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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
So, let me get this straight:

9th Edition has been around for about a month.
Today they announced Space Marines are getting an extra wound, and that everyone is getting a buff on weapons.
And now this is a crisis and screws everything up.
...right.

Everyone one thats Imperial or uses Imperial Weapons is gettinf new weapon stats Xeno players have to wait untill their codex's for any updates from the way GW wrote the artical, I think that's what's pissing more people off is GW basically telegraphed that we won't have decent balance for probably going on over a year.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




That strange, because when GK had an aweful codex and the marine book wasn't much better comparing to armies like Inari or eldar, the same xeno players told everyone to chill and wait for the next update. Why can't they wait for their books? I had to wait 2 years for a good rules update.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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I always find it funny how riled up on GW's behalf the white knights will get at the idea of a company making record profits being held accountable to some kind of quality control and proof reading, when companies of far, far, far smaller teams almost universally manage to write better written, more balanced rules - probably because if they didn't, they'd go out of business pretty quick.

Karol wrote:
That strange, because when GK had an aweful codex and the marine book wasn't much better comparing to armies like Inari or eldar, the same xeno players told everyone to chill and wait for the next update. Why can't they wait for their books? I had to wait 2 years for a good rules update.

Funny, all I ever saw defending waiting for the GK 'dex were Marine players saying "they'll be fixed when they're Primaris bro."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 11:01:19


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Karol wrote:
That strange, because when GK had an aweful codex and the marine book wasn't much better comparing to armies like Inari or eldar, the same xeno players told everyone to chill and wait for the next update. Why can't they wait for their books? I had to wait 2 years for a good rules update.


Tbf, the complaints were still there, the core issue is GW refusing to update all armies at once to a playable level.
Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Arbitrator wrote:
I always find it funny how riled up on GW's behalf the white knights will get at the idea of a company making record profits being held accountable to some kind of quality control and proof reading, when companies of far, far, far smaller teams almost universally manage to write better written, more balanced rules - probably because if they didn't, they'd go out of business pretty quick.


I'd exalt more then once if i could.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 11:04:04


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 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Not Online!!! wrote:

Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.

It's also doesn't help that for every complaint, there's a dozen Marine players running in to defend them. People still bemoan Eldar and Tau to this day, but at a casual level they were never anywhere as popular as Imperial armies were, and even Marines at their worst still had the majority of the fandom main'ing them. The complaints about Tau/Eldar were rightly being pitched, up and down places like Dakka and Facebook, but they didn't have the amount of people defending them as Marines do now. GW inevitably has far more people running in going "omg these changes are amazing, don't listen to the haters!" whenever this discussion comes up, coupled with the enormous sales they'll be making both off casual and WAAC players - again, tournaments often had a sizeable chunk of armies being Marines even if they weren't good picks to bring, and now look at them, one only needs to see how much the Repulsor went out of stock.

Hell, considering the prevalence of Marine vs Marine games even at their worst, I'd not be surprised if most people genuinely don't see an issue when they're paired up so often anyway.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/14 11:07:29


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Tbf, the complaints were still there, the core issue is GW refusing to update all armies at once to a playable level.
Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.

If that is true, then all this up roar isn't people being angry about the balance of the game, but the fact that their army doesn't get the book first. If after the necron and marine book, the next codex is something like eldar, and it ends up buffed just like the marine book, I guess the up roar about 9th will die out. While orcs or dark eldar players will have to understand that they get updated for real every two editions or so. And am not claiming to be smart or smarter then orc players, it took me 2 years to understand that GW updates anything but marines and maybe eldar to be good for max 6-9 months. I fully expect GK to be bad in a year or so, but till then I am going to have fun playing. And others can wait till it is their time to have fun and good rules.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick





Karol wrote:
Tbf, the complaints were still there, the core issue is GW refusing to update all armies at once to a playable level.
Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.

