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It worries me that GW would produce red corsairs before EC and WE buy it wouldn’t surprise me.

I think they would be a great army but you gotta get your basics right.

It won't happen, and nor should it

 Marshal Loss wrote:
It won't happen, and nor should it

I am sure you know the meme of the WB religious nutjobs ?

Can we have one where they exorcise an obvious chaos primaris?

I think a large group 40K Players are heavily invested in the lore of the traitor legions. I’m sure if GW created the codex and the models the fans would heavily invest financially. It seems like GW are missing a trick in this respect. They have rolled out one loyalist chapter after another with success, I see no reason why they couldn’t do this with CSM.

My wallet is locked and loaded waiting for Emperors children.

Not Online!!! wrote:or gw could stop spanking off to Black legion and Red corsairs and finally produce a csm book worth it's price?

Yes, please. We've had enough focusing on Abaddon and various renegades. Let's see something that represents the other legions equally compared with them.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Breton wrote:
They’ve set up a couple doors to Chaos Primaris. The real stumbling block is Rhinos etc. if Chaos arhinos carry Primaris, but loyalist ones do not...

Could just be revamped chosen so csm chosen that are even more choseny coz primaris bile shenanigans.

I would be entirely happy if they'd release a set of slightly bigger and more ornate CSMs with *lots* of weapon options and called it an official Chosen kit.

How much more ornate could they get? Enough baroque trim already. Make them with armour based off of the Heresy marks, just make it look truly ancient, like its been in use since that time, because that's what Chosen are supposed to be, the most ancient and veteran of The Legions. For the same reason they should have nothing to do with primaris. They are the true Veterans of The Long War.

I agree that he could use some of his own units, gland hounds/new men and maybe some mutants. I always wondered why servitors aren’t in CSM. But abbadon wouldn’t allow bile to be the only one with primaris units. This is fluff based though not GW logic based

It's kind of already happened. Abbadon and Fabius are pretty much mortal enemies so even on the off-chance that Abbadon WOULD deal with Fabius instead of killing him on sight, I very much doubt Fabius would be willing to make anything for Abby. They're on completely separate teams at this point.

Tycho wrote:

I agree that he could use some of his own units, gland hounds/new men and maybe some mutants. I always wondered why servitors aren’t in CSM. But abbadon wouldn’t allow bile to be the only one with primaris units. This is fluff based though not GW logic based

It's kind of already happened. Abbadon and Fabius are pretty much mortal enemies so even on the off-chance that Abbadon WOULD deal with Fabius instead of killing him on sight, I very much doubt Fabius would be willing to make anything for Abby. They're on completely separate teams at this point.

*spoliers*

In Manflayer we learn how Fabius Was left with no choice but to agree (with the chaos gods via Fulgrim) that he would continue to fulfil the role of head apothecary for all the traitors in the eye, ensuring to supply new marines (And other services) for the armies. otherwise the long war would come to an end.

Yes they hate each other but they have a business arrangement.

I actually wouldn't mind seeing some stuff about renegade warbands, like the Magma Hounds and the warp-traveling Cleaved. Non-legion SM chapters have been getting quite a bit of material recently, so why not renegades? That being said, we need stuff for the legions as well. I'm still hoping for a sequel to Lords of Silence.

I'd like to see the original legions that didn't swear to a god get fleshed out. Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Night Lords, and Word Bearers. Each of those should be on par as a choice as the loyalists. Fabius could be the army where the physically buffed up marines are and make them a cult option for other armies like berzerkers, plague marines, rubrics, and noise marines.

Yes, and no.

The yes part for me is mostly a “if you play Chaos, by all means use Primaris models in your army”.

The “no” is given how canonically rare it is for Marines, let alone Primaris which are meant to be even more resistant to Chaotic corruption.

There’s also the current canonical issue of Traitors not having the know-how to create Primaris. Yes, Fabulous Bill is almost certainly working on it. But he’s not exactly the Carey-Sharey type. Particularly not when he and he alone might know something no one else does.

In time? Well, if an entire Primaris Chapter went rogue? Their Apothecaries would be able to name their price. Yet, their efforts are inherently stymied as in order to create a Primaris, you need the associated gene seed. No. Not merely the organs (though that might work in a pinch.

The Tratior’s best gambit might be to corrupt a few dozen Primaris, by hook or by crook, plus some Primaris Apothecaries. Then, create new Primaris over a period of centuries, purely to harvest and store their progenoid glands.

If memory serves, it takes around 20 years for both Progenoid Glands to fully mature to the point they can be implanted?

But, whatever the exact timescale. You’d need somewhere safe to keep your new creations absolutely safe, and absolutely secret.

Then, to use my (possibly entirely incorrect) 20 year figure? And without factoring in the presently unknown rejection and failure rate?

Start with 20 captive Primaris, with fully matured Progenoid Glands, and a single corrupted Primaris Apothecary.

Straight off, you’ve 40 new recruits for implanting.

