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tneva82 wrote:

 Brutallica wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
Based on the imagery I would guess:
1. Chaos Space Marines
2. Maybe Gene stealer

As already mentioned, the imagery is just a place holder and is copied from the rulebook (Imperium and Xenos respectively).

It will be Dark Angel supplement and a Xenos book, of which nothing is known at this time.

How do you know IT WILL BE Dark Angel and Xenos?

Let's see. GW said so? While GW might not tell everything when they do say something they aren't lying about it if it's not subjective thing(unit X is awesome! That's subjective thing and you can ignore it).

What you need to convince you if straight from company is not enough?

I mean in fairness the concealed titles for BOTH in 2021 might throw someone off whose not paying daily attention to WHC.

I look forward to Dark Eldar getting yet another remake of an existing HQ and bugger-all else.

 vipoid wrote:
I look forward to Dark Eldar getting yet another remake of an existing HQ and bugger-all else.

We got plastics, GW is bond to take something away from us, we don't get anything without having something taken away.

I still find it funny and sad how Grotesques have been one of the Dark Eldar's best units forever.
And yet are represented by one old ass monopose metal/resin model.
GW keeps given them good rules, but doesn't want to sell any models of them.
If there is logic, I can't see it.

Maybe GW doesn't want the general audiance to play dark eldar, and assumes that do want to play them in spite of that, are going to buy them no matter what the models are made of.

Karol wrote:
Maybe GW doesn't want the general audiance to play dark eldar, and assumes that do want to play them in spite of that, are going to buy them no matter what the models are made of.

A better reason than any I could come up with.

 dan2026 wrote:
I still find it funny and sad how Grotesques have been one of the Dark Eldar's best units forever.
And yet are represented by one old ass monopose metal/resin model.
GW keeps given them good rules, but doesn't want to sell any models of them.
If there is logic, I can't see it.

GW know that bringing out a plastic Grotesque kit will hit Crypt Horror sales

Karol wrote:
Maybe GW doesn't want the general audiance to play dark eldar, and assumes that do want to play them in spite of that, are going to buy them no matter what the models are made of.

Dark Eldar need rules more than kits. We only need HQs.

We, Citizens of Commorragh, are so used to convert Grotesques that sometimes forget we have a model for that.

Mandrakes are also not plastic, but that's only part of the reason they are not taken much. Then there are all the beasts, too.

The biggest thing I think the Drukhari are "missing" is some armor (i.e. a battle tank), but that's not really their style.

Still, all that isn't as bad as how far behind the Craftworlds have gotten.

GW just seem to be making “bigger”. I think all armies will need new models as to not look out of place

 Charistoph wrote:
Mandrakes are also not plastic, but that's only part of the reason they are not taken much. Then there are all the beasts, too.

The biggest thing I think the Drukhari are "missing" is some armor (i.e. a battle tank), but that's not really their style.

Still, all that isn't as bad as how far behind the Craftworlds have gotten.

I'd like to point out that Drukhari only seem to be 'not as bad off' as Craftworlds in terms of their model range because

1) Their baseline troops, vehicles, etc all got released in 5th ed as opposed to 3rd/4th ed, and there's an obvious quality gap between those eras

and, honestly probably the biggest one

2) Drukhari have 1/2 to 1/3 as many unit options in a given role compared to Craftworlds.

You've got like 12 named characters to 3. 5 vehicle units to 3. an order of magnitude more elite infantry units. more walkers/monsters. More heavy infantry variants. More generic commander types.

I hate the inevitable punching down that occurs when discussion turns to some random scrap dropping down from the constant 'my 500 pound life' viewing party that is the 40k release schedule. Both Eldar and Drukhari need support, and they need different kinds of support. Armies like Harlequins, Drukhari, and Sisters need more options to flesh out their gameplay and make it more interesting than "here's your one good option for antitank. Here's your one troop. Here's your designated HQ slot filler." Armies like Tyranids, Eldar, and Guard desperately need their hideous out of date lumps of plastic and resin from 2nd-4th edition replaced with modern plastic that's actually worth the premium GW asks players to pony up if they want to play the faction.

the_scotsman wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
Mandrakes are also not plastic, but that's only part of the reason they are not taken much. Then there are all the beasts, too.

The biggest thing I think the Drukhari are "missing" is some armor (i.e. a battle tank), but that's not really their style.

Still, all that isn't as bad as how far behind the Craftworlds have gotten.

I'd like to point out that Drukhari only seem to be 'not as bad off' as Craftworlds in terms of their model range because

1) Their baseline troops, vehicles, etc all got released in 5th ed as opposed to 3rd/4th ed, and there's an obvious quality gap between those eras

and, honestly probably the biggest one

2) Drukhari have 1/2 to 1/3 as many unit options in a given role compared to Craftworlds.