If that is true, then all this up roar isn't people being angry about the balance of the game, but the fact that their army doesn't get the book first. If after the necron and marine book, the next codex is something like eldar, and it ends up buffed just like the marine book, I guess the up roar about 9th will die out. While orcs or dark eldar players will have to understand that they get updated for real every two editions or so. And am not claiming to be smart or smarter then orc players, it took me 2 years to understand that GW updates anything but marines and maybe eldar to be good for max 6-9 months. I fully expect GK to be bad in a year or so, but till then I am going to have fun playing. And others can wait till it is their time to have fun and good rules.

History has shown there is zero guarantee that the new codexes will actually be bringing other armies up to the same level as Marines are now. Hell, recent history's shown many probably won't be. There'll be winners and losers but just like Grey Knights in 8th, being crap doesn't guarantee you'll suddenly be good when it's your turn.
   
Made in is
Wicked Warp Spider




Iceland

Karol wrote:
That strange, because when GK had an aweful codex and the marine book wasn't much better comparing to armies like Inari or eldar, the same xeno players told everyone to chill and wait for the next update. Why can't they wait for their books? I had to wait 2 years for a good rules update.


That is strange indeed. I remember when GK players mentioned that the GK codex being bad and I saw Aeldari players sympathize with them and they hoped GW would resolve it sooner rather than later.

I would also add that the strength of the GK book compared to the Space Marine Codex was night and day. GK has had it especially rough over the past few years, but Space Marines went up and down depending on the season and whatever FAQ and hot new thing was in town. Codex: Space Marine never went as low as GK.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 11:13:03


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Made in gb
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UK

ive said it before and ill say it again. IT all boils down to money no matter what angle you look at it. Making it more balanced = profit. Fundamental changes to units= profit. Revamping a xenos range to keep up with other armies changes = profit.

GW is a company. The only function of a company is to make that sweet dollar. There are many ways to do this, but its never not about that bling.

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Made in gb
Twisting Tzeentch Horror






Yes. I agree with many people here that dakka makes 9th out to be the spawn of Satan spewed out of GWs donkey-cave.

Which it is not. Have you played it? If you have then you know how fun, interesting, and quite a bit more balanced than it was in 8th edition. There are still major major flaws - but they take the steps to fix them! I was absolutely blown away by the sheer amount of moaning from people on here about GW fixing Look Out Sir.

9th has been a commendable effort from GW imo. It is so much more fun than previous editions. And now they've revealed that they're making the changes necessary to try and reduce the disparity of units by improving statline granularity- and yes I think it's granularity and not bloat/power creep for once, like supplements BS were. And aside from that- it's going to make an absolute boatload of cash because none of us can resist it. Clever or no?

It would be lovely if the community on here could recognise positive changes and not grab their pitchforks every time the edition is even brought up.

 insaniak wrote:

You can choose to focus on the parts of a hobby that make you unhappy, or you can choose to focus on the parts that you enjoy.
 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





For me, the big selling point on new Codices is the Crusade content. Crusade is the 40k I've wanted since 1989. I don't really plan on playing any other type of 40k from here on in.

The second big sell for new codices is the consolidation of PA material into a core dex.

The third big sell for new codices is unlocking all the realtime updates in the app.
   
Made in ca
Mysterious Techpriest






Karol wrote:
Tbf, the complaints were still there, the core issue is GW refusing to update all armies at once to a playable level.
Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.

If that is true, then all this up roar isn't people being angry about the balance of the game, but the fact that their army doesn't get the book first. If after the necron and marine book, the next codex is something like eldar, and it ends up buffed just like the marine book, I guess the up roar about 9th will die out. While orcs or dark eldar players will have to understand that they get updated for real every two editions or so. And am not claiming to be smart or smarter then orc players, it took me 2 years to understand that GW updates anything but marines and maybe eldar to be good for max 6-9 months. I fully expect GK to be bad in a year or so, but till then I am going to have fun playing. And others can wait till it is their time to have fun and good rules.