20 years after. You’ve got 80 new inductees.

40 years (my age), you’ve 160.

60 years, you’ve 320.

80 years, 640.

100 years, 1280.

120 years, 2560.

140 years, 5120.

Then 10240, 20480 and so on and so forth.

So from a single corrupted Apothecary, one could create whole Legions of corrupted Primaris, given time, from just 20 original captives. If you can capture more, even if that single Apothecary remains your only expert, so much the better.

Now, the trouble for Chaos stems from, well, snootiness about gene seed. Would the Iron Warriors truly welcome any new inductees with Imperial Fist gene seed?

As for the Single Apothecary? Pretty sure Abaddon (the most pragmatic, accepting and least insane boss man Chaos has) would see to their protection, even if they refused to teach/train anyone else.

mrFickle wrote:
I think a large group 40K Players are heavily invested in the lore of the traitor legions. I’m sure if GW created the codex and the models the fans would heavily invest financially. It seems like GW are missing a trick in this respect. They have rolled out one loyalist chapter after another with success, I see no reason why they couldn’t do this with CSM.

The issue is that their main cash-cow (Loyalist Astartes) gets upset when other armies get cool or interesting things - look at how they reacted to the Kellermorph. Giving CSM players the things they've been asking for is not doing the important signaling that they want, which is to tell Loyalist Astartes players they picked the right army.

I think its inevitable, but it could be 5 years away.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yes, and no.

The yes part for me is mostly a “if you play Chaos, by all means use Primaris models in your army”.

The “no” is given how canonically rare it is for Marines, let alone Primaris which are meant to be even more resistant to Chaotic corruption.

There’s also the current canonical issue of Traitors not having the know-how to create Primaris. Yes, Fabulous Bill is almost certainly working on it. But he’s not exactly the Carey-Sharey type. Particularly not when he and he alone might know something no one else does.

In time? Well, if an entire Primaris Chapter went rogue? Their Apothecaries would be able to name their price. Yet, their efforts are inherently stymied as in order to create a Primaris, you need the associated gene seed. No. Not merely the organs (though that might work in a pinch.

The Tratior’s best gambit might be to corrupt a few dozen Primaris, by hook or by crook, plus some Primaris Apothecaries. Then, create new Primaris over a period of centuries, purely to harvest and store their progenoid glands.

If memory serves, it takes around 20 years for both Progenoid Glands to fully mature to the point they can be implanted?

But, whatever the exact timescale. You’d need somewhere safe to keep your new creations absolutely safe, and absolutely secret.

Then, to use my (possibly entirely incorrect) 20 year figure? And without factoring in the presently unknown rejection and failure rate?

Start with 20 captive Primaris, with fully matured Progenoid Glands, and a single corrupted Primaris Apothecary.

Straight off, you’ve 40 new recruits for implanting.

20 years after. You’ve got 80 new inductees.

40 years (my age), you’ve 160.

60 years, you’ve 320.

80 years, 640.

100 years, 1280.

120 years, 2560.

140 years, 5120.

Then 10240, 20480 and so on and so forth.

So from a single corrupted Apothecary, one could create whole Legions of corrupted Primaris, given time, from just 20 original captives. If you can capture more, even if that single Apothecary remains your only expert, so much the better.

Now, the trouble for Chaos stems from, well, snootiness about gene seed. Would the Iron Warriors truly welcome any new inductees with Imperial Fist gene seed?

As for the Single Apothecary? Pretty sure Abaddon (the most pragmatic, accepting and least insane boss man Chaos has) would see to their protection, even if they refused to teach/train anyone else.

Gene seed corrupts in the eye of terror which is one of Fabius’s key holds over Abbadon, Fab has a huge stock of our gene seed from the first founding.

If the used gene seed that had been exposed to the warp all SM would be like possessed and great possessed. Not all CSM was the taint of the warp in them.

mrFickle wrote:
Having finished the 3 newest Fabius bile novels I think CSM are definitely getting some kind of primaris.

The novels are set before the ones already written involving the blood angles. Except at the end there is an epilogue set after the events of all the FB novels and actually I think is set “now” in the 40K Universe.

At first I thought the novels were commissioned because A) Fabius is a Great character that can star in great stories B) the Creations of bile “army” was being released in psychic awakening.

However 2 things now make me think that both War of the spider and those 3 novels were basically a setup for CSM primaris.

A) as it stands the creations of bile army was more hype than anything else, the war of the spider book was very underwhelming for this new faction, it basically just enabled it.

B) the last word of the new books is about primaris marines and how abandon wants Fabius to get some for him, which feels like a cliffhanger for the next story which is Fabius makes CSM marines. Which was a bit disappointing.

I’m not saying we’re gonna get a straight up chaotic copy of primaris but........Something significant

Sisters believe in the emperor so hard they can take a lascannon to the face and live. If they can fall to chaos, I find it hard to believe primaris are somehow magically immune to it. A lot of them are from the era of 30k too and been stuck in a tube for 10,000 years. All that rational logic and science didn't keep half the legions from falling back then, I don't see why it would be any different now, especially with cawl using traitor legion stock that he found lying around in the basement.

