killsaw to me!"

This is your god-given right for playing a xenos army. Nobody knows what any of your gak is supposed to look like: play it with the rules you want.

Also, good lord if you're annoyed about nobz only having 4 big choppas, wait til you hear about every other army's heavy weapons guys. Scourges/Devastators/Havocs/etc - units you'd always only ever want 1 loadout for, but the box comes with one of each weapon :^)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:

beast_gts wrote:
Rules change. Look at the Index entries for Orks - Dreads & Kans only had one type of CC weapon.

GW should have the weapons on a separate sprue to the bodies (and they used to do this).

The most annoying example about orks kits and wargear that comes with them is definitely the Killa Kanz box. 3 Kanz and 4 different ranged weapons when ALL ork players, always in any edition, want to play with a single type of weapon per squad. It means that even buying 3 box of Kanz the player would have 9 Kanz, which are a lot of models for a niche unit, if it goes WYSIWYG he could only field units of 3 kanz with the same weapon. Unless converting stuff or proxying, fielding a single max unit of kanz with appropriate wargear means buying 6 boxes of those and having 18 models in total, lol. For a unit that is almost impossible to field in multiple units (so 5 or 6 at most out of those 18), even in a casual but still fairly optimized list.

Drukhari scourges are in the same boat. They need 4 boxes and 20 models in total just to play the min squad of 5 dudes all with the same weapon.

Or, wild idea here, if you're buying killa kanz you probably also have a few ork boyz boxes right?

And you know those ork boyz boxes come with one of each special weapon in each one, which nobody ever uses.

So you just take the killa kan ranged weapon, and you cut the tip of it off, and you glue the rokkit from the boyz rokkit launcha or the barrel from the boyz big shoota right on there, and badda bing badda boom you got yourself a nice specialized killa kanz squad.

Works for everything except grotzookas, which gw has helpfully kept garbage for 2 editions so you don't have to worry about it.

GW: They got your back!

Careful, if you think about it too hard, GW will read your mind...and change the rules to limit your choices.

"Any model may take a special weapon, but only 1 of each special weapon may be chosen per unit"

the_scotsman wrote:


Or, wild idea here, if you're buying killa kanz you probably also have a few ork boyz boxes right?

And you know those ork boyz boxes come with one of each special weapon in each one, which nobody ever uses.

So you just take the killa kan ranged weapon, and you cut the tip of it off, and you glue the rokkit from the boyz rokkit launcha or the barrel from the boyz big shoota right on there, and badda bing badda boom you got yourself a nice specialized killa kanz squad.

Works for everything except grotzookas, which gw has helpfully kept garbage for 2 editions so you don't have to worry about it.

GW: They got your back!

That's exactly what I did, rokkits are super easy to find since many kits have them.

Even non counting those missiles from dreads kits because you want to magnetized all the options for those walkers and rokkits from the boyz kits because they are the easy way to build tankbustas, there's still a rokkit in lootas/burnas kits and several kombi rokkits in nobz and meganobz kits, which are the bitz I used. I also needed to convert kombi weapons for kitbashing Flash Gitz so cutting those rokkits had even a purpose

Big shootas are also super easy to find as those ones included in the boyz and lootas/burnas kits are already redundant for infantry models. Skorchas are never used, and I haven't magnetized any on my kanz, but I guess cutting some spared burnas could be acceptable.

About grotzookas I've magnetized KMBs since in 7th were a legit option, now removed. If grotzookas become viable again I just use those KMBs as acceptable proxy. There are tons of KMBs in other kits that will likely live in the bitz box forever unless using them for something creative, like a proxy for grotzookas.

A long time player with tons of bitz and some experience in converting/magnetizing models can get away with that, someone that starts collecting orks could struggle as he'd have to buy some kits that he doesn't want just to have the bitz to play as intended. Converting/magnetizing also comes after being into the hobby for a while.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

Kayback wrote:
MONEY!

