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I think what will suck about all these nice new changes will be GW's ineptitude when it comes to working out how much they should cost.

Using Multi-Meltas as the prime example, right now they're not worth the points. At Heavy 2, suddenly very much worth the costs. Now put this through the GW balancing lens and you get something along the lines of...

GW Rules Writer #1: Boy. No one takes Multi-Meltas.
GW Rules Writer #2: Maybe we should make them better.
GWRW#1: Give 'em two shots each? That'd make 'em worth their points for sure.
GWRW#2: That sounds great. Let's do that.
GWRW#1: OMG! MM's fire 2 shots each now!
GWRW#2: You're right, we'd better put the points up!

It's an endless struggle with those well-meaning but rather hapless writers. They have such short-termed memories that they'll forget why they made something powerful, and ruin what they changed by repeating the same problems.

We will see. I think they may go up slightly, so long as the points increase is no more than 5pts. If they raise the cost of a heavy bolter to 20-25pts it will remain useless.

broxus wrote:
We will see. I think they may go up slightly, so long as the points increase is no more than 5pts. If they raise the cost of a heavy bolter to 20-25pts it will remain useless.

I imagine the plan originally wasn't to have the new codexes delayed the way they are, so I wouldn't be surprised if the points in the MFM are for the new version. The 30 point twin HB makes so much sense now. Same with 25 point MM.

Lemondish wrote:
The 30 point twin HB makes so much sense now. Same with 25 point MM.

Unfortunately you're using logic. Logic doesn't apply when GW are pricing things.

There's an even to very good chance that the person who ends up (or ended up, given the book was likely completed ages ago) writing the points for the Heavy Bolter in the Marine 'Dex either:

1. Doesn't know about the new points cost and just pulls a new one, potentially higher or lower, from out of the thin air.
2. Sees the current cost, goes "OMG! The HB is so powerful now!", and puts the cost up further, not realising that it already got a points bump a few months prior.

I'm surprised to see blade guard vets in all the top marine lists.

I was sleeping on them because of their awkward unit size, guess they would help out a lot in the mirror cutting down standard primaris.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lemondish wrote:
The 30 point twin HB makes so much sense now. Same with 25 point MM.

Unfortunately you're using logic. Logic doesn't apply when GW are pricing things.

There's an even to very good chance that the person who ends up (or ended up, given the book was likely completed ages ago) writing the points for the Heavy Bolter in the Marine 'Dex either:

1. Doesn't know about the new points cost and just pulls a new one, potentially higher or lower, from out of the thin air.
2. Sees the current cost, goes "OMG! The HB is so powerful now!", and puts the cost up further, not realising that it already got a points bump a few months prior.

"HAHA DAE GW NO LOGIC AMIRITE?"

This is getting old, man.

Doesn't make me wrong...

footfoe wrote:
I'm surprised to see blade guard vets in all the top marine lists.

I was sleeping on them because of their awkward unit size, guess they would help out a lot in the mirror cutting down standard primaris.

I have had good success with them so far. They can toe to toe with other elite melee and hold their own.

Who's the bright spark who thought Hellblasters should go to 8PL?

Screws up the Crusade lists I had made...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Who's the bright spark who thought Hellblasters should go to 8PL?

Screws up the Crusade lists I had made...

Oof that's a good point. I'm so hoping for an upgrade or two to hit that unit, especially the heavy options given how freaking cool they look lol

broxus wrote:
So with the new points changes which chapters and units came Out the best?

My top 3 biggest winners:
-Inceptors 120pts is a good deal
-Assault Intercessors at 19pts are a solid buy
-terminators

My top 3 losers:
-Devastator Centurions priced out of being competitive
-Scout squads no way they are worth 14pts now
-Thunderfire Cannons

Best chapters
-Ultramarines
-Imperial Fists
-Ravenguard


What new list concepts have you developed for 9th? What are the must take units now?

14 point scouts are not competitive.
14 point scouts with 2W are competitive

If all marines go to 2W the meta will be marine dominated making 2W weapons the big winner.

White scars will have the ideal marine killing doctrine.

Tactical and scout squads with a heavy bolter will be a solid choice.

 schadenfreude wrote:

broxus wrote:
So with the new points changes which chapters and units came Out the best?

My top 3 biggest winners:
-Inceptors 120pts is a good deal
-Assault Intercessors at 19pts are a solid buy
-terminators

My top 3 losers:
-Devastator Centurions priced out of being competitive
-Scout squads no way they are worth 14pts now
-Thunderfire Cannons

Best chapters
-Ultramarines
-Imperial Fists
-Ravenguard


What new list concepts have you developed for 9th? What are the must take units now?

14 point scouts are not competitive.
14 point scouts with 2W are competitive

If all marines go to 2W the meta will be marine dominated making 2W weapons the big winner.

White scars will have the ideal marine killing doctrine.

Tactical and scout squads with a heavy bolter will be a solid choice.

The funny part about this is that the meta has been 2W marine dominated for a little while now before the world ended.

Just as a melee beat stick hanging out in an impulsor, would you prefer the indominus captain, or a captain with power fist and plasma pistol?

 schadenfreude wrote:

14 point scouts are not competitive.
14 point scouts with 2W are competitive

The wording was all fully fledged space marines going to 2W. I think scouts are staying 1W.

footfoe wrote:
Just as a melee beat stick hanging out in an impulsor, would you prefer the indominus captain, or a captain with power fist and plasma pistol?