And that's of course just for primaris already done. I'm sure if anyone can make the geneseed for chaos work, it's Fabius. You know, the guy who's been juicing chaos marines for 10,000 years. Chaos primaris are inevitable really. Even ignoring lore, they would sell way too well for GW to just ignore that potentially money maker, they're probably just saving it for a rainy day, I'd wager the molds are already done and ready to go

Yes inevitable, from a fluff and marketing perspective. CSM have been adding to their ranks but GW give the impression that all CSM are veterans of the long war. Primaris would paint that picture better, but it would be interesting to see if the CSM primaris are made by FB, corrupted by chaos or become traitors because somehow they see the fraud of the imperium

Aha!! Found them.
I knew there was at least one canonical source for traitor Primaris in the Psychic Awakening short stories. These two both deal with the Brazen Drakes Chapter, who are 100% Primaris having been formed in the Ultima founding.

This one shows their Chapter Master turning...
...and this one shows some returning reinforcements, seemingly unaware of the former's events, siding with their Chapter and turning on Custodes in the process.

 Super Ready wrote:
Aha!! Found them.
I knew there was at least one canonical source for traitor Primaris in the Psychic Awakening short stories. These two both deal with the Brazen Drakes Chapter, who are 100% Primaris having been formed in the Ultima founding.

This one shows their Chapter Master turning...
...and this one shows some returning reinforcements, seemingly unaware of the former's events, siding with their Chapter and turning on Custodes in the process.

I thought the brazen drakes just kicked off with the custodes but didn’t go full renegade

That chunk of them in the second story, returning to the planet? Technically, yes - but also, remember that Custodes are the voice of the Emperor himself, and hold pretty much the highest authority in the Imperium. Said Custodes also informed them that their Chapter had already been declared heretics.
They then chose to side with the Chapter knowing that information - they may not be chaotic, or heretic, but they fit the description for renegades and traitors just fine.

As for that first story, with the Chapter Master and what is implied to be the bulk of the Chapter at stake... that's... pretty cut and dried.

regarding how CSMs should be depicted, I've come the the conclusion that the legions should be second to warbands in focus..

BUT that doesn't mean legions should be ignored. over on the proposed rules I've got a thread about what I'd LIKE to see from GW re chaos rules.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/793076.page#10960020

where basicly the legion is the STARTING point of your warbands identity, not the end point

 Super Ready wrote:
Aha!! Found them.
I knew there was at least one canonical source for traitor Primaris in the Psychic Awakening short stories. These two both deal with the Brazen Drakes Chapter, who are 100% Primaris having been formed in the Ultima founding.

This one shows their Chapter Master turning...
...and this one shows some returning reinforcements, seemingly unaware of the former's events, siding with their Chapter and turning on Custodes in the process.

Where do you have the bolded information from?
The second story merely shows their Primaris reinforcements, that are meant to be deliviered to them - they seem to all get killed by Custodes. So the chapter left on the planet (which is also shown in the first story) is old Marines.
This is also supported by the actual fluff in the corresponding PA book, where they're old marines, too. GW even went totally lazy on them, made them paint themselves in Black Legion colors so every Brazen Drake you see in the Psychic Awakening book is a Black Legion Chaos Space Marine.

Ah! My mistake. Looks like I was getting the Chapter mixed up with the Silver Drakes instead.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:or gw could stop spanking off to Black legion and Red corsairs and finally produce a csm book worth it's price?

Yes, please. We've had enough focusing on Abaddon and various renegades. Let's see something that represents the other legions equally compared with them.

Crispy78 wrote:

 Argive wrote:

Breton wrote:
They’ve set up a couple doors to Chaos Primaris. The real stumbling block is Rhinos etc. if Chaos arhinos carry Primaris, but loyalist ones do not...

Could just be revamped chosen so csm chosen that are even more choseny coz primaris bile shenanigans.

I would be entirely happy if they'd release a set of slightly bigger and more ornate CSMs with *lots* of weapon options and called it an official Chosen kit.

How much more ornate could they get? Enough baroque trim already. Make them with armour based off of the Heresy marks, just make it look truly ancient, like its been in use since that time, because that's what Chosen are supposed to be, the most ancient and veteran of The Legions. For the same reason they should have nothing to do with primaris. They are the true Veterans of The Long War.

Imagine if the non-"black legions and god aligned legions" were also allowed to have named characters. Or legion specific units.
Yes i'm thinking of terror troops and that harken shouldve been a night lord lol.

My chosen aren't built yet but thats what i'm intending on going for. I'll mix and match MK4 armor add a few heads on spike and flesh/skulls for them but they'll still be wearing the armor they looted in the HH. The newer marines to forcibly join my warbands will be the new CSM kit, since theyre more suceptible to the gods influence, hence the chaosified trims and armor.