Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I do think we'll see Lost and Damned back eventually. GW's shown they're more willing to add new armies (AdMech, GSC) and whilst not hitting Marine levels of popularity, Chaos is still pretty popular. I doubt that the Gellarpox Mutants and Blackstone Fortress stuff was just done in a vacuum.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Kithail wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Kithail wrote:
Just play guard with guard rules with spikes. Meh

Hi , someone here that Played r&h , how about you play your army with another dex instead that doesn't fit. Would you Like that?

Been there done that. The guard codex fits with just some tweaks. What do you want in a R&H army that guard doesn't cover? Marks?

I can think of infinitely more interesting units for traitor guardsmen than I can for fething space marines at this point. Just off the top of my head, what would be cool:

-Mutant infantry
-Fantasy-style flagellants
-Crazy mutated/possessed ogryn
-Beastmen with 40k versions of minotaurs
-Crazy psykers who have a built in way to get bonuses like weirdboyz where the goal with them is to try and peril so they can turn into spawn/possessed
-Actual dark mechanicus representatives in 40k
-Semi-daemon engine'd guard vehicles

What do marines need? "wow better release another unit of guys with boltguns, don't have many of those. Maybe these boltguns could have...like...maybe they're like bolt SHOTGUNS so the kids we want to play space marines can get them cus' fortnite. We'll model one of the marines doing a fortnite dance, it's brilliant!"

You can Counts As pretty much all of that using the current Guard book.

 Platuan4th wrote:
You can Counts As pretty much all of that using the current Guard book.

Unless you want a multi-detachment chaos army.

The absolute least they could have done is a GSC-style rule that replaced doctrines and allowed IG as chaos, and it would have been enough for some creative converted armies. As-is, no, IG really do an extremely poor job standing in for R&H or whatever you want to call them.

The absolute least they could have done is a GSC-style rule that replaced doctrines and allowed IG as chaos, and it would have been enough for some creative converted armies. As-is, no, IG really do an extremely poor job standing in for R&H or whatever you want to call them.

Yeah, I'd hav e even been ok with a GSC style set-up as the minimum. I had so much fun with my 3.5 IW army, converting Guard to go with my spikey marines. I would love to do that again with my modern CSM stuff. I'm hoping they add something in the next CSM codex that allows it and isn't outright terrible. I have no reason to think anything like that is in the works, but it's been on my wishlist for years now.

I get wanting bespoke rules as a sort of faction "validation" (we all have pet projects we want done), but there's not that much stuff that you couldn't represent with the IG codex until GW gets around to adding a R&H codex.

Daemon allies is the big one, since that's just not an option. Chaos Marines, though, can just be loyalists of whatever chapter is closest to how you want your "Iron Warriors" (IH or IF, probably?) or "Alpha Legion" (RG, likely) or whoever to act. Cult marines are obviously out, but you can rig some "close enough" versions that'll do for an allied faction to a traitor guard army. Dark Mech stuff can be AdMech equivalents, which actually gives you more options on that front.

Rabble, crazed cultists, mutant hordes, etc. can be conscripts. The various flavors of "not-guardsmen" work fine as guard using the various load outs and regiments. Sorcerer cabals are Wyrdvane squads. Ogryn stats for orgyrns with tentacles (or spawn, they fit that "big, beefy thing that's going to punch you to death" category and you save yourself having to roll a bunch of d3/d6s every turn). Beastmen are iffy, as there's not much in the way of T4 in the army, which really only leaves you with buffed catachans (think of the +1 Sv being sort of like a +1 T?) or allied in melee scouts (heavier armor than normal, but bestigors were a thing). Bloodthirsty possessed tanks can just run the strat for better WS in melee (still a bad plan, but so is paying more for a leman russ that is slightly less bad in melee, so we'll call it a wash).

It's like my eternal project to make an army of actual veterans of the long war out of all kinds of chaos bits (and plenty of varanguard, if I can ever find a way to nab enough without selling a kidney) that uses Custodes rules (if Steve isn't more impressive than a random loyalist marine after 10,000 years of fighting and selling his soul for power, I think we might know who's next in line when sacrifice time rolls around). It's not ideal, but it works well enough.

Yeah, I've been doing Counts As for stuff we lost in Lost and the Damned since before the R&H lists were even a thing. Part of being a Traitor Guard player is adapting to GW screwing you over and moving on.