Can you stop focusing on eldar players and Ynnari (thats how its spelt, btw) players for one second? everytime someone says something negative about marines you get here and start saying "eldar players this, Ynnari players that".

Yes, GK sucked and most people i talked to about them were hoping they would be made relevant as soon as possible because no one likes an army being as bad as they were. Now with the new codex releasing we can safely assume that Marines and Necrons will be stronger than the other codexes and that all weapons not being reworked at the same time will make it clearly uneven on the tabletop.

Am i saying that the next codexes won't help? No, i'm pretty sure they will, problem is that there will still be a delay between codexes where some armies feel clsoe to GK in powerlevel when compared to others (or have a single build that works, which isnt better).

Personally, i stopped caring. I'm lucky enough that i play with people that are fun to play with and don't mind building lists that are on close enough level. I realised that will all the screaming on here i actually started parroting it in messenger group conversations and being overly negative. I don't play tournaments so i personally don't mind losing games.

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Dakka Veteran





 auticus wrote:
The game does need some dramatic changes to be a good game. However... everyone shovels money at GW for producing what they produce. There is no incentive for them to change what they are doing because you all will buy it regardless.


Which shows that being a good game is not necessary for creating a desirable product. The game aspect of it just needs to be good enough.

They do have plenty of incentive to change though. Improving the game will help them reach a wider audience, and they know this. Hence the focus on more frequent rules updates and balance adjustments lately. 2w tacticals is further proof of this. It's hard for me to imagine old GW throwing out the classic marine stat line for the sake of making a better game.

--- 
   
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 vict0988 wrote:


But every change GW makes someone will hate and maybe only a minority approve, nothing wrong with putting your opinions out there. If everybody just kissed GW's butt all the time IH would be unstoppable and small vehicles would be unable to screen for Characters.


I'm a "white knight" (not self ascribed) and I saw the issues with IH. People don't have to make really silly over the top posts (that barely stop short of direct insults) to make constructive criticism or to recognize problems.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 16:05:24


   
Made in us
Steady Space Marine Vet Sergeant




San Jose, CA

Karol wrote:
Tbf, the complaints were still there, the core issue is GW refusing to update all armies at once to a playable level.
Also by the very nature of SM , due to the high population of that factions playerbase, if the factions get's op it is due to that nature a lot more oppressive.

If that is true, then all this up roar isn't people being angry about the balance of the game, but the fact that their army doesn't get the book first.


Karol, you have now begun your way upon the 8 fold path!

Whomever is not first, will always complain.

It is the way of DakkaDakka
Whining for the Whining God
Salt for the Salt Throne


I want my Flawless Host to get love, I want my Ynarri(all eldar) to get love
I want Orks, Nids, Dae......basically everyone but Tau to get love.
   
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Posts with Authority





 Arbitrator wrote:
I always find it funny how riled up on GW's behalf the white knights will get at the idea of a company making record profits being held accountable to some kind of quality control and proof reading, when companies of far, far, far smaller teams almost universally manage to write better written, more balanced rules - probably because if they didn't, they'd go out of business pretty quick.


I find it funny that despite this, people keep throwing money at GW while they complain.

All these 'better companies' out there, and yet so many people screaming and crying about how bad things are...

It's either Stockholm's Syndrome, or just an attention-seeking behavior.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ice_can wrote:
Everyone one thats Imperial or uses Imperial Weapons is gettinf new weapon stats Xeno players have to wait untill their codex's for any updates from the way GW wrote the artical, I think that's what's pissing more people off is GW basically telegraphed that we won't have decent balance for probably going on over a year.


That's terrible. If only there were some way for GW to announce a minor change to a faction to bring them a bit more on par with other armies- like some kind of system to type up those changes, and place them in a place where others could access those and utilize them or make note of those changes...

...kind of like a tool that you could also use to go onto a place and talk about the game with other people, or to watch pornography on demand, or even do shopping from the comfort of your own home.