I do wish they had better bits kits for sale though.

exlusivly this.

GW is not a game company, it is a miniture company. Their primary goal is to sell boxes and lots of boxes.

This. GW have made it very clear over the years - both implicitly and explicitly - that they don't prioritise the gaming aspect. The game is a fun supplementary thing you can do once you've built and painted your minis; to them it isn't, and never has been, the purpose of the minis. Sure, there's an economic angle too, but I think it's mostly that their main goal is to make the coolest looking models they can. They've steered away from providing duplicates of the exact same part of a single sprue (see: the old Cadian infantry) and producing number unique special weapons for a single kit is a waste of design time, box space and plastic. Rules change, things can be proxied.

Well.. i dont have a ton of bits and seemingly getting my hands of big choppas isnt that easy. Next to Nobz, im not quite sure where they appear. They dont show up with boyz nor stormboyz, nor anywhere really.

Maybe their focus is the sale of minis and they disregard the gaming part, but most who collect warhammer do so with intention to play, so their focus is basically the opposite of the players.

Still, it seems greedy to not allow me to field the kit i want from the get go when their own rules, states i can do it.

If i CAN field 4 dread saws on a Deff Dread, by the love of Gork (or possibly Mork), i effing should from the start.

3rd Party Companies are your friend...

Kromlech has a lot of Ork stuff. Spellcrow has a bit. Here's some stuff I was able to find that might help:

https://bitsofwar.com/home/412-legionary-chain-axes.html

https://www.conversionworld.de/index.php?pageId=produkt&language=en&id=36&kategorie=Bitz%20by%20Type&tag3=Melee%20Weapons&tag2=Axes

https://www.shapeways.com/product/XCHXFQ9FP/warhammer-chainaxe-x3?optionId=61458422&li=shops

https://www.shapeways.com/product/CUT6Q3BP2/warhammer-40k-chain-axe-37-5mm-x5?optionId=75364074&li=shops

Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

Yes, how dare people expect the product they buy large amounts of money for to have enough bits.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

How the hell do you figure that?

Not everyone has a big bitz box or even any bits if they are new. Kit bashing and converting is also not always in everyone's skillset.

I've been playing since 2nd Ed and I'm not too good at scratch
building big weapons.

Kayback wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

How the hell do you figure that?

Not everyone has a big bitz box or even any bits if they are new. Kit bashing and converting is also not always in everyone's skillset.

I've been playing since 2nd Ed and I'm not too good at scratch
building big weapons.

I'd be more understanding if GW offered bits for sale (which I understand they used to) or they didn't charge such exorbitant prices.

But when I can get 18 high-quality minis for $35, with pretty much all the options, from Spiral Arms Studios... Well, compare that to $55 for five Havocs, that include two of each heavy except the best one, which only has one.

Edit: In GW's defense, their models are decently bigger, and generally very high quality... But they're also $11 a pop, compared to $1.95.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

O! v tochku popal!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:
Something that really struck a nerve with me when I started collecting warhammer 40k a few months ago, was that when i got a unit package, that package never came with all the options i could make that unit. And theres no otherwise service of getting additional bits from GWs side at least, barring from buying another package.


For instance, lets say you want 5 Nobz with Big Choppas. well thats too bad, because the package only gives you 4.

Say you want a Deff Dread with 4 Dread saws. Too bad because the package only gives you 2, and 2 additional Dread Klaws. Meaning, you need to buy 2 Deff dread packages just to field 1 Deff dread with 4 Kill Saws.

How come, GW does that? it seems like a super gakky economics policy. Specially with the Big Choppa thing for Nobz and the like. Why on earth wouldnt they fit at least 1 more Big Choppa to finish the set? If you go for a Nobz mob of 10, that would mean 8 of them have Big Choppas, and the remaining 2 dont.

I wouldnt mind this way of building packages from GWs side if they actually sold spare bits from their regular website or regular spare bits were easy to come by but they dont.