You've got like 12 named characters to 3. 5 vehicle units to 3. an order of magnitude more elite infantry units. more walkers/monsters. More heavy infantry variants. More generic commander types.

I hate the inevitable punching down that occurs when discussion turns to some random scrap dropping down from the constant 'my 500 pound life' viewing party that is the 40k release schedule. Both Eldar and Drukhari need support, and they need different kinds of support. Armies like Harlequins, Drukhari, and Sisters need more options to flesh out their gameplay and make it more interesting than "here's your one good option for antitank. Here's your one troop. Here's your designated HQ slot filler." Armies like Tyranids, Eldar, and Guard desperately need their hideous out of date lumps of plastic and resin from 2nd-4th edition replaced with modern plastic that's actually worth the premium GW asks players to pony up if they want to play the faction.

Actually there isn't a current Drukhari model available for sale that wasn't created from 5th Edition on. They literally had a reset of their entire line, and even have had things added on top of them. I won't argue about the quality of the sculpts because that can be subjective. For all intents and purposes, Necrons are finishing theirs up, and Sisters may be getting some more in the "near" future.

I was merely pointing out that the Craftworlds are in need of that reset themselves due to the preponderance of resin that still exists and GW has only been updating one unit an Edition since 3rd. I'm not dismissing the 'Nids or Guard in this, either, the Eldar just happen to be close cousins to each other and one of their most characterful aspects (literally The Aspects) have been metal/resin since 3rd Edition, while a lot of metal/resin in 'Nids have been introduced since then, even as recently as 5th Edition.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

They were playable and had models in the old Epic system.

I can only assume Eldar have been left so far behind because they don't sell that well.
But its also a catch 22 situation where they don't sell well because most of their models are ancient.

I imagine Necrons for example will sell a hell of a lot better now they have had a massive army refresh.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

so their appering as mini's doesn't shake up the status quo. meanwhile a loyalist primarch returning has HUUUGE implications for the status quo.
Look at it this way, if Fulgrim's mini pops up, it's big news for the fans sure, but for the setting it's less so as it's not going to, nesscarily have much narrative impact. A loyalist Primarch returning would change EVERYTHING.

if the Lion returned, for example, it'd COMPLETELY change the equation for dark angels. suddenly the whole "keeping secrets, secretly being a legion and hunting the chosen"

Or double it down. The interesting take is if they tell the Lion, the Lion already knows all (he already knows some), the Lion figures it out(most likely), or they keep it a secret from him and now have to keep it a secret from him AND the IoM at large which would be far fetched but entertaining for a Black Library book or two. Also the Status Quo I was talking about was a combination of power quotiient - 3 Daemon Primarchs vs 1 Loyalist should be a very short lived face roll, and leaves one side screaming about Smurfs being the favorite while the rest are the red headed step children etc. They get far more by adding one of each, or evening both sides up - especially if they take a rival or other drama source for Gulliman.

could be upended. as obviously the dark angels are going to be more openly cordinating with their sucessors, and what if the Lion suddenly declared "we have no reason to keep this secret. this is a shame for the entire Imperium to share in and to work at crushing" or simply was like "yeah whatever feth the chosen, new priorities guys"

and of course another primarch could completely change the Political calculas of the IoM (which is still shaking from the return of Gulliman) in short a loyalist primarch's return would alter FAR more because they're really GONE

That's another Fluff reason to do it, and make it the Lion. Lion and Bobby G do not get along. For marketing/tabletop they need to keep the Loyalist/Daemon Primarchs pretty close to even. For drama they need to carefully balance rivalries as well.

so yeah if GW is intreasted in maintaining the status quo they'll be less inclined to have another loyalist primarch return then a deamon primarch

their ENTIRE rivilary story arc was done and finished with them "coming to terms" with each other in the novel runestorm. Having the Lion come back and immediatly start challaning Gulliman would be, frankly, BORING, it's a retread of a story already told.

BrianDavion wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

so their appering as mini's doesn't shake up the status quo. meanwhile a loyalist primarch returning has HUUUGE implications for the status quo.
Look at it this way, if Fulgrim's mini pops up, it's big news for the fans sure, but for the setting it's less so as it's not going to, nesscarily have much narrative impact. A loyalist Primarch returning would change EVERYTHING.

if the Lion returned, for example, it'd COMPLETELY change the equation for dark angels. suddenly the whole "keeping secrets, secretly being a legion and hunting the chosen"

Or double it down. The interesting take is if they tell the Lion, the Lion already knows all (he already knows some), the Lion figures it out(most likely), or they keep it a secret from him and now have to keep it a secret from him AND the IoM at large which would be far fetched but entertaining for a Black Library book or two. Also the Status Quo I was talking about was a combination of power quotiient - 3 Daemon Primarchs vs 1 Loyalist should be a very short lived face roll, and leaves one side screaming about Smurfs being the favorite while the rest are the red headed step children etc. They get far more by adding one of each, or evening both sides up - especially if they take a rival or other drama source for Gulliman.