Lament, for no such method of communication exists in this forsaken age. Truly this is Old Night.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 20:21:34


Mob Rule is not a rule. 
   
Made in gb
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Stevenage, UK

The thing is, I've always found the bigger and more sprawling the company, the longer it takes to get anything done, and the more likely that the end product quality will drop in some way from being pushed along by people just wanting to get it out the door. So if anything, GW would have more of an excuse than the afore-mentioned little guys that way.

With that said - I don't believe GW is so big that this naturally-occurring issue is insurmountable for them. They're big in the miniatures world, sure, but they're fairly average when you look at all other kinds of industries.

"Hard pressed on my right. My centre is yielding. Impossible to manoeuvre. Situation excellent. I am attacking." - General Ferdinand Foch  
   
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 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
...All these 'better companies' out there, and yet so many people screaming and crying about how bad things are...


Critical mass problem. Most of the people griping endlessly about GW here are probably people whose local community doesn't really see any issues and just wants to play 40k, so they feel stuck with GW since they can't find people who want to play anything else, and don't feel listened to so we're the outlet.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
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 AnomanderRake wrote:
 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
...All these 'better companies' out there, and yet so many people screaming and crying about how bad things are...


Critical mass problem. Most of the people griping endlessly about GW here are probably people whose local community doesn't really see any issues and just wants to play 40k, so they feel stuck with GW since they can't find people who want to play anything else, and don't feel listened to so we're the outlet.
this is correct. It's a simple fact that 40k is the biggest game with the biggest community. Sure there are other better games out there, but first of all, their communities are much smaller, and secondly, they are likely not the same scale as 40k. Something like infinity is great if you want to play a skirmish game, which 40k is not. There are a lot of better game companies and better game systems out there, but none that are really replacements to 40k in terms of scale. Maybe larger battletech games? But even then, good luck finding players for that.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







Yeah. It's exactly the critical mass problem. I've been fortunate in being able to kickstart side games, but if I just want a pickup game in the middle of the week?

40k or bust.

Though I must say, 30k is beginnning to scratch that itch for me. Same scale, and much more of a war(game) instead of a (war)game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 22:00:38


 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. It's exactly the critical mass problem. I've been fortunate in being able to kickstart side games, but if I just want a pickup game in the middle of the week?

40k or bust.

Though I must say, 30k is beginnning to scratch that itch for me. Same scale, and much more of a war(game) instead of a (war)game.

Aye tbf tho during 6th and 7th our 40k community pretty much dried up and by consequence the Scene Here became less homogenous.

Which is a good thing. But 40k still is King of the hill...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 22:12:25


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A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
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 Super Ready wrote:
Ahh nuts!! Big oof indeed. I did indeed mean Tom Kirby...

I'm not sure how Rountree could be said not to care about the game still when it's his changes that have led to things like Sisters returning, though...?

Anyway, back to the point. I completely see how dramatic changes are necessary for continued sales, but I'm not sure major sweeping stat changes are the way to go. The new edition's just attempted to wrap up a few things in the name of making games faster - changing stats across the board so that people have to look things up every couple of minutes would undo that for some time.


He didn't give a feth about the game. He cared about a massive consumer survey where something like 100k people asked for sisters of battle to be released in plastic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah. It's exactly the critical mass problem. I've been fortunate in being able to kickstart side games, but if I just want a pickup game in the middle of the week?

40k or bust.

Though I must say, 30k is beginnning to scratch that itch for me. Same scale, and much more of a war(game) instead of a (war)game.


Well, i suppose vehicles exploding instantly everytime they're targeted...or get near a bush would appeal to someone somewhere.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/14 23:43:10


2500pts
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 McMagnus Mindbullets wrote:
Have you played it? If you have then you know how fun, interesting, and quite a bit more balanced than it was in 8th edition.

You are wrong, it is obviously not. Gretchin, Guardians, Intercessors, do I need to say more?
   