It feels like a really greedy practice

Lolz, It is funny to me because I am completly opposite!
It always bothered me WHY when I put the models together there are pieces LEFT OVER! Like... WHAT A WASTE! I want this cool weapon, and this cool weapon, so 2 left arms but only one torso...
It bothered me back from the first kit I ever put together, and bothers me still.

So now, I have tons of bits, and that makes me happy because more quality materials for conversions!
Granted, I focus on hobby and not the game.

If you want one of a weapon, just convert it, that has always been encouraged in the hobby

 JNAProductions wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

Yes, how dare people expect the product they buy large amounts of money for to have enough bits.

No one would bat an eye if they actually had upgrade sprues that you need to pay extra money for.

The demand is there, and customers' been requesting for that demand to be fulfilled, and GW has not delivered. Still.

This is GW's current attitude:

Customer: "Lucky Charms doesn't have enough marshmallows."
GW: "Go buy another box of Lucky Charms and go pick out the marshmallows."
Customer: "Yeah, but I don't need more cereal, just more marshmallows. Can you at least sell some marshmallows on the side?"
GW: "No. Go buy another box of Lucky Charms if you want more marshmallows. There are marshmallows in there."

 skchsan wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Basically, the problem is entitlement and growing infantilism in society.

Yes, how dare people expect the product they buy large amounts of money for to have enough bits.

No one would bat an eye if they actually had upgrade sprues that you need to pay extra money for.

The demand is there, and customers' been requesting for that demand to be fulfilled, and GW has not delivered. Still.

This is GW's current attitude:

Customer: "Lucky Charms doesn't have enough marshmellows."
GW: "Go buy another box of Lucky Charms and go pick out the marshmellows."
Customer: "Yeah, but I don't need more cereal, just more marshmellows. Can you at least sell some marshmellows on the side?"
GW: "No. Go buy another box of Lucky Charms if you want more marshmellows. There are marshmellows in there."

Love that analogy! BUT!
You can make 4rth saw blade for a can at home with just some trash and the fat of your hand.

YOU CANT MAKE LUCKY CHARM MARSHMELLOWS AT HOME!
And that is just terrible.

Sorry to derail, but is "The fat of your hand" a saying where you're from, or an autocor-wrong?

I'm a chubby guy, but not too-much fat that I'd want to spare from my hands.

 Mothsniper wrote:


Love that analogy! BUT!
You can make 4rth saw blade for a can at home with just some trash and the fat of your hand.

YOU CANT MAKE LUCKY CHARM MARSHMELLOWS AT HOME!
And that is just terrible.

...you sure about that?

Yeah a saw blade can be reasonably easy, but not all weapons are easy to convert, sometimes it's not something people are into, sometimes people want the actual original bit for visual consistency, and in more than a few instances the loadouts that are available on the sprue are not in any way coherent with how the unit will actually be used on a table (e.g. Devastators).

What's incredibly vexing is that GW has the galls to tell you how to "play" (in terms of modelling and painting) with your own plastic toys that you paid for.

The very concept of 'illegal conversion' is beyond me.

I don't...just make a nob with two choppas, one that's slightly bigger than the other and tell your opponent he's got a big choppa and a choppa? what? I mean if you really really must have an OFFICIAL, GAMES WORKSHOP RECOGNIZED big choppa then there's one in the biker kit, but like.... it's just a slightly bigger choppa. Who the heck is gonna know? it's orks.

shmvo wrote:
GW have made it very clear over the years - both implicitly and explicitly - that they don't prioritise the gaming aspect. The game is a fun supplementary thing you can do once you've built and painted your minis; to them it isn't, and never has been, the purpose of the minis.

This feels like Macdonalds saying "it's always been about the salads!"