If you kick out the squad limits on BSF stuff, and maybe play with unit size as well, you get:

Traitor Commissar
Traitor Ogryn
Rogue Psykers
Firebrands
Traitor Guard unit
Beastmen
Negavolts (Dark Mechanicus)
Regular old Cultists


That's pretty fly. Again, you have to finesse it- squad sizes of 7 for your guardsmen, 4 for Negavolts and Beastmen are weak. The unit limit is similarly ridiculous- at one time, GW was selling antagonist kits and RAW, if you already had BSF, you couldn't use any more than what came in the box.

It's like GW intentional limited their own sales potential for no really good reason.

I play Crusade with friends only, so I can do literally whatever I want if I can convince my crew that it's reasonable, and changing squad sizes to incorporate a max of 10/ unit, and then kicking out unit limitation (beyond Ro3) would be seen as very reasonable.

Characters summoning Daemons, and corrupted vehicles is a bit harder to pitch. I want my BSF Beastmen to have access to shamans and Herdstone too, so that's a real stretch.

But either way, we are working with a pretty solid core. And I do believe, sincerely that we will get a dex. The fact that R&H wasn't reprinted in CA actually convinced me more, rather than diminishing my hopes as it did for some on Dakka. Had the reprinted, that would have been evidence to me that they intended to stick with a rather lack-luster status quo.

Looks at limited edition IA:13 sat on shelf...


Urgggh...the inhumanity

On the plus side, I really do hope we get a proper traitor guard faction. Proof of concept minis are out and it wouldn't take too much effort to make a codex i.e. use IA:13
.

 Trimarius wrote:
I get wanting bespoke rules as a sort of faction "validation" (we all have pet projects we want done), but there's not that much stuff that you couldn't represent with the IG codex until GW gets around to adding a R&H codex.

Daemon allies is the big one, since that's just not an option. Chaos Marines, though, can just be loyalists of whatever chapter is closest to how you want your "Iron Warriors" (IH or IF, probably?) or "Alpha Legion" (RG, likely) or whoever to act. Cult marines are obviously out, but you can rig some "close enough" versions that'll do for an allied faction to a traitor guard army. Dark Mech stuff can be AdMech equivalents, which actually gives you more options on that front.

Rabble, crazed cultists, mutant hordes, etc. can be conscripts. The various flavors of "not-guardsmen" work fine as guard using the various load outs and regiments. Sorcerer cabals are Wyrdvane squads. Ogryn stats for orgyrns with tentacles (or spawn, they fit that "big, beefy thing that's going to punch you to death" category and you save yourself having to roll a bunch of d3/d6s every turn). Beastmen are iffy, as there's not much in the way of T4 in the army, which really only leaves you with buffed catachans (think of the +1 Sv being sort of like a +1 T?) or allied in melee scouts (heavier armor than normal, but bestigors were a thing). Bloodthirsty possessed tanks can just run the strat for better WS in melee (still a bad plan, but so is paying more for a leman russ that is slightly less bad in melee, so we'll call it a wash).

It's like my eternal project to make an army of actual veterans of the long war out of all kinds of chaos bits (and plenty of varanguard, if I can ever find a way to nab enough without selling a kidney) that uses Custodes rules (if Steve isn't more impressive than a random loyalist marine after 10,000 years of fighting and selling his soul for power, I think we might know who's next in line when sacrifice time rolls around). It's not ideal, but it works well enough.

I've found that my Renegades & Heretics can be run just fine as Guard, but what I can't do- and would really like to- is ally in a small contingent of Death Guard to lead the rabble. Playing Death Guard models using loyalist SM rules is problematic enough, let alone when you start getting into daemon engines.

Even fluff wise, there should be more representation for Traitor Guard/Renegades+Heretics in game, because the bulk of rebellions and Black Crusades are based around them. Cultists are a poor reflection of the variety in the masses that are duped or willingly sell themselves to the Dark Gods, they're basically all the equivalent of marauders and the other warbands from WarCry showing the disparate masses that comprise a lot of Chaos' subversive might. Not having them in some way in 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.

What about a GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?

 Grimskul wrote:
Even fluff wise, there should be more representation for Traitor Guard/Renegades+Heretics in game, because the bulk of rebellions and Black Crusades are based around them. Cultists are a poor reflection of the variety in the masses that are duped or willingly sell themselves to the Dark Gods, they're basically all the equivalent of marauders and the other warbands from WarCry showing the disparate masses that comprise a lot of Chaos' subversive might. Not having them in some way in 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.