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Cardiff

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They need two major changes to gameplay writing:
1. They need to write based on the D8 or D10 or D12
2. We need AA as the basis of taking turns
Those both would go far to help curb future problems


Stop trying to make ‘fetch’ happen, Slayer... neither shows any danger of being used for 40K, so constantly posting about them is kinda futile.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut




ERJAK wrote:
He didn't give a feth about the game. He cared about a massive consumer survey where something like 100k people asked for sisters of battle to be released in plastic.


"I don't care about the game. Let's ask the hobbyist consumers what they would like and invest serious money into making it reality"


Some of you are so deep down in your hole of GW hate that it is just sad.

They could release all codizes for free in their app and somebody here would create a thread how it is a ploy to get your user data or incentivise you to buy the models you now own the rules for already.
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
They need two major changes to gameplay writing:
1. They need to write based on the D8 or D10 or D12
2. We need AA as the basis of taking turns
Those both would go far to help curb future problems


Stop trying to make ‘fetch’ happen, Slayer... neither shows any danger of being used for 40K, so constantly posting about them is kinda futile.


There is quite literally a sci fi game that uses both of those mechanics already (Void).

Maybe instead of doing his best impersonation of Gretchen Wieners, he should give Void a try with existing 40k minis. But no, that would be too simple. Minis being agnostic to a game system and people trying things outside GW are just simply alien concepts...

If the D10 system is such a change (to be fair, it is. I've played a fair bit of Void) then there should be no problem converting people to that system, right? There's even a force creator out there for porting 40k armies over.



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""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die."

If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them. 
   
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Remove all reroll auras, remove all army/faction specific stratagems, limit all kind of army/factio bonus to 2 max, remove the useless "hit roll".

Then you also have to rewrite all units and weapons profiles in order to accomodate those changes.

When you're done, introduce AA per battle round and per unit.

Game fixed, space marines brought back down to everyone level.
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

Siegfriedfr wrote:
Remove all reroll auras, remove all army/faction specific stratagems, limit all kind of army/factio bonus to 2 max, remove the useless "hit roll".

Then you also have to rewrite all units and weapons profiles in order to accomodate those changes.

When you're done, introduce AA per battle round and per unit.

Game fixed, space marines brought back down to everyone level.


I think you’ll be sorely disappointed as you know none of this will happen.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






I think any talk of a non-d6 system or any form of AA should be done with recognition that it is strictly theoretical. Regardless of how good or bad such changes may be they are not going to happen within the context of this edition.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut







ERJAK wrote:
Well, i suppose vehicles exploding instantly everytime they're targeted...or get near a bush would appeal to someone somewhere.


You said this to me 3 times in 3 separate threads (including this one) and refused to engage with me on it, but for the benefit of any observers I will provide the same response here I did there:
1) Vehicles can't explode when they're targeted. They simply can't, if the enemy cannot penetrate their armor.
2) If the enemy can penetrate their armor, it is actually unrealistic how often the vehicle survives compared to reality. Many real-life crews would bail out instantly as soon as an enemy weapon penetrated their armor and damaged something vital. Indeed, you can find examples of crew bailing out of tanks even when their defensive systems function perfectly (there's a famous video of a T-90's active protection system shooting down a TOW missile, but the gunner bails out of the tank anyways in Syria).

Lastly, crews often bail out of their tank when it bogs down if the case is irreparable. "Getting near a bush" isn't enough to bog a tank in my local playgroup, but if it is in yours then it's perfectly plausible that a tank would become abandoned after bogging down irreparably. In 30k, this can only happen after the tank has been hit and damaged at least once by enemy fire - so, as mentioned above, the crew are probably not terribly excited to stay inside an immobilized tank with enemy anti-armor weapons already having proved their ability to damage them.

In fact, little details like tanks bogging down, armor penetration mechanics, etc. are why I say it is a war(game) and not a (war)game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/17 13:39:43


 
   
 
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