Or

There seems to be a slight discrepancy between what they say and what they do.

shmvo wrote:
This. GW have made it very clear over the years - both implicitly and explicitly - that they don't prioritise the gaming aspect. The game is a fun supplementary thing you can do once you've built and painted your minis; to them it isn't, and never has been, the purpose of the minis.

And yet GW has the galls to tell you what you can or can't do to your own mini's.

 Vermis wrote:

shmvo wrote:
GW have made it very clear over the years - both implicitly and explicitly - that they don't prioritise the gaming aspect. The game is a fun supplementary thing you can do once you've built and painted your minis; to them it isn't, and never has been, the purpose of the minis.

This feels like Macdonalds saying "it's always been about the salads!"

Or

There seems to be a slight discrepancy between what they say and what they do.

Considering they didn't even patch their rules post launch until 8th edition, I think it's pretty obvious that them paying even the bare minimum attention to the gaming aspect is pretty recent. It's a mistake to think of it as GW doing X, or GW enforcing Y; it's many different sub-departments with different agendas.

When they produce new minis, they don't start with the gaming. Video games like Overwatch, MOBAs etc. are a good example of a game-focused design approach; they start with the question: What new thing can we introduce in order to make the game meta interesting/ balanced/ fun? And they design mechanics to achieve that goal. The visual design of whatever character they introduce is set-dressing for the delivery of a game mechanic. GW operates in the opposite direction: They ask the question: What new models can we design that look cool, are different and exciting visually, and that people would want to paint? In order to answer that question, they produce new lore and models, which get dumped on the game designers who are told "come up with rules for this".

I'm not being a GW apologist here; I'm not saying this is how it should be, but it's how it is. GW are pretty stubborn and resistant to change at times (often to the frustration pf their customers), and this is an area that could definitely do with some change. But making the assertion that they are doing a bad job with their kit design is wrong; they are doing a good job by the aims that they set themselves, and a bad job with their rules design (which comes after, and is what should be fitting with the kits, not the other way around). If you want to criticise something, criticise the fact that they don't consider the gaming aspect central to their kit design.

 skchsan wrote:

shmvo wrote:
This. GW have made it very clear over the years - both implicitly and explicitly - that they don't prioritise the gaming aspect. The game is a fun supplementary thing you can do once you've built and painted your minis; to them it isn't, and never has been, the purpose of the minis.

And yet GW has the galls to tell you what you can or can't do to your own mini's.

What is this in reference to? I assume it's tournament play, which I am have zero interest in quite honestly so it doesn't affect me...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Mothsniper wrote:


Love that analogy! BUT!
You can make 4rth saw blade for a can at home with just some trash and the fat of your hand.

YOU CANT MAKE LUCKY CHARM MARSHMELLOWS AT HOME!
And that is just terrible.

...you sure about that?

Yeah a saw blade can be reasonably easy, but not all weapons are easy to convert, sometimes it's not something people are into, sometimes people want the actual original bit for visual consistency, and in more than a few instances the loadouts that are available on the sprue are not in any way coherent with how the unit will actually be used on a table (e.g. Devastators).

Damn bro! Ima go make me self some munchshmellows!

I'm not going to add more to the above, you better learn this early, don't let GW or anyone else derail your pleasure in the hobby. If it bothers you that much, search the internet for a bits company that sells what you want. They are harder to find these days, but you can buy the exact piece that you are looking for. in the good ole days of ten years ago you would have three sellers on E-Bay that sold all kinds bits.

My club gets together once a year and most of us will bring our bits boxes for the others to have a rummage through (as well as bringing stuff we just want to sell or get rid of).

GW don't give you all the options in one box so that you HAVE to buy multiple boxes to get what you want. Pure and simple. It's ALL about selling the product. The game rules are a sideline.

It's really fun when you don't get *any* of a particular bit, like lightning claws in the old CSM Terminator kit. Or indeed when the bit doesn't even exist at all, like the power lances CSM Terminators could apparently wield in 6th / 7th edition...