The Indomitus captain’s MC sword should do a good job mulching primaris equivalents. Power fist has a higher S and can deal with harder targets. Relic shield is a nice boost to survivability. WL traits and relics can also play a major factor and be taken into consideration.

In a vacuum, I’d go with the sword and board. He’s killy enough, and the shield gives him an edge vs. a number of things. The fist captain isn’t bad. Kitbashing one is on my to-do list.

Well, I'm looking for the old-school Marines getting 2W.
Then my pick will be Tacticals in Razorbacks in the first place.
No Primaris please.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm looking for the old-school Marines getting 2W.
Then my pick will be Tacticals in Razorbacks in the first place.
No Primaris please.

Primaris get an extra attack, AP -1 and 6" of range for 2 more pts per model. Tacticals therefor get specials, combis and heavies. It's not that easy a choice actually. Once we get the book we can do the maths, right now this seems to be jumping to conclusions to me.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm looking for the old-school Marines getting 2W.
Then my pick will be Tacticals in Razorbacks in the first place.
No Primaris please.

Primaris get an extra attack, AP -1 and 6" of range for 2 more pts per model. Tacticals therefor get specials, combis and heavies. It's not that easy a choice actually. Once we get the book we can do the maths, right now this seems to be jumping to conclusions to me.

Right.
Extra attack is not an issue as my tactics with Marines is to keep the enemy at arm's length if possible.
And I'm missing the special / heavy weapons for Primaris.

I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

Razerous wrote:
I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

Salamanders have a specific configuration that makes a Bike captain effectively unkillable.

Sterling191 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

Salamanders have a specific configuration that makes a Bike captain effectively unkillable.

Oo pray tell? How unkillable??

Razerous wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

Salamanders have a specific configuration that makes a Bike captain effectively unkillable.

Oo pray tell? How unkillable??

T7 with a permanent -1 to wound behind a 3++/5+++ and character protection.

Razerous wrote:
I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

They essentially preform the same role. Between nerfs to planes, objectives not being allowed to be on terrain and the 5" vertical engage range bikes are a lot better by comparison. You also get the bonus toughness and wound which helps.

 Blood Hawk wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I'm thinking about Melee captains, previously they had jump packs however now I'm seeing biker captains.

Can anyone explain why or the difference? Or do they perform different roles?

They essentially preform the same role. Between nerfs to planes, objectives not being allowed to be on terrain and the 5" vertical engage range bikes are a lot better by comparison. You also get the bonus toughness and wound which helps.

It's a tough call between the two, bikers actually move faster, but JP Cpt. allows you to jump directly over a large piece of ruin or obstacle, while biker Cpt. need to drive around it.

On the other hand, if you are White Scar, then this is not a problem, just take that relic bike and you get both benefit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not tournament legal.

Something people tend to misinterpret as meaning not matched play legal, which is of course a complete falsehood.

Rule of 3 was suggestion for tournaments. Saw many 8ed games without it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lemondish wrote:

broxus wrote:
We will see. I think they may go up slightly, so long as the points increase is no more than 5pts. If they raise the cost of a heavy bolter to 20-25pts it will remain useless.

I imagine the plan originally wasn't to have the new codexes delayed the way they are, so I wouldn't be surprised if the points in the MFM are for the new version. The 30 point twin HB makes so much sense now. Same with 25 point MM.

The point costs for mfm and codexes were set before　covid so to do like that would show gw designers would be seriously incompetent with zero idea of game design basics...which albeit is not that unlikely.

If they have even slight pretence of professionalism point values are value now rather than in future. Tac's aren't 18 in mfm either. Would be silly to have weapons be based on future stats.

Then again we are talking about　gw where shouting waaagh in interview counts more　than talent.

That's some mighty thin conspiracy theory bs there, mate.

But I can see you just have an axe to grind. Need a hug?

 wuestenfux wrote:

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, I'm looking for the old-school Marines getting 2W.
Then my pick will be Tacticals in Razorbacks in the first place.
No Primaris please.

Primaris get an extra attack, AP -1 and 6" of range for 2 more pts per model. Tacticals therefor get specials, combis and heavies. It's not that easy a choice actually. Once we get the book we can do the maths, right now this seems to be jumping to conclusions to me.

Right.
Extra attack is not an issue as my tactics with Marines is to keep the enemy at arm's length if possible.
And I'm missing the special / heavy weapons for Primaris.

I'm thinking that extra attack'll be more or less valuable depending on your chapter. WS and BA's will benifit from having intercessors due to their chapter abilty favoring close combat. (space wolves might actually want to take first born over intercessorsby virtue of a -1 AP on GH chainswords)

Yeah, i'm playing Black Templars with a slight emphasis on melee. By the time i'm in assault doctrine i want my I tercessors stuck in to profit from the super doctrine. That extra attack gets additional value there. That's what i mean though, up until now Primaris were just plain better. Now not so much, it's an actual decission to make (outside taste and nostalgia).

tneva82 wrote:
Rule of 3 was suggestion for tournaments. Saw many 8ed games without it?

In no way contradicts my point.

Why I see people running 10 infiltrators/incursor in their WS list, can someone explain me how do they work on field?