could be upended. as obviously the dark angels are going to be more openly cordinating with their sucessors, and what if the Lion suddenly declared "we have no reason to keep this secret. this is a shame for the entire Imperium to share in and to work at crushing" or simply was like "yeah whatever feth the chosen, new priorities guys"

and of course another primarch could completely change the Political calculas of the IoM (which is still shaking from the return of Gulliman) in short a loyalist primarch's return would alter FAR more because they're really GONE

That's another Fluff reason to do it, and make it the Lion. Lion and Bobby G do not get along. For marketing/tabletop they need to keep the Loyalist/Daemon Primarchs pretty close to even. For drama they need to carefully balance rivalries as well.

so yeah if GW is intreasted in maintaining the status quo they'll be less inclined to have another loyalist primarch return then a deamon primarch

their ENTIRE rivilary story arc was done and finished with them "coming to terms" with each other in the novel runestorm. Having the Lion come back and immediatly start challaning Gulliman would be, frankly, BORING, it's a retread of a story already told.

Yeah, I feel like it would also gloss over the more interesting dynamic of how the Lion would handle the way the First Legion have been keeping themselves occupied with the Fallen and Luther's recent escape in general. I feel like him being out of action for so long would make for a much more interesting angle given how driven the Lion seems to be when it comes to prosecuting the Emperor's will, unlike Guilliman who seems to be more interested in managing an empire and humanity as a whole. The Lion's arrival would really alleviate some of Guilliman's issues of being all alone, while also being effectively the new Warmaster for the Imperium while Guilliman can handle the politicking of the High Lords and particularly his problem with the Ecclesiarchy.

 dan2026 wrote:
I can only assume Eldar have been left so far behind because they don't sell that well.
But its also a catch 22 situation where they don't sell well because most of their models are ancient.

I imagine Necrons for example will sell a hell of a lot better now they have had a massive army refresh.

I mean, that's a bit tricky because that was the case before the 5th edition dark elder rework where most of their line was overhauled and given some of the nicer models we've had for an army for quite some time. So they've proven they're not adverse to putting the effort into fixing a model line that's having issues right? Though I don't have enough insider knowledge to say if the line sold well. But I certainly bought a decent armies worth.

BrianDavion wrote:
3 deamon primarchs vs one loyalist primarch is IRRELEVANT because they're not all in the same theatre of war. Also chaos isn't exactly united. I mean of the two deamon primarchs we have with plastic models right now one is a servant of the god of change, the other of the god of stagnation.

That was kind of my point about Guilliman Can't Be Everywhere and All Guilliman All The Time. Every time a Daemon Primarch shows up in a summer campaign or what have you, Guilliman has to be there, because he's the only one available. I will admit to being entertained to see people arguing with the UM player that some chapter other than UM should get a Primarch so another chapter can be the face of the summer campaign.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:


their ENTIRE rivilary story arc was done and finished with them "coming to terms" with each other in the novel runestorm. Having the Lion come back and immediatly start challaning Gulliman would be, frankly, BORING, it's a retread of a story already told.

They'll always have a rivalry. The depth of it will ebb and flow, but they'll always have one. They grate on each other. It won't be "Shoot your drop pods out of the sky" levels, but it'll be there.

The Lion already has a rival: Russ.
He doesn't need to be the Harem Protagonist of intra-Imperium pointless friction.

 Grimskul wrote:


Yeah, I feel like it would also gloss over the more interesting dynamic of how the Lion would handle the way the First Legion have been keeping themselves occupied with the Fallen and Luther's recent escape in general. I feel like him being out of action for so long would make for a much more interesting angle given how driven the Lion seems to be when it comes to prosecuting the Emperor's will, unlike Guilliman who seems to be more interested in managing an empire and humanity as a whole. The Lion's arrival would really alleviate some of Guilliman's issues of being all alone, while also being effectively the new Warmaster for the Imperium while Guilliman can handle the politicking of the High Lords and particularly his problem with the Ecclesiarchy.

That's what I said too:

The interesting take is if they tell the Lion, the Lion already knows all (he already knows some), the Lion figures it out(most likely), or they keep it a secret from him and now have to keep it a secret from him AND the IoM at large which would be far fetched but entertaining for a Black Library book or two.

But I don't think they'd be willing to let one be Warmaster - and definitely wouldn't call it that - and one be essentially the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:
The Lion already has a rival: Russ.
He doesn't need to be the Harem Protagonist of intra-Imperium pointless friction.

Russ already has a Rival. Magnus. Guilliman already has a rival, Lorgar. They all had multiple rivals/best friends. Few of them were universal.