You're falling into that trap of thinking that falling to Chaos instantly turns you into a bespiked crazy person. If everyone went around yelling about blood gods at the first sign if thinking maybe the Imperium is a bit iffy then Chaos uprisings wouldn't get anywhere. As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting. Just because you think Tzeentch has some good ideas doesn't result in you completely forgetting what "First rank fire, second rank fire" means.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Even fluff wise, there should be more representation for Traitor Guard/Renegades+Heretics in game, because the bulk of rebellions and Black Crusades are based around them. Cultists are a poor reflection of the variety in the masses that are duped or willingly sell themselves to the Dark Gods, they're basically all the equivalent of marauders and the other warbands from WarCry showing the disparate masses that comprise a lot of Chaos' subversive might. Not having them in some way in 40k is like having Genestealer Cults literally only having purestrain stealers and the Patriarch as the models present. They're the toughest of the bunch, but like CSM they're not the ones that do all the legwork and fighting to subsume society.

You're falling into that trap of thinking that falling to Chaos instantly turns you into a bespiked crazy person. If everyone went around yelling about blood gods at the first sign if thinking maybe the Imperium is a bit iffy then Chaos uprisings wouldn't get anywhere. As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting. Just because you think Tzeentch has some good ideas doesn't result in you completely forgetting what "First rank fire, second rank fire" means.

And you fall into the trap of not actually having read the rules that existed or the background lore which ranges these from completly flying rodent gak crazy chaos empires to only recently turned aswell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about a GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?

There is an exemple of a turned to nurgle GSC .

Not Online!!! wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about a GSC style book?
Or, possibly use GSC rules and model things to fit?

There is an exemple of a turned to nurgle GSC .

In 2nd Ed, Chaos was the only non-Nid Ally GSC could take, too. They fluffed it out as Cults sticking together to protect themselves against the authorities as well as Chaos using any tool they could to create anarchy in the Imperium.

 Sim-Life wrote:
As people have said the current IG book is fine for representing Traitor Guard and you would just need to reflect it via conversions/painting.

It's fine for representing Traitor Guard, so long as you don't want to ally in any other Chaos factions, and if the specific kind of Traitor Guard you want to run is a just-turned Guard regiment. If you want Blood Pact, a populist uprising, pipe-wielding mutant rabble, or a Chaos cult (complete with daemons), you're out of luck.

I mean, there's a reason people liked the Lost And The Damned and Renegades & Heretics lists, even back in editions where there were no keywords or stratagems and so no obstacle to running Chaos Guardsmen in the first place.

Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.

My guess is that if we did get a L&D book, it would be closer in unit variety and mechanics to focusing on mutants, psykers, monsters and possessed, with a sprinkling of Traitor Guard copy/pastes in the same vein as Brood Brother units in Codex: Genestealer Cults (infantry Squads, HWS', Leman Russes, Chimeras, Sentinels). They'd then presumably share the same option to take Guard detachments as a <Traitor Guard> Regiment replacement.

 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.

Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.

Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.

None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized, equipped, and well trained as the Guard specifically because the whole point was to rep ill trained, ill equipped, ill disciplined ad hoc militias and cults. As I said, it's better than the other options, I never said it was perfect.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.

Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.

None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized and well trained as the Guard. as I said, it's better than the other options. I never said it was perfect.

Bloody handed reaver OR heretek magos both came closer .

Tbf it's a shitshow regardless especially if you allready had such an army...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Blood Pact are specifically mentioned as being based upon the Imperial Guard, so they're better represented by the Guard book than any other option we've ever had before.

Again, the Guard book is fine for all the types you mention bar allied Daemons(and even then, allied Arco-flagellants make great counts as melee daemons) IF you creatively use Counts As.

Disagree the baseline guard dex can't even propperly equip the bloodpact , since key Units are missing , Like stalk tanks at70 reavers and brigands.
Gore mages and possessed aswell.

None of which the L&D or R&H lists were good at giving them either AND the R&H list specifically didn't let you represent the fact that they were as organized and well trained as the Guard. as I said, it's better than the other options. I never said it was perfect.

Bloody handed reaver OR heretek magos both came closer .

We'll have to agree to disagree.