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
3 deamon primarchs vs one loyalist primarch is IRRELEVANT because they're not all in the same theatre of war. Also chaos isn't exactly united. I mean of the two deamon primarchs we have with plastic models right now one is a servant of the god of change, the other of the god of stagnation.

That was kind of my point about Guilliman Can't Be Everywhere and All Guilliman All The Time. Every time a Daemon Primarch shows up in a summer campaign or what have you, Guilliman has to be there, because he's the only one available. I will admit to being entertained to see people arguing with the UM player that some chapter other than UM should get a Primarch so another chapter can be the face of the summer campaign.

Except that you DON'T need Gulliman to oppose a deamon primarch!

the deamon primarchs have popped up in the past, and haven't needed a primarch to handle them.

the grey Knights have engaged and defeated a deamon primarch on at LEAST 2 occasions, within the 41st Millinium alone. (3 if you count ritual of the damned where they had dark angel help and had to resort to orbital bombardment) The Space Wolves have engaged and defeated Magnus the red on Fenris, TWICE, both times without a primarch to hold their hand.
then there was vigilus, no primarchs on eaither side, despite being a very important battle

... and it's not like Gulliman "defeated" Mortarion who intentionally started wrecking havoc across Ultramar to draw him out.

BrianDavion wrote:


Except that you DON'T need Gulliman to oppose a deamon primarch!

the deamon primarchs have popped up in the past, and haven't needed a primarch to handle them.

the grey Knights have engaged and defeated a deamon primarch on at LEAST 2 occasions, within the 41st Millinium alone. (3 if you count ritual of the damned where they had dark angel help and had to resort to orbital bombardment) The Space Wolves have engaged and defeated Magnus the red on Fenris, TWICE, both times without a primarch to hold their hand.

Were they on the table top then? Just in Epic?

then there was vigilus, no primarchs on eaither side, despite being a very important battle

So you're saying when neither Chaos Primarch was there, Guilliman didn't have to be shuffled around. But when Magnus came back.. when Mortarion came back...

According to the wiki, Magnus has only been on Fenris once. in the 32nd Millenium, In the 41st he tried to warp in, but was prevented from doing so at the last minute.

But hey, if you guys want it to be All Guilliman, All Ultramarines all the time, far be it for me to stand in your way. I just think the other chapters should get a turn at the spotlight. I just hope nobody against another loyalist primarch return also complains about UM being some sort of favored Mary Sue Chapter or something as UM players say it's OK for someone else to have a turn too.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:
... and it's not like Gulliman "defeated" Mortarion who intentionally started wrecking havoc across Ultramar to draw him out.

I didn't say defeated. They work hard to make sure neither side is "defeated". We're still fighting on Armageddon some 20 earth years later, Damnos has had Necrons revive themselves more often than even Reanimation Protocols would allow for. Vigilus is still going too AFAIK. They sweep the big names in and out for the supported campaign/narrative/whatever but they rarely "resolve" it

I think you're looking at this from a table top POV Breton, but I'm looking at it from a wider view big picture "narrative" of the setting kinda view.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

They were playable and had models in the old Epic system.

Not in Epic Armageddon they didn't.

Maybe if you go as far back as Epic 40k?

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

They were playable and had models in the old Epic system.

Not in Epic Armageddon they didn't.

Maybe if you go as far back as Epic 40k?

Yep, they were in the original one.

BrianDavion wrote:
their ENTIRE rivilary story arc was done and finished with them "coming to terms" with each other in the novel runestorm. Having the Lion come back and immediatly start challaning Gulliman would be, frankly, BORING, it's a retread of a story already told.

Would fit GW then Their writing is about same as disney at it's worst with SW which was just redoing previous movies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

Were they on the table top then? Just in Epic?

Horla wrote:

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Breton wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:


except the deamon primarchs have never gone away.

Nor have they been present. They've been offscreen McGuffins.

They were playable and had models in the old Epic system.

Not in Epic Armageddon they didn't.

Maybe if you go as far back as Epic 40k?

Yep, they were in the original one.

Anggron had rules in apocalypse at one point in 5th(?) I think with no mini.

BrianDavion wrote:
I think you're looking at this from a table top POV Breton, but I'm looking at it from a wider view big picture "narrative" of the setting kinda view.

Well, yeah. The original post I responded too was suggesting a return of the Lion was why they were hiding the cover art.

Breton wrote:
But hey, if you guys want it to be All Guilliman, All Ultramarines all the time, far be it for me to stand in your way. I just think the other chapters should get a turn at the spotlight. I just hope nobody against another loyalist primarch return also complains about UM being some sort of favored Mary Sue Chapter or something as UM players say it's OK for someone else to have a turn too.

I would really love for another chapter to get some spotlight. Just not some 1rst founding chapter, those are annoyingly getting all the attention. Just bring back the primarch of a third founding or later chapter